List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part II

[gringo2011]

I would. WC will finish bottom. Can’t see North finishing any higher than 16/17.
Need to be realistic where we are at. Safe decisions will see us in no man’s land around 7-12 every year, we need to be ruthless. We’re not in contention for a flag in the next 2-3 years. Would give us say two top 12 picks next year plus this years pick 9.
Look to open the window with that suite of picks in 4-5 years with King, Coffield, Sharman, Connolly, Windy, NWM, Owens all hitting that sweet spot mid 20s age group plus Steele, Howard, Marshall, Gresham, Hayes, Battle, Higgins, Paton, McKenzie, Wilkie in the 28-30 range

I’m a big fan of Clark so I’d hate to see him leave. But taking emotion out of it tough decisions have to be made for the greater good.

Turning 2 best 22 players into one pick in the future is terrible management. You probably don't see return on that investment for 5 years so 2028 before that impact is felt. A whole group have moved on or retired at that point and you'd think Max King probably wants out playing in the bottom half of the ladder for another 5 years.

Sensible management is bringing in your high draft picks and developing the guys like Clark who are at an age to rise up. Move on the Webster types who are getting on and play youth in their spots for development. Look for players with minimum 5 to 7 years left and don't touch any one old unless they are free and have leadership potential.

 

[stavro#4]

Once again, I'm not doubting that and I'm not doubting what you said.

I just find it odd that he has agreed, but hasn't signed and even mcrae is asking him to get the contract done.

If it was full bore adamant, it would have been done then and there..not weeks later

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I won't shoot anyone down about trade news or rumours. I personally love them, bit of excitement. So don't think I'm doubting you or the word you get, I just find the whole thing odd and fascinating.

I like getting all the "facts" from silly season hahaha

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1. If a deal is agreed in principle. It’s still not signed. Could be the confusion here.

2. I wouldn’t think McCrae would be across every update. They were balls deep in September action. I’d want my coach focusing here.

3. I went early in a PM. Then made it public on here. Looks like it’s spot on info.

Which is a shame as I am genuinely wanting to be wrong. I want JDG desperately at St Kilda.

Point is, if the info was out there for someone like me to hear about and share. It’s obviously very close.

 

[Yawkey way]

Witts
Cameron
Darcy
Nankervis
Gawn
English

MARSHALL

Outside of Cameron, the rest would be considered elite Rucks of the Comp this year.

Nankervis is captain and 3 x premiership ruck.

The point, is that we used Marshall as a square peg in a round hole because of what Ryder brought to the side.

The only thing we learnt about Marshall in this experience is that he is a genuine bonafide ruck. He has little forward craft.

So when questioning his output and linking it to your statement thatMarshall would bring a bigger bounty.

Well, no s**t - he is a bloody good ruck(follower).

The moment he got to be sole ruck. His output spiked again.

West coast - 15 disposals 49 hitouts
Hawthorn - 30 disposals 35 hitouts
Geelong - 21 disposals 37 hit outs
Brisbane - 20 disposals 42 hitouts

Average in that month of football

21.5 disposals and 40.75 hitouts

* Campbell came in for Sydney *

That’s why he shouldn’t be traded or be considered as trade bait.

You’re just making my point for me. Quality players including Clark shouldn’t be be traded because of injury or being played out of position. It’s crazy to talk about trading either imo but you only seem to have a problem with marshall, why ?.

 

[gringo2011]

The nuns on here would cry either way.

Don’t land him… crying because it’s another failure.

Land him and he *s up… crying because he *ed up.

Calm down drama queen.

If he ****ed up it would be a disaster because it would be a another embarrassing trade and a really bad look for a club that's struggling for credibility. Even people who want him would be freaked out especially if he did something really bad and we had to sack him and pay out 4 years of his wages.

I was always keen to take the risk on him. I think he makes much more sense than Hill ever did. He wins his own ball and scores goals but we all know he comes as a walking **** up factory.

My concern is more around us having a plan. It looks like we are a bit confused about our path. Are we rebuilding? Are we resetting? Are we close to a flag or do we just want to make the 8 for a bit of a relief and hope that we can patch up what comes up underneath and move forward from a stepping stone position?

 

[stavro#4]

You’re just making my point for me. Quality players including Clark shouldn’t be be traded because of injury or being played out of position. It’s crazy to talk about trading either imo but you only seem to have a problem with marshall, why ?.

Ehh….

Marshall is a quality player. He does it time and time again as a genuine number 1 ruck.

Clark is not there. I have never doubted his potential. But I am not delusional in thinking he IS a quality player. But his issue is consistency. He isn’t there yet.

That’s the point mate.

He might. He might not.

Maybe it’s the injuries. Maybe it’s not.

You are arguing a hypothetical. Where as I showed you what quality looks like.

 

[Mangus]

You would think if we were still a chance with JDG we would be bumping our offer a little more - Salary Cap is going to go up when the next broadcast agreement starts in 2025, an $800K salary in 2023 will be equivalent to $1M in 2025 if we really want him we should be offering more than the Pies. There is a premium to extract a player from their club. So I am surprised our offer is roughly comparable to the Pies. Look at what Richmond are offering Tarranto and Hopper 7 year deals that is what they needed to do to get them.

Seems to be an attitude that getting DeGoey on $800K for 4 is the responsible thing to do but $1M for 4 is crazy. I really don't think the risk is how much we pay him, the $200K extra won't make him more or less of a risk but it could well make him change his mind about coming.

So it comes down to whether we actually want him or not he is an $800K player but if you want him to move he is an $1M player. If we still want to challenge for finals then we bite the bullet and pay the price, as it is I think our reported offer shows we are not all in on him and I expect he will stay a Pie.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Calm down drama queen.

 

[gringo2011]

Witts
Cameron
Darcy
Nankervis
Gawn
English

MARSHALL

Outside of Cameron, the rest would be considered elite Rucks of the Comp this year.

Nankervis is captain and 3 x premiership ruck.

The point, is that we used Marshall as a square peg in a round hole because of what Ryder brought to the side.

The only thing we learnt about Marshall in this experience is that he is a genuine bonafide ruck. He has little forward craft.

So when questioning his output and linking it to your statement thatMarshall would bring a bigger bounty.

Well, no s**t - he is a bloody good ruck(follower).

The moment he got to be sole ruck. His output spiked again.

West coast - 15 disposals 49 hitouts
Hawthorn - 30 disposals 35 hitouts
Geelong - 21 disposals 37 hit outs
Brisbane - 20 disposals 42 hitouts

Average in that month of football

21.5 disposals and 40.75 hitouts

* Campbell came in for Sydney *

That’s why he shouldn’t be traded or be considered as trade bait.

Marshall is one of those rucks that doesn't have great tap craft but has more ability to impact like an extra mid. Like Wood he's a great mark if he motors out into space but stand him in the goal square and he gets no room to move and is easily minded. His only real value forward is as a foil for the others to stretch out the defence but the way we play everything through King makes that role irrelevant any way.

I think Yawkey was just turning the torch back on the idea of selling off Hunter Clark. Marshall has a had a few years of under performance and has got a huge contract. Ryder was great to have but he's really delayed a lot of development of others and now that he's gone leaves a hole.

 

[stavro#4]

Calm down drama queen.

If he *ed up it would be a disaster because it would be a another embarrassing trade and a really bad look for a club that's struggling for credibility. Even people who want him would be freaked out especially if he did something really bad and we had to sack him and pay out 4 years of his wages.

I was always keen to take the risk on him. I think he makes much more sense than Hill ever did. He wins his own ball and scores goals but we all know he comes as a walking * up factory.

My concern is more around us having a plan. It looks like we are a bit confused about our path. Are we rebuilding? Are we resetting? Are we close to a flag or do we just want to make the 8 for a bit of a relief and hope that we can patch up what comes up underneath and move forward from a stepping stone position?

Mate you are the biggest chihuahua on this board.

You cry about everything and somehow always bring it back to something irrelevant years ago.

If he went out and got caught doing nose beers, this would be you.

Completely ignoring the fact that most players do it. Infact I remember going out in my early 20s and seeing Baker Dawson and eddy doing lines at the club we were at. But you would have still happily licked their balls at the time because the saints were successful.

Instead of crying about pieces of information. Let the trade period play out and then you might have an idea what the future will look like.

Because right now you are doing a great job of jumping at shadows and working yourself up without getting the entire picture.

 

[Yawkey way]

Ehh….

Marshall is a quality player. He does it time and time again as a genuine number 1 ruck.

Clark is not there. I have never doubted his potential. But I am not delusional in thinking he IS a quality player. But his issue is consistency. He isn’t there yet.

That’s the point mate.

He might. He might not.

Maybe it’s the injuries. Maybe it’s not.

You are arguing a hypothetical. Where as I showed you what quality looks like.

Can’t be bothered arguing around in circles but Clark was top 10 b&f and looked primed so it’s not all on potential. I wouldn’t have either on the table nor would I sell low on Clark when we’ve seen his talent and know injury has slowed him.

 

[stavro#4]

Marshall is one of those rucks that doesn't have great tap craft but has more ability to impact like an extra mid. Like Wood he's a great mark if he motors out into space but stand him in the goal square and he gets no room to move and is easily minded. His only real value forward is as a foil for the others to stretch out the defence but the way we play everything through King makes that role irrelevant any way.

I think Yawkey was just turning the torch back on the idea of selling off Hunter Clark. Marshall has a had a few years of under performance and has got a huge contract. Ryder was great to have but he's really delayed a lot of development of others and now that he's gone leaves a hole.

I know what his point was.

I showed you mine.

One is a proven gun as a genuine ruck. That’s why he got a huge contract and why essendon went big after him.

The other is a kid with high potential that hasn’t shown genuine consistency and has NOT become a star of the game.

He might. He might not.

That’s the issue. It’s an unknown. So then you are making decisions as a football club based on what you see inthe 4 walls of Moorabbin and the feedback the leadership group provide.

 

[FootyMaster11]

The moment he got to be sole ruck. His output spiked again.

West coast - 15 disposals 49 hitouts
Hawthorn - 30 disposals 35 hitouts
Geelong - 21 disposals 37 hit outs
Brisbane - 20 disposals 42 hitouts

Average in that month of football

21.5 disposals and 40.75 hitouts

gee those are some solid numbers, I believe he is best suited to the lone ruck role with only a few short stints in the fwd resting. However, ratts has shown a tendency to prefer the 2 ruck setup. Without Ryder this year, do you think we have Marshall as the lone ruck, or do you think they stick with 2 rucks, even though we don't have a good second ruck (Campbell is only depth IMO).

My preference would be to have Marshall as 80% ruck and Jack Hayes do the other 20%. Showed against Collingwood in Rd 1 that is up to the task, as even though is undersized, has the heart and puts in the effort to compete.

 

[stavro#4]

gee those are some solid numbers, I believe he is best suited to the lone ruck role with only a few short stints in the fwd resting. However, ratts has shown a tendency to prefer the 2 ruck setup. Without Ryder this year, do you think we have Marshall as the lone ruck, or do you think they stick with 2 rucks, even though we don't have a good second ruck (Campbell is only depth IMO).

My preference would be to have Marshall as 80% ruck and Jack Hayes do the other 20%. Showed against Collingwood in Rd 1 that is up to the task, as even though is undersized, has the heart and puts in the effort to compete.

I would hope we bring in a genuine forward who can pinch hit as opposed to a gun ruck ala Ryder.

No clue what they do.

Weiderman was a good shout.

Wouldn’t put all my eggs in the Hayes bucket just because of the knee. But yes same thinking.

 

[BrutThough]

I would hope we bring in a genuine forward who can pinch hit as opposed to a gun ruck ala Ryder.

No clue what they do.

Weiderman was a good shout.

Wouldn’t put all my eggs in the Hayes bucket just because of the knee. But yes same thinking.

One of Weiderman, Schache, McLean, Amarty or Ratugolea are probably the types we need to be looking at.

NO idea if any are gettable or if any will be the answer to our problem.

 

[Veer Right]

Turning 2 best 22 players into one pick in the future is terrible management. You probably don't see return on that investment for 5 years so 2028 before that impact is felt. A whole group have moved on or retired at that point and you'd think Max King probably wants out playing in the bottom half of the ladder for another 5 years.

Sensible management is bringing in your high draft picks and developing the guys like Clark who are at an age to rise up. Move on the Webster types who are getting on and play youth in their spots for development. Look for players with minimum 5 to 7 years left and don't touch any one old unless they are free and have leadership potential.

Hill is barely best 22 and only to some. Clark while having more fans is in the same boat. So no.

 

[BrutThough]

Hill is barely best 22 and only to some. Clark while having more fans is in the same boat. So no.

Hill just finished 7th in the best and fairest.

He isn't on the edge of the best 22.

 

[gubby88]

1. If a deal is agreed in principle. It’s still not signed. Could be the confusion here.

2. I wouldn’t think McCrae would be across every update. They were balls deep in September action. I’d want my coach focusing here.

3. I went early in a PM. Then made it public on here. Looks like it’s spot on info.

Which is a shame as I am genuinely wanting to be wrong. I want JDG desperately at St Kilda.

Point is, if the info was out there for someone like me to hear about and share. It’s obviously very close.

Front of HS "Jordan De Stay" so probably something in that as well hahaha

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[hayes]

Ehh….

Marshall is a quality player. He does it time and time again as a genuine number 1 ruck.

Clark is not there. I have never doubted his potential. But I am not delusional in thinking he IS a quality player. But his issue is consistency. He isn’t there yet.

That’s the point mate.

He might. He might not.

Maybe it’s the injuries. Maybe it’s not.

You are arguing a hypothetical. Where as I showed you what quality looks like.

Clark’s biggest issue is he’s been injured for almost two years. When we played finals he was one of our best in both of those finals as a 21 year old. Since then it’s been multiple collision injuries which makes it hard to be consistent, to me it’s complete and utter madness to look to trade him and it just proves that the recruiters don’t have a clue what they’re doing.

 

[gringo2011]

Mate you are the biggest chihuahua on this board.

You cry about everything and somehow always bring it back to something irrelevant years ago.

If he went out and got caught doing nose beers, this would be you.

Completely ignoring the fact that most players do it. Infact I remember going out in my early 20s and seeing Baker Dawson and eddy doing lines at the club we were at. But you would have still happily licked their balls at the time because the saints were successful.

Instead of crying about pieces of information. Let the trade period play out and then you might have an idea what the future will look like.

Because right now you are doing a great job of jumping at shadows and working yourself up without getting the entire picture.

That is true, win games of footy and I'm happy though. I don't give any ****s about what they do as long as we're winning and they don't miss games for it. The club has made stupid decisions and still do. Our club is pretty much Jordan De Goey but without the good at footy component.

 

[bird_man]

1. If a deal is agreed in principle. It’s still not signed. Could be the confusion here.

2. I wouldn’t think McCrae would be across every update. They were balls deep in September action. I’d want my coach focusing here.

3. I went early in a PM. Then made it public on here. Looks like it’s spot on info.

Which is a shame as I am genuinely wanting to be wrong. I want JDG desperately at St Kilda.

Point is, if the info was out there for someone like me to hear about and share. It’s obviously very close.

So people on bigfooty knew via PM before the coach did?

 

[Yawkey way]

I know what his point was.

I showed you mine.

One is a proven gun as a genuine ruck. That’s why he got a huge contract and why essendon went big after him.

The other is a kid with high potential that hasn’t shown genuine consistency and has NOT become a star of the game.

He might. He might not.

That’s the issue. It’s an unknown. So then you are making decisions as a football club based on what you see inthe 4 walls of Moorabbin and the feedback the leadership group provide.

Who hasn’t finished top 10 in the b&f for the last 2 years despite playing 21 games this year.

 

[g_TRAIN]

This thread has turned into a shit show.

And its about the only active thread on the forum now

 

[BrutThough]

Clark’s biggest issue is he’s been injured for almost two years. When we played finals he was one of our best in both of those finals as a 21 year old. Since then it’s been multiple collision injuries which makes it hard to be consistent, to me it’s complete and utter madness to look to trade him and it just proves that the recruiters don’t have a clue what they’re doing.

Or they have more information about where Clark is currently at and ranks alongside our other midfield prospects than we do.

 

[gringo2011]

So people on bigfooty knew via PM before the coach did?

There have been strong rumours for a couple of weeks that he's agreed to terms and they were waiting until finals were out of the way. Often where there's smoke there's fire. Maybe CM is doing some theatrics to keep the positive momentum going after a loss or there is some other reason that the Pies want to drag it out a bit longer. Perhaps they keeping it under wraps to stop the trade for Grundy not look too desperate. Who knows.

 

[stavro#4]

So people on bigfooty knew via PM before the coach did?

I would argue McCrae would know there is an offer on the table and they are negotiating. He wouldn’t need every update in the middle of September, would he?

Weird take from you.