NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Festerz]

He went to Port to get away from the noise here and got slammed while he was there too.

Honestly not really interested. I only came into this thread cos a different one I was posting in got merged with it.

If you think the treatment of LT was okay tho ... welll dunno what to say to that really.

Hang on. You have stated that Lindsay Thomas went to Port Adelaide and was racially abused within the Club? Not forgetting he actually joined North from the Port Adelaide Magpies as a junior and has historical ties to the club.

That is a serious allegation against a club who has one of the highest reputations for indigenous engagement in the AFL. To the point where its long term Indigenous Programs Manager (Pauly Vandenbergh) was poached by the AFL this year to run its programs.

And LT is still a well respected member of the PAFC community - he was at Alberton Oval on Saturday for the AFLW game against North.

Or are you talking more generally around the constant media attacks against LT - including AFL commentator and former Cat Cameron Ling calling his 2018 bump on Selwood a cowardly 'dog act'?

You really have a duty to provide clarity around your comment.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I've come back on to the thread after Jackson defamed a very good friend of mine in Sonja. Sonja paid a beautiful tribute to my recently deceased mother at the North AFLW B n F. I've seen the brilliant work Sonja has done at The Huddle, with the community hubs.

And I'm pissed off that some snivelling white male turd like Jackson who has made a career out of monetising the misery of others felt he could king hit my good friend like he did on Friday.

Rusty misjudged Sonja, like so many do (including on this thread) and paid a significant price in terms of credibility.

A wise person would look at Jackson's behaviour of late and say "Hmmmm, is this bloke actually the right person to be handling a story of this complexity and nuance?"

I'm also really pissed off at how cavalier he's been with this story, with his arrogant and ugly white saviour complex.

When I first read his story I was shocked, I still am, by the allegations, but when I got to the end I went "And? Where's the hard work? Where's the witnesses, where's the corroboration? Why has the ABC published the first draft of what could be an outstanding investigation?"

Racism towards indigenous players is something that's defined my experience of footy.

One of my earliest memories is being horrified at why people were shouting awful things at my favourite players, Phil and Jim Krakouer.

I've heard so much racist abuse at the footy over the years, and me and my family stood up against the racists, sometimes at significant personal risk - Victoria Park in the early 90s, Kardinia Park in the 80s, Friday night games against Essendon before Sheeds saw the light.

I'm pissed off because this is such an important story about indigenous footballers and Jackson has just stuffed it from top to bottom. His towering ego (which we saw on ugly display on Friday) and his incompetence combined.

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

Rusty wants Alistair Clarkson's scalp, make his name, and he's prepared to risk the health and wellbeing of deeply vulnerable people to do it.

I've seen that happen plenty of times in journalism, I did it myself once and I still feel sick when I think about it.

And on Clarkson, do you honestly think I give THAT much of a s**t if Clarkson coaches us or not?

That I'd put Clarkson ahead of the brilliant culture of Cable (first ever indigenous coach), the Krakouers, the sublime Daniel Wells, Lindsay Thomas who was treated with disgusting racism by the wider AFL, Tarryn Thomas, Mia King etc that we have at North?

If Clarkson did even half of what's being alleged here, he's not welcome at Arden Street.

You dickheads on here have no idea how we North fans think.

Us sacking Clarkson tomorrow wouldn't even be in the top five shitty off field things to happen to us ffs.

If we sack him, we'll get a new coach and we'll play Round 1 next year just fine.

So its not about the article itself , protecting Clarkson but your hatred of Jackson, now we are getting somewhere.
The article is fine then?

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

How do you surmise this from the article ? All journalists are working to further thier career. The question is was the article fair journalism and at this point I have to say it is.
You have no evidence that this was rushed to print , this is again your assumption.
I see no vindictivness in the Jackson article , he was just reporting what the victims shared with him. It was not an opinion piece. Just a tragic story with allegations that will effect peoples lives forever.

I came to this thread with an sadness and a open mind and was drawn to post as I was intrigued with your attacks of Jackson and his article Which I think it totally unfair.


I agree with you, I went to the footy in the 70-80s and the racist comments from the outer at certain crowds defined my way of thinking for my whole life. I was drawn to speak out when as an adult I encountered racism . I ended up working with refugees as a social worker .
I found the Jackson article hard to read and felt that the events probably did happen in some form but Clarkson and Fagan were coming form a misguided paternalistic approach. This does not excuse them and if what has been alleged is true they have tarnished their careers for life .

Just hope you see where I am coming from, dont shoot the messenger (Jackson) . It is a dark tale and if not for his story it may not have ever been aired publicly . I do wonder if the victims have consciously used him for leverage as they distrust HFC and AFL and that is why I think he may have known prior to the HFC report being tabled.
If i was looking to put a red hot poker up HFC over the issues and their inaction Jackson probably would have been front and centre in my mind after his other articles highlighting the abuse of sportsmen and especially the Robert Muir story.

Hope you can focus on what he has achieved with this article and not a silly tweet which he was big enough to recant and apologise for.

 

[ferball]

Hang on. You have stated that Lindsay Thomas went to Port Adelaide and was racially abused within the Club? Not forgetting he actually joined North from the Port Adelaide Magpies as a junior and has historical ties to the club.

That is a serious allegation against a club who has one of the highest reputations for indigenous engagement in the AFL. To the point where its long term Indigenous Programs Manager (Pauly Vandenbergh) was poached by the AFL this year to run its programs.

And LT is still a well respected member of the PAFC community - he was at Alberton Oval on Saturday for the AFLW game against North.

Or are you talking more generally around the constant media attacks against LT - including AFL commentator and former Cat Cameron Ling calling his 2018 bump on Selwood a cowardly 'dog act'?

You really have a duty to provide clarity around your comment.

I would have thought it was obvious I was talking about the league wide villification campaign against him including what Ling said then and on plenty of other occasions. He was abused by the public, other clubs and media shitheads while at Port and North. I don't think much of your footy club right now but you always treated LT well.

 

[Xtreme]

Clarkson couldn't delist Jed Anderson fast enough. Interesting.

Making something out of nothing, I thought he was earmarked for delisting before Clarko was signed ?

 

[Festerz]

I would have thought it was obvious I was talking about the league wide villification campaign against him including what Ling said then and on plenty of other occasions. He was abused by the public, other clubs and media shitheads while at Port and North. I don't think much of your footy club right now but you always treated LT well.

Ahh thanx mate. Helps to make it quite clear who is being targeted when it comes to this cr@p.

 

[JackOutback]

I've come back on to the thread after Jackson defamed a very good friend of mine in Sonja. Sonja paid a beautiful tribute to my recently deceased mother at the North AFLW B n F. I've seen the brilliant work Sonja has done at The Huddle, with the community hubs.

And I'm pissed off that some snivelling white male turd like Jackson who has made a career out of monetising the misery of others felt he could king hit my good friend like he did on Friday.

Rusty misjudged Sonja, like so many do (including on this thread) and paid a significant price in terms of credibility.

A wise person would look at Jackson's behaviour of late and say "Hmmmm, is this bloke actually the right person to be handling a story of this complexity and nuance?"

I'm also really pissed off at how cavalier he's been with this story, with his arrogant and ugly white saviour complex.

When I first read his story I was shocked, I still am, by the allegations, but when I got to the end I went "And? Where's the hard work? Where's the witnesses, where's the corroboration? Why has the ABC published the first draft of what could be an outstanding investigation?"

Racism towards indigenous players is something that's defined my experience of footy.

One of my earliest memories is being horrified at why people were shouting awful things at my favourite players, Phil and Jim Krakouer.

I've heard so much racist abuse at the footy over the years, and me and my family stood up against the racists, sometimes at significant personal risk - Victoria Park in the early 90s, Kardinia Park in the 80s, Friday night games against Essendon before Sheeds saw the light.

I'm pissed off because this is such an important story about indigenous footballers and Jackson has just stuffed it from top to bottom. His towering ego (which we saw on ugly display on Friday) and his incompetence combined.

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

Rusty wants Alistair Clarkson's scalp, make his name, and he's prepared to risk the health and wellbeing of deeply vulnerable people to do it.

I've seen that happen plenty of times in journalism, I did it myself once and I still feel sick when I think about it.

And on Clarkson, do you honestly think I give THAT much of a s**t if Clarkson coaches us or not?

That I'd put Clarkson ahead of the brilliant culture of Cable (first ever indigenous coach), the Krakouers, the sublime Daniel Wells, Lindsay Thomas who was treated with disgusting racism by the wider AFL, Tarryn Thomas, Mia King etc that we have at North?

If Clarkson did even half of what's being alleged here, he's not welcome at Arden Street.

You dickheads on here have no idea how we North fans think.

Us sacking Clarkson tomorrow wouldn't even be in the top five shitty off field things to happen to us ffs.

If we sack him, we'll get a new coach and we'll play Round 1 next year just fine.

 

[Psicosis]

What was the defamation?

Weeks and 355 pages later, you’re still here asking the same pathetic loaded questions.

Imagine investing that much time in trolling anonymous strangers on the internet.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I've come back on to the thread after Jackson defamed a very good friend of mine in Sonja. Sonja paid a beautiful tribute to my recently deceased mother at the North AFLW B n F. I've seen the brilliant work Sonja has done at The Huddle, with the community hubs.

And I'm pissed off that some snivelling white male turd like Jackson who has made a career out of monetising the misery of others felt he could king hit my good friend like he did on Friday.

Rusty misjudged Sonja, like so many do (including on this thread) and paid a significant price in terms of credibility.

A wise person would look at Jackson's behaviour of late and say "Hmmmm, is this bloke actually the right person to be handling a story of this complexity and nuance?"

I'm also really pissed off at how cavalier he's been with this story, with his arrogant and ugly complex.

When I first read his story I was shocked, I still am, by the allegations, but when I got to the end I went "And? Where's the hard work? Where's the witnesses, where's the corroboration? Why has the ABC published the first draft of what could be an outstanding investigation?"

Racism towards indigenous players is something that's defined my experience of footy.

One of my earliest memories is being horrified at why people were shouting awful things at my favourite players, Phil and Jim Krakouer.

I've heard so much racist abuse at the footy over the years, and me and my family stood up against the racists, sometimes at significant personal risk - Victoria Park in the early 90s, Kardinia Park in the 80s, Friday night games against Essendon before Sheeds saw the light.

I'm pissed off because this is such an important story about indigenous footballers and Jackson has just stuffed it from top to bottom. His towering ego (which we saw on ugly display on Friday) and his incompetence combined.

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

Rusty wants Alistair Clarkson's scalp, make his name, and he's prepared to risk the health and wellbeing of deeply vulnerable people to do it.

I've seen that happen plenty of times in journalism, I did it myself once and I still feel sick when I think about it.

And on Clarkson, do you honestly think I give THAT much of a s**t if Clarkson coaches us or not?

That I'd put Clarkson ahead of the brilliant culture of Cable (first ever indigenous coach), the Krakouers, the sublime Daniel Wells, Lindsay Thomas who was treated with disgusting racism by the wider AFL, Tarryn Thomas, Mia King etc that we have at North?

If Clarkson did even half of what's being alleged here, he's not welcome at Arden Street.

You dickheads on here have no idea how we North fans think.

Us sacking Clarkson tomorrow wouldn't even be in the top five shitty off field things to happen to us ffs.

If we sack him, we'll get a new coach and we'll play Round 1 next year just fine.

Firstly, sorry for the loss of your mother and I am sure that Sonja has done some incredible work. I just wanted to raise one point that many Aboriginal people do not share your view of the article being that of a 'white saviour' and many don't see that he has stuffed up the article for Aboriginal people. Many Aboriginals see this as potentially a watershed moment.

 

[Curly5]

Firstly, sorry for the loss of your mother and I am sure that Sonja has done some incredible work. I just wanted to raise one point that many Aboriginal people do not share your view of the article being that of a 'white saviour' and many don't see that he has stuffed up the article for Aboriginal people. Many Aboriginals see this as potentially a watershed moment.

Interesting. So what outcome do they want?

 

[Ricketz]

I've come back on to the thread after Jackson defamed a very good friend of mine in Sonja. Sonja paid a beautiful tribute to my recently deceased mother at the North AFLW B n F. I've seen the brilliant work Sonja has done at The Huddle, with the community hubs.

And I'm pissed off that some snivelling white male turd like Jackson who has made a career out of monetising the misery of others felt he could king hit my good friend like he did on Friday.

Rusty misjudged Sonja, like so many do (including on this thread) and paid a significant price in terms of credibility.

A wise person would look at Jackson's behaviour of late and say "Hmmmm, is this bloke actually the right person to be handling a story of this complexity and nuance?"

I'm also really pissed off at how cavalier he's been with this story, with his arrogant and ugly white saviour complex.

When I first read his story I was shocked, I still am, by the allegations, but when I got to the end I went "And? Where's the hard work? Where's the witnesses, where's the corroboration? Why has the ABC published the first draft of what could be an outstanding investigation?"

Racism towards indigenous players is something that's defined my experience of footy.

One of my earliest memories is being horrified at why people were shouting awful things at my favourite players, Phil and Jim Krakouer.

I've heard so much racist abuse at the footy over the years, and me and my family stood up against the racists, sometimes at significant personal risk - Victoria Park in the early 90s, Kardinia Park in the 80s, Friday night games against Essendon before Sheeds saw the light.

I'm pissed off because this is such an important story about indigenous footballers and Jackson has just stuffed it from top to bottom. His towering ego (which we saw on ugly display on Friday) and his incompetence combined.

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

Rusty wants Alistair Clarkson's scalp, make his name, and he's prepared to risk the health and wellbeing of deeply vulnerable people to do it.

I've seen that happen plenty of times in journalism, I did it myself once and I still feel sick when I think about it.

And on Clarkson, do you honestly think I give THAT much of a s**t if Clarkson coaches us or not?

That I'd put Clarkson ahead of the brilliant culture of Cable (first ever indigenous coach), the Krakouers, the sublime Daniel Wells, Lindsay Thomas who was treated with disgusting racism by the wider AFL, Tarryn Thomas, Mia King etc that we have at North?

If Clarkson did even half of what's being alleged here, he's not welcome at Arden Street.

You dickheads on here have no idea how we North fans think.

Us sacking Clarkson tomorrow wouldn't even be in the top five shitty off field things to happen to us ffs.

If we sack him, we'll get a new coach and we'll play Round 1 next year just fine.

Wow, talk about defaming. You went nuclear buddy.

You might want to read Statement on the ABC’s reporting of Hawthorn FC racism allegations

 

[South of the Yarra]

Interesting. So what outcome do they want?

I cannot speak personally from the alleged victim's perspective, but I can give the perspective of 'many' other Aboriginals. It is not about what people want in regard to what sanctions and punishment; it is what people want as far as ensuring these alleged incidents stop happening and that ALL clubs ensure that it never happens again. To many people have suffered time and again.

 

[Ricketz]

How do you know it was the the report that prompted the start of the article ??
The events were historic and the victims could have spoken to many people in that time .
Anyone could have tipped off Jackson that started his investigation.

Your yet to show how it was rushed?
Your yet to show anything that was wrong with the article?

I know it wasn't. I just posted a link that shows it didn't reference the report other than to acknowledge its existence.

"While Russell Jackson’s story reports on the existence of the external review commissioned by Hawthorn, and some allegations made within it, his story was not based on that review and does not quote its contents."

 

[Ricketz]

Interesting. So what outcome do they want?

Ask them?

 

[Maddo11]

Interesting. So what outcome do they want?

As a 30 something white man i don't want to speak out of place but if I had to take a stab at it maybe it would be an AFL system where indigenous players feel safe reporting abhorrent behaviour and knowing that appropriate action will be taken against any racist behaviour.

For examples of this not happening, see:
McGuire keeping his job for a decade after multiple racist gaffes.
Players partner emailing Newbold about Clarko and co, but Newbold buries it for a decade rather than get his hands dirty looking into it. (Then blames it on "the media girl" )
Goodes requesting fair treatment and being met with silence from AFL HQ and vitriol from fans
Cyril straight up quitting knowing that nothing would be done about Kennetts racist BS
Eddie Betts voicing his concern about the frankly bizarre Adelaide camp and being stood down from a leadership position as a result.
And it's possible that the AFL were going to bury the HFC report without any meaningful action, the red flag for me is that they didn't request Newbold stand down from his AFL commission position until after the Jackson story broke.

For examples of the correct outcome:
Hmm

I dunno. Anyone wanna help me out here?

 

[South of the Yarra]

As a 30 something white man i don't want to speak out of place but if I had to take a stab at it maybe it would be an AFL system where indigenous players feel safe reporting abhorrent behaviour and knowing that appropriate action will be taken against any racist behaviour.

For examples of this not happening, see:
McGuire keeping his job for a decade after multiple racist gaffes.
Players partner emailing Newbold about Clarko and co, but Newbold buries it for a decade rather than get his hands dirty looking into it. (Then blames it on "the media girl" )
Goodes requesting fair treatment and being met with silence from AFL HQ and vitriol from fans
Eddie Betts voicing his concern about the frankly bizarre Adelaide camp and being stood down from a leadership position as a result.
And it's possible that the AFL were going to bury the HFC report without any meaningful action, the red flag for me is that they didn't request Newbold stand down from his AFL commission position until after the Jackson story broke.

For examples of the correct outcome:
Hmm

I dunno. Anyone wanna help me out here?

You are not out of place, and you are pretty spot on. Aboriginal people want these gone from the game. The sad part is these are the ones that we know about. So many horrors have been buried and players absolutely destroyed because of what they experienced,

 

[Maddo11]

The sad part is these are the ones that we know about. So many horrors have been buried and players absolutely destroyed because of what they experienced,

Definitely

 

[Del191229]

So if you believe the people making the allegations why not Jacksons reporting of them???? Thats all he has done.

That's the problem. That's all he's done.

 

[Slartibartfast]

That's the problem. That's all he's done.

Thats not a problem , thats his job.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Definitely

Chris Lewis is an example. Have had many chats with him. The abuse he copped was nothing short of shameful.

 

[Del191229]

What was the defamation?

 

[Del191229]

Hang on. You have stated that Lindsay Thomas went to Port Adelaide and was racially abused within the Club? Not forgetting he actually joined North from the Port Adelaide Magpies as a junior and has historical ties to the club.

That is a serious allegation against a club who has one of the highest reputations for indigenous engagement in the AFL. To the point where its long term Indigenous Programs Manager (Pauly Vandenbergh) was poached by the AFL this year to run its programs.

And LT is still a well respected member of the PAFC community - he was at Alberton Oval on Saturday for the AFLW game against North.

Or are you talking more generally around the constant media attacks against LT - including AFL commentator and former Cat Cameron Ling calling his 2018 bump on Selwood a cowardly 'dog act'?

You really have a duty to provide clarity around your comment.

He's saying LT still copped racist bullshit, from the media and oppo fans while playing for Port.

Not off Port.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Thats not a problem , thats his job.

So from your perspective, how is good journalism any different from stenography?

 

[Slartibartfast]

So from your perspective, how is good journalism any different from stenography?

The ability to get the complete story out of someone in a manner that is empathetic yet still getting the nitty gritty Of the story via questioning . You need to have some insight as to where the teller is going and help them get there.

 

[Makeshift Park]

The ability to get the complete story out of someone in a manner that is empathetic yet still getting the nitty gritty Of the story via questioning . You need to have some insight as to where the teller is going and help them get there.

Ok. That’s not a bad answer.
The conflict in this thread seems to boil down to whether it’s possible to tell “a complete story” - as you put it - with balance, accuracy, and impartiality, when the subject is abuse and the only source material appears to be victims testimony.

I’d argue it’s very difficult to do that, if not impossible.

 

[sr36]

I've come back on to the thread after Jackson defamed a very good friend of mine in Sonja. Sonja paid a beautiful tribute to my recently deceased mother at the North AFLW B n F. I've seen the brilliant work Sonja has done at The Huddle, with the community hubs.

And I'm pissed off that some snivelling white male turd like Jackson who has made a career out of monetising the misery of others felt he could king hit my good friend like he did on Friday.

Rusty misjudged Sonja, like so many do (including on this thread) and paid a significant price in terms of credibility.

A wise person would look at Jackson's behaviour of late and say "Hmmmm, is this bloke actually the right person to be handling a story of this complexity and nuance?"

I'm also really pissed off at how cavalier he's been with this story, with his arrogant and ugly white saviour complex.

When I first read his story I was shocked, I still am, by the allegations, but when I got to the end I went "And? Where's the hard work? Where's the witnesses, where's the corroboration? Why has the ABC published the first draft of what could be an outstanding investigation?"

Racism towards indigenous players is something that's defined my experience of footy.

One of my earliest memories is being horrified at why people were shouting awful things at my favourite players, Phil and Jim Krakouer.

I've heard so much racist abuse at the footy over the years, and me and my family stood up against the racists, sometimes at significant personal risk - Victoria Park in the early 90s, Kardinia Park in the 80s, Friday night games against Essendon before Sheeds saw the light.

I'm pissed off because this is such an important story about indigenous footballers and Jackson has just stuffed it from top to bottom. His towering ego (which we saw on ugly display on Friday) and his incompetence combined.

Jackson wanted to use these people's stories of suffering to further his own career. It isn't about them, it is about Rusty and his ever expanding ego.

That's why he rushed to print, why he didn't do the work, why he put these people's future at risk by refusing to treat the story properly and give the people he's naming a genuine right of reply.

Rusty wants Alistair Clarkson's scalp, make his name, and he's prepared to risk the health and wellbeing of deeply vulnerable people to do it.

I've seen that happen plenty of times in journalism, I did it myself once and I still feel sick when I think about it.

And on Clarkson, do you honestly think I give THAT much of a s**t if Clarkson coaches us or not?

That I'd put Clarkson ahead of the brilliant culture of Cable (first ever indigenous coach), the Krakouers, the sublime Daniel Wells, Lindsay Thomas who was treated with disgusting racism by the wider AFL, Tarryn Thomas, Mia King etc that we have at North?

If Clarkson did even half of what's being alleged here, he's not welcome at Arden Street.

You dickheads on here have no idea how we North fans think.

Us sacking Clarkson tomorrow wouldn't even be in the top five shitty off field things to happen to us ffs.

If we sack him, we'll get a new coach and we'll play Round 1 next year just fine.

The old defamatory rant whilst claiming defamation trick.