List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part II

[lewdogs]

Geelong are and have been in a completely different position to us.

They are constantly in contention and can afford to keep topping up

Us topping up may get us from 10th to 7th if everything goes right.

They have the stars there.

I see it differently. We need to try to keep getting better. We have been attempting to build through the draft for years and it doesn't always work, we need a bit of both. We aren't far away from contention we still need to develop players but if you can get stars for free then it can make a big difference.

 

[Yawkey way]

It was suggested we shouldn't get him becauae we already have Bytel.

What’s the point if we aren’t pushing for top 4 and Mitchell just takes time away from the guys who will drive our next push. Let me see spend picks to make lethlean look good and cover ratts arse or develop a list that can content for years.

Just to be clear DeGoey will make us better but I doubt he’ll be free. Mitchell will make us better in the short term but is a sugar hit who will cost a pick and keep someone like windhager out of the middle. If things go pear shaped that could be our 1st and 2nd picks gone and don’t say it can’t happen or we’re not stupid enough, because it could and we are.

 

[gringo2011]

Degoey for $$$ only makes sense to me as long as we take at least pick 10 & 27 to the draft and 2 more kids to add to Windy - Owens - King - Sharman

Degoey will make life easier for Steele - Ross - Crouch and i agree we should be running Sincs through the midfield more

I think if we took Mitchell it would have to be to take his wage off their books and not give up much for him. They want their youth in and he's too good to leave out of the side.

 

[AirWinmar]

It sounds as though Bytel is gone if he can get to Essendon. Owens and Windy have to back up in year 2 which is often hard. I think Windhager probably more likely because with his tagging he can lock on with little expectation for his own game.

Currently sides are using their inside mids to move the ball forward to break lines. Guys that can grab the ball and rip it out are in demand. Stat padders like Macrae have lost some gloss. Sides also distribute their mids in positions like the high half forward role and HBF.

JDG makes some sense but he's not going to make us an instant contender on his own. He's a sometimes A grader sometimes B grader. Hill probably had the more consistent career but didn't help.

Ratts is going to have to do a few coaching courses in the off season IMO. If he can't change to something a bit more on trend as far as game plans go, I don't think it will matter who we bring in.

Looking at Richmond just pisses me off more about 2022, they are a very ordinary side playing another very ordinary side who is worse. We have to sit it out and I think it's motivation and coaching that hurt us the most this year.

Yeah I think some think JDG is going to be like Dusty when you're spot on with the Stringer comparison and at 26 is unlikely to change quickly.

Richmond have got some excellent kids coming through, it makes me sick that they've won premierships, gone down a bit and are already on the way back up again and have jumped us

 

[tomjoad]

She's not the players cultural person I believe. More the one who is teaching the non indigenous people at the club the meaning of the culture. I think we still have Allen Murray doing the stuff for the indigenous guys and we also had Lovett-Murray down at the club.

My cousin was part indigenous and he would have hated the stuff they do. He was once sent up in front of his university class to describe his "experiences" by a well meaning lecturer. He dropped out of the course. It was embarrassing and traumatic for him. He didn't know much about culture and he was made feel like he was separate from the rest.

Not all indigenous guys live in the desert and hunt kangaroos. Guys in the Tiwis live in the dominant culture and don't have the racist issues that others in places like Alice or Darwin might have. Guys that are from the stolen generations don't know anything about their culture and are quite removed from it.

A lot of these things to help make things better don't actually hit the mark. Hill and Ryder's experience might be completely different to Gresham and Lienerts. Making them go out and perform cultural stunts might actually just piss them off more than making them feel culturally valued.

Very well said...and very true. It's a funny one, because education is needed, but I'm not sure having to "explain culture" is the way to go. Take my experiences in Ireland and Europe in general...obviously you're going to get the usual "What would an Aussie know...you have no culture yada yada" crap...(they can't help being European afterall...poor bastards. Give me an enviable lifestyle over culture anyday...any f*cker can play the fiddle or flute and eat various types of pig meat, spuds, and wilted cabbage and then have a twirl about with a bit of practice) before getting the standard spiel about how we're (all Aussies) are murderous dogs. This is usually when I bring up my indigenous heritage (if I can be bothered) where the tone instantly changes and usually where I get a confused "you're not really black though" and then proceeding to speak
R-E-A-L-L-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y because all of a sudden I am unable to understand or articulate the English language anymore...this then descends to them getting their ever ready euro-trash hat on and where I get to hear them banging on about how they gave the aboriginals education, clothes, houses, a train service and post offices.
The fact that this means very little to me is lost on them. I am aware of my roots YES, and have a slim connection to it through family, but I am not full blood, and have no real experience of the hardships that many experience...though I can relate to aspects.
It's the superiority complex that comes from seeing the world and history through a naive black and white lens (see what I did there) that needs addressing. Rather than admit to not understanding a culture, people will explain it away to justify their intellectual position. By having to explain culture, you invariably make people with no association of it double down on what they prefer to think of the said culture by comparing their own against it.
It is also easier to riff from what has been written on a page and pretend that it's your opinion, than go out into the world and see if the riff actually works or means anything at all.

 

[lewdogs]

Ma

What’s the point if we aren’t pushing for top 4 and Mitchell just takes time away from the guys who will drive our next push. Let me see spend picks to make lethlean look good and cover ratts arse or develop a list that can content for years.

Just to be clear DeGoey will make us better but I doubt he’ll be free. Mitchell will make us better in the short term but is a sugar hit who will cost a pick and keep someone like windhager out of the middle. If things go pear shaped that could be our 1st and 2nd picks gone and don’t say it can’t happen or we’re not stupid enough, because it could and we are.

Maybe we do push up to the top four next year?

 

[Mowman]

I think if we took Mitchell it would have to be to take his wage off their books and not give up much for him. They want their youth in and he's too good to leave out of the side.

Mitch - Ross - crouch - Steele to much of the same ??
Put Degoey and Sincs in there

Windy and Owens going through there too

 

[AirWinmar]

Degoey for $$$ only makes sense to me as long as we take at least pick 10 & 27 to the draft and 2 more kids to add to Windy - Owens - King - Sharman

Degoey will make life easier for Steele - Ross - Crouch and i agree we should be running Sincs through the midfield more

Personally think it's madness that Sincs wasn't rotated thru the mids more. Your best decision maker, silkiest skills, arguably the best player below the knees in the afl, quick and strong. Hopefully next year

 

[lewdogs]

Yeah I think some think JDG is going to be like Dusty when you're spot on with the Stringer comparison and at 26 is unlikely to change quickly.

Richmond have got some excellent kids coming through, it makes me sick that they've won premierships, gone down a bit and are already on the way back up again and have jumped us

Richmond won the flag only two years ago I'd hardly say they've rebuilt and jumped us on the way back up.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I think if we took Mitchell it would have to be to take his wage off their books and not give up much for him. They want their youth in and he's too good to leave out of the side.

You have talked about how Mitchell coming in would be some sort of proof Ratts is desperately trying to survive.

Just how much say does Ratts have on who we recruit (thought I’d ask as you give off the impression you know how the club operates in great detail)?

 

[gringo2011]

What’s the point if we aren’t pushing for top 4 and Mitchell just takes time away from the guys who will drive our next push. Let me see spend picks to make lethlean look good and cover ratts arse or develop a list that can content for years.

Just to be clear DeGoey will make us better but I doubt he’ll be free. Mitchell will make us better in the short term but is a sugar hit who will cost a pick and keep someone like windhager out of the middle. If things go pear shaped that could be our 1st and 2nd picks gone and don’t say it can’t happen or we’re not stupid enough, because it could and we are.

We just don't have much youth to play. The guys that should be moving to playing every week are Bytel and Byrnes types. First and second year players aren't taking a prime midfield spot. Clark and Coff still haven't cemented a spot 5 years in. To top up how we have, we've sold a generation off.

If we are in for a rebuild/refresh we are doing it from a really bad place.

 

[bird_man]

I see it differently. We need to try to keep getting better. We have been attempting to build through the draft for years and it doesn't always work, we need a bit of both. We aren't far away from contention we still need to develop players but if you can get stars for free then it can make a big difference.

I doubt there would be another club that hasn't been contending that has traded in as many players as our club over the last 8 or so years?

It clearly hasn't worked for us yet so I'm not sure why it's going to start working now.

As for hitting the draft. Outside of last year we haven't been hitting to hard for a while now. It's ended with a huge gap in between our 18 gear olds and our 22 year olds which is a real concern IMO.

If we want to be trading in players that is the age demographic we should be looking at, not 30 year olds looking for a place to end their career.

 

[AirWinmar]

Richmond won the flag only two years ago I'd hardly say they've rebuilt and jumped us on the way back up.

They finished 14th last year and we belted them earlier this season so you'd think they were on the way down. But they ended up jumping us

 

[lewdogs]

Personally think it's madness that Sincs wasn't rotated thru the mids more. Your best decision maker, silkiest skills, arguably the best player below the knees in the afl, quick and strong. Hopefully next year

Sincs was an AA back this year. It might make sense to move him into the middle after a pre-season training there but to move him there in the middle of the season would have been nuts in my opinion.

 

[lewdogs]

I doubt there would be another club that hasn't been contending that has traded in as many players as our club over the last 8 or so years?

It clearly hasn't worked for us yet so I'm not sure why it's going to start working now.

As for hitting the draft. Outside of last year we haven't been hitting to hard for a while now. It's ended with a huge gap in between our 18 gear olds and our 22 year olds which is a real concern IMO.

If we want to be trading in players that is the age demographic we should be looking at, not 30 year olds looking for a place to end their career.

Fine but if you trade in young players they cost picks.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah I think some think JDG is going to be like Dusty when you're spot on with the Stringer comparison and at 26 is unlikely to change quickly.

Richmond have got some excellent kids coming through, it makes me sick that they've won premierships, gone down a bit and are already on the way back up again and have jumped us

They draft very very well.

 

[bird_man]

We just don't have much youth to play. The guys that should be moving to playing every week are Bytel and Byrnes types. First and second year players aren't taking a prime midfield spot. Clark and Coff still haven't cemented a spot 5 years in. To top up how we have, we've sold a generation off.

If we are in for a rebuild/refresh we are doing it from a really bad place.

Windhager has already played midfield, there's nothing to suggest he can't spend more time in there next year?

And plenty of quality mids were playimg in the engine room by year 2.

 

[bird_man]

Fine but if you trade in young players they cost picks.

So does Mitchell. Hawthorn arent just going to give away a player when their salary cap isn't an issue.

 

[AirWinmar]

Sincs was an AA back this year. It might make sense to move him into the middle after a pre-season training there but to move him there in the middle of the season would have been nuts in my opinion.

Sometimes you need the make some changes quicker than a year away in a fast paced game. Definitely killed it at half back, but with his skillset I think he could have helped the tram more rotating mid. Would still have had heaps of time off hbf

 

[Mowman]

Personally think it's madness that Sincs wasn't rotated thru the mids more. Your best decision maker, silkiest skills, arguably the best player below the knees in the afl, quick and strong. Hopefully next year

100 % this
one of the reason I have lost faith in the coaches they are so predictable

 

[lewdogs]

So does Mitchell. Hawthorn arent just going to give away a player when their salary cap isn't an issue.

Hawthorn tried to get rid of him last year too I'd say if we trade for him it would be for not much but who knows.

 

[AirWinmar]

100 % this
one of the reason I have lost faith in the coaches they are so predictable

Ratts was waiting for next preseason lol

 

[Mowman]

Sometimes you need the make some changes quicker than a year away in a fast paced game. Definitely killed it at half back, but with his skillset I think he could have helped the tram more rotating mid. Would still have had heaps of time off hbf

Brayshaw for the Dees was killing it at HBF and then killed it when moved into middle

 

[gringo2011]

Windhager has already played midfield, there's nothing to suggest he can't spend more time in there next year?

And plenty of quality mids were playimg in the engine room by year 2.

I think he can play a tagging role and maybe even some midfield minutes as a genuine mid but to suggest that he'll hold a spot on pure merit is a bit hard to believe. Not many kids go full Joel Selwood. I think if he plays like he did all year he probably keeps guys like Clark out of the side if need be. Plenty of players could be pushed out for them next year.

Coffield is likely to walk straight back in and push Webster types aside too. I think we look a bit different next year regardless.

 

[lewdogs]

100 % this
one of the reason I have lost faith in the coaches they are so predictable

You lost faith in Ratts because of Sincs? Strange logic.