GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[Walshawk]

We know the AFL media love a crisis. Right now it is North. Before this we have had GC, Port, Dees, etc. Changes were made and all have come through. North have 50K members and are financially solid, so that will be an easy three to five year fix with some player concessions.

AFL media attention is starting to turn towards GWS. In particular their horrible Showgrounds crowds. They are averaging under 6K. The lowest in AFL/VFL recorded history (excluding COVID and WW2) was Brisbane who averaged 6.5K in 1992. As a comparison, GC had 18K last week v Tigers. GWS best ever non Swans home crowd is 15K.

Footy Classified this week highlighted their salary cap/contract mess with guys like Coniglio (2027) and Kelly (2029, yes, really) on million dollar long term deals, along with Greene and Whitfield on similar coin. This will stop them being able to get Dusty or any other free agents. Given that most players would be prefer to be playing in an AFL city front of bigger crowds, I guess that you have to overpay to keep players.

Now that they are a bottom six club, crowds are unlikely to rise any time soon. They are stuck halfway between Sydney and Canberra. What can the AFL do to save the GIANTS?

Move to Canberra? When you take out the Swans games Canberra (10.5K) has higher average crowds than Showgrounds (9K) over the 10 years. When you factor in that the bigger clubs like Pies/Bombers/Tigers/Blues play @ Showgrounds, this is even more impressive. Are there really many potential AFL fans in NRL mad Western Sydney? North drew bigger crowds @ SCG in the 1990s. Sure, there are lots of people in Western Sydney, but most have little to zero interest in footy.

Focus on Western Sydney? Should they revert to their original name Western Sydney and focus on their supposed core area? Are they missing a marketing opportunity by not using the word Sydney in their name (it is always GWS or GIANTS, never Western Sydney)

Merge with a struggling Vic club? Given they only play eight games in Sydney, a merged club could keep that and play three home and five/six away in Melbourne, making it more palatable. With a Tassie team likely, perhaps the AFL could dangle a carrot, like they did in 1996 when Port was granted a provisional licence.

Or do they just be patient, and hope that is 10/20/30 years they can build crowds up to 15K - 20k?

 

[Mofra]

More Canberra games? I know people in Canberra who aren't GWS supporters but buy a second membership and go to games there

Homebush = Waverley.
They need to pay more games at the SCG, Swans rivalry be damned

 

[harper2bastinac]

Just let them be, they are having one down year and still have more then enough young players which could replace those finishing up, they may lose a couple layers every year to trades and f.a, but they are always well compensated trade wise. All teams have an up and down period but they will never be a crisis.

 

[Walshawk]

More Canberra games? I know people in Canberra who aren't GWS supporters but buy a second membership and go to games there

Homebush = Waverley.
They need to pay more games at the SCG, Swans rivalry be damned

That is my point, there are people in Canberra who follow footy, unlike western Sydney. More SCG games is an interesting idea. Would likely increase crowds.

 

[Kwality]

We know the AFL media love a crisis. Right now it is North. Before this we have had GC, Port, Dees, etc. Changes were made and all have come through. North have 50K members and are financially solid, so that will be an easy three to five year fix with some player concessions.

AFL media attention is starting to turn towards GWS. In particular their horrible Showgrounds crowds. They are averaging under 6K. The lowest in AFL/VFL recorded history (excluding COVID and WW2) was Brisbane who averaged 6.5K in 1992. As a comparison, GC had 18K last week v Tigers. GWS best ever non Swans home crowd is 15K.

Footy Classified this week highlighted their salary cap/contract mess with guys like Coniglio (2027) and Kelly (2029, yes, really) on million dollar long term deals, along with Greene and Whitfield on similar coin. This will stop them being able to get Dusty or any other free agents. Given that most players would be prefer to be playing in an AFL city front of bigger crowds, I guess that you have to overpay to keep players.

Now that they are a bottom six club, crowds are unlikely to rise any time soon. They are stuck halfway between Sydney and Canberra. What can the AFL do to save the GIANTS?

Move to Canberra? When you take out the Swans games Canberra (10.5K) has higher average crowds than Showgrounds (9K) over the 10 years. When you factor in that the bigger clubs like Pies/Bombers/Tigers/Blues play @ Showgrounds, this is even more impressive. Are there really many potential AFL fans in NRL mad Western Sydney? North drew bigger crowds @ SCG in the 1990s. Sure, there are lots of people in Western Sydney, but most have little to zero interest in footy.

Focus on Western Sydney? Should they revert to their original name Western Sydney and focus on their supposed core area? Are they missing a marketing opportunity by not using the word Sydney in their name (it is always GWS or GIANTS, never Western Sydney)

Merge with a struggling Vic club? Given they only play eight games in Sydney, a merged club could keep that and play three home and five/six away in Melbourne, making it more palatable. With a Tassie team likely, perhaps the AFL could dangle a carrot, like they did in 1996 when Port was granted a provisional licence.

Or do they just be patient, and hope that is 10/20/30 years they can build crowds up to 15K - 20k?

Wow breaking into NRL/RA heartland isnt easy - go figure.
One day the original plan, warts & all, will see the light of day, aka when the Demetriou era has no disciples in head office.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

I don’t think it’s fair to judge their crowd attendances this year. It’s literally been raining non stop in Sydney pretty well every dam week and weekend which I think is a huge reason they are so low.

Particularly with a relatively new supporter base and many of them involving young children based on what I’ve seen at their games previously, nobody wants to sit through the constant rain just to watch them and they haven’t grown the die hard supporter base yet.

Ignoring the past few Covid affected years, they were averaging 12k at the Showground in 2019. Double of this year. The rain and covid in Sydney are the reason for their rubbish crowds and not the club itself.

In comparison, crowds at the SCG from 2019-2022 are also down on average by 4K and that’s with the Swans being much more competitive now compared to then.

 

[madmug]

That is my point, there are people in Canberra who follow footy, unlike western Sydney. More SCG games is an interesting idea. Would likely increase crowds.

I thought we were waiting for generational change?

This is the big hope.

Looking at the NRL teams in the area as some sort of guide, the crowd averages for 2022 so far are Wests Tigers 11,600, Canterbury-B'town 12.700, Canberra 11700, Penrith 18000, Parramatta 19000. NRL average this season so far is 14800.

Interestingly the NZ warriors who are have been stuck by Covid restrictions average only 6300. I thought the Kiwi expats would have supported them better than that. It must be costing the NRL a packet to support them.

Given the Swans probably soaked up all the Greater Sydney expat AFL support years ago, GWS may well struggle to get anywhere near the Swans support levels. Looking at the NRL figures, above, the NRL crowds aren't that good either. People obviously don't do the 'go to the footy thing' that much in Western Sydney.

So generational change is the most likely thing to help them. Which generation & when are the questions.

If not, GWS may yet be a veritable financial black hole moving forward.

 

[Kwality]

I thought we were waiting for generational change?

This is the big hope.

Looking at the NRL teams in the area as some sort of guide, the crowd averages for 2022 so far are Wests Tigers 11,600, Canterbury-B'town 12.700, Canberra 11700, Penrith 18000, Parramatta 19000. NRL average this season so far is 14800.

Interestingly the NZ warriors who are have been stuck by Covid restrictions average only 6300. I thought the Kiwi expats would have supported them better than that. It must be costing the NRL a packet to support them.

Given the Swans probably soaked up all the Greater Sydney expat AFL support years ago, GWS may well struggle to get anywhere near the Swans support levels. Looking at the NRL figures, above, the NRL crowds aren't that good either. People obviously don't do the 'go to the footy thing' that much in Western Sydney.

So generational change is the most likely thing to help them. Which generation & when are the questions.

If not, GWS may yet be a veritable financial black hole moving forward.

Union (RA) is the Kiwi game not League (NRL).

 

[madmug]

Union (RA) is the Kiwi game not League (NRL).

One might think a few would turn up to support a stranded Kiwi team.

Anyway, that wasn't a major point in my post.

 

[Kwality]

One might think a few would turn up to support a stranded Kiwi team.

Anyway, that wasn't a major point in my post.

I've been to the Anzac Day match a couple of times between the Melbourne Storm & NZs Warriors.
Pretty much all the Kiwi support were Islanders.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I agree that the Giants should be playing all their games in Western Sydney (can't expect to grow a home-base playing 7/8 games a year), but I don't think they should change their name.

GWS sounded dumb to start with, but it's so recognisable now. I think there's a lot of value in the name now.

 

[Kwality]

I agree that the Giants should be playing all their games in Western Sydney (can't expect to grow a home-base playing 7/8 games a year), but I don't think they should change their name.

GWS sounded dumb to start with, but it's so recognisable now. I think there's a lot of value in the name now.

... Someone must believe GWS can service both Canberra & Western Sydney - polar opposite of the 2 Melbourne clubs needed to service Tassie.
How these people keep their job is one for the AFL Commission, not the administration.

 

[sherb]

I agree that the Giants should be playing all their games in Western Sydney (can't expect to grow a home-base playing 7/8 games a year), but I don't think they should change their name.

GWS sounded dumb to start with, but it's so recognisable now. I think there's a lot of value in the name now.

I agree.

One of the big mistakes made early on (which still continues) was to play some of their games in Canberra each year, it sent a confusing message about their commitment to the area they were supposedly representing.

 

[Canberra Pear]

... Someone must believe GWS can service both Canberra & Western Sydney - polar opposite of the 2 Melbourne clubs needed to service Tassie.
How does these people keep their job is one for the AFL Commission, not the administration.

I agree.

One of the big mistakes made early on (which still continues) was to play some of their games in Canberra each year, it sent a confusing message about their commitment to the area they were supposedly representing.

To me, it looks like the AFL has had Canberra as a lifeboat.

Ironically, having a lifeboat has put off a lot of Sydneysiders and increased the need for Canberra as a lifeboat.

 

[Kwality]

To me, it looks like the AFL has had Canberra as a lifeboat.

Ironically, having a lifeboat has put off a lot of Sydneysiders and increased the need for Canberra as a lifeboat.

Only the Hawks have made 2 home's work. Not surprising, strong management & a real business model.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Only the Hawks have made 2 home's work. Not surprising, strong management & a real business model.

I'd say the Giants have been relatively successful from a Canberra-perspective (and probably comparable to Hawthorn in Launceston), but it's been more detrimental to their Sydney base.

Hawthorn still has 13 games in Melbourne in 2022 (that's more home state games than any non-Victorian team gets) so I guess it'd been easier to sustain two bases.

But North have a similar set up to Hawthorn, so it shows you still need strong management.

 

[Walshawk]

I thought we were waiting for generational change?

This is the big hope.

Looking at the NRL teams in the area as some sort of guide, the crowd averages for 2022 so far are Wests Tigers 11,600, Canterbury-B'town 12.700, Canberra 11700, Penrith 18000, Parramatta 19000. NRL average this season so far is 14800.

Interestingly the NZ warriors who are have been stuck by Covid restrictions average only 6300. I thought the Kiwi expats would have supported them better than that. It must be costing the NRL a packet to support them.

Given the Swans probably soaked up all the Greater Sydney expat AFL support years ago, GWS may well struggle to get anywhere near the Swans support levels. Looking at the NRL figures, above, the NRL crowds aren't that good either. People obviously don't do the 'go to the footy thing' that much in Western Sydney.

So generational change is the most likely thing to help them. Which generation & when are the questions.

If not, GWS may yet be a veritable financial black hole moving forward.

NRL is the only football code not to suffer a drop in crowds. AFL, A-League, Rugby, BBL all down significantly. They are doing ok. And the Warriors are playing at the 10k Redcliffe stadium on the outskirts of Brisbane. It would be Freo playing at Frankston. 6k is decent. Certainly above GWS.

 

[madmug]

NRL is the only football code not to suffer a drop in crowds. AFL, A-League, Rugby, BBL all down significantly. They are doing ok. And the Warriors are playing at the 10k Redcliffe stadium on the outskirts of Brisbane. It would be Freo playing at Frankston. 6k is decent. Certainly above GWS.

The average is only 6300. Some 54% of ground capacity, so even at a 10k capacity, its only just half full!!! Access isn't really that hard, 15 minute walk to the local railway station. close to freeway access.
Anyway NZ have done welljust to keep going.
Your Freo analogy is quite wrong & not relevant.

Interestingly
NRL crowd average 2019 15804. 2022 to date 14834
AFL Average 2019 35133. 2022 to date 30697

 

[Walshawk]

Wow breaking into NRL/RA heartland isnt easy - go figure.
One day the original plan, warts & all, will see the light of day, aka when the Demetriou era has no disciples in head office.

The AFL expected North to go to GC, and when they declined they slapped together GWS to even out the teams. It was originally branded Western Sydney (and the official name still is), but after doing the market research they realised they no one in Western Sydney was likely to follow AFL, so the broadened the brand to the mythical ‘Greater’ to appeal to places like north western Sydney, where the Swans had a decent membership but whose residents (more affluent) did not consider themselves to be in Western Sydney. And then, even further to include Canberra.
GWS is simply not something that anyone identifies with. It means nothing. It would be like North changing their name to GNM, or the Saints to GSM. It is a stupid compromise and a major marketing failure.

 

[madmug]

The AFL expected North to go to GC, and when they declined they slapped together GWS to even out the teams. It was originally branded Western Sydney (and the official name still is), but after doing the market research they realised they no one in Western Sydney was likely to follow AFL, so the broadened the brand to the mythical ‘Greater’ to appeal to places like north western Sydney, where the Swans had a decent membership but whose residents (more affluent) did not consider themselves to be in Western Sydney. And then, even further to include Canberra.
GWS is simply not something that anyone identifies with. It means nothing. It would be like North changing their name to GNM, or the Saints to GSM. It is a stupid compromise and a major marketing failure.

Be careful criticising the AFL.

Just say'n

I mean why not just call it Sydney Giants??

 

[Billy ray]

Gee-Dub-S will come good. give it 10 more years before even considering anything drastic.

i wonder if they should play an SCG game or two when easter show is on, just to see what crowd they get.

3 canberra, 1 SCG, 7 showgrounds

 

[Kwality]

The AFL expected North to go to GC, and when they declined they slapped together GWS to even out the teams. It was originally branded Western Sydney (and the official name still is), but after doing the market research they realised they no one in Western Sydney was likely to follow AFL, so the broadened the brand to the mythical ‘Greater’ to appeal to places like north western Sydney, where the Swans had a decent membership but whose residents (more affluent) did not consider themselves to be in Western Sydney. And then, even further to include Canberra.
GWS is simply not something that anyone identifies with. It means nothing. It would be like North changing their name to GNM, or the Saints to GSM. It is a stupid compromise and a major marketing failure.

Not my understanding: I believe the Commission approved the expansion of the two clubs before the admin caved on North to the GC. It involved another club out of Melbourne to Western Sydney, i.e the same template - either way its history.
As for the GWS name, a similar argument was run over the West Coast Eagles, with all the WAFL clubs having suburb names, as befits a local comp with roots back to the 1800s.
NO one could argue the Eagles is anything but a major marketing success (not that you are, its academic). Only success will get the new clubs the gravitas needed to go forward, more so in NRL heartland. As the Lions have proved. its a tough gig, see the Melbourne Storm in the NRL.

 

[Walshawk]

Be careful criticising the AFL.

Just say'n

I mean why not just call it Sydney Giants??

Swans didn't allow that. Part of the original agreement. NSW Giants would be better than GWS Giants.

 

[Walshawk]

Not my understanding: I believe the Commission approved the expansion of the two clubs before the admin caved on North to the GC. It involved another club out of Melbourne to Western Sydney, i.e the same template - either way its history.
As for the GWS name, a similar argument was run over the West Coast Eagles, with all the WAFL clubs having suburb names, as befits a local comp with roots back to the 1800s.
NO one could argue the Eagles is anything but a major marketing success (not that you are, its academic). Only success will get the new clubs the gravitas needed to go forward, more so in NRL heartland. As the Lions have proved. its a tough gig, see the Melbourne Storm in the NRL.

Nah, the Roos officially rejected the GC move in December 2007. Following this, the league registered Western Sydney FC in Jan 2008, and the Commission approved GC & WS as 17th & 18th clubs in March 2008.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The AFL expected North to go to GC, and when they declined they slapped together GWS to even out the teams. It was originally branded Western Sydney (and the official name still is), but after doing the market research they realised they no one in Western Sydney was likely to follow AFL, so the broadened the brand to the mythical ‘Greater’ to appeal to places like north western Sydney, where the Swans had a decent membership but whose residents (more affluent) did not consider themselves to be in Western Sydney. And then, even further to include Canberra.
GWS is simply not something that anyone identifies with. It means nothing. It would be like North changing their name to GNM, or the Saints to GSM. It is a stupid compromise and a major marketing failure.

The AFL didn't invent the term "Greater Western Sydney", it was already in use as a government term to describe the group of 13 western LGAs.

The AFL didn't read the room that it wasn't in public use, but the term was never an AFL invention. It may have been somewhat effective though as the Hills Shire (nw) and Macarthur (sw) have two of their biggest membership bases.

I'm perfectly fine with the GWS brand, but I don't like the G branding. I think it looks like a Gatorade ad, and G-Man is a terrible mascot name.