No Oppo Supporters St.Kilda sack Brett Ratten

[gringo2011]

You are a really making a bellend of yourself today. Allen did his hip in the Final v Collingwood in 2008 and never played again. More revisionism

I just realised, I think she means Jesse Smith from North. Ross brought him in hoping to put him back together. I used to have a contact at North. They thought he could be one of the best players in the AFL if not for injury and were devastated to lose him. He was a waste of a pick but it wasn't like complete stab in the dark.

 

[Username Unknown]

I hear he is being paid big money to consult about choosing the next coach

“I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t want the job” I wouldn’t imagine him saying those words if he was a consultant. Given the circumstances and attention. You would be clear why you are there.

 

[Moquo]

Hipster cap?

yeah, I think we are only allowed four hipsters per club

 

[Shred]

Anyone know how long it takes to create the illusion of due diligence?
Getting restless here.

It’s all a show this week. It’ll be announced at start of next week with the statement that holds weight in the media “we’ve been speaking to Ross at length over the last week, we’re on the same page and feel confident he is the right coach going forward for our football team”. Aka we gauged Ross’ interest a while ago and spent the last week trying different reds.

 

[Joffaboy]

I just realised, I think she means Jesse Smith from North. Ross brought him in hoping to put him back together. I used to have a contact at North. They thought he could be one of the best players in the AFL if not for injury and were devastated to lose him. He was a waste of a pick but it wasn't like complete stab in the dark.

Saw him play at Port Melbourne one day for our two's and was an excellent player. Couldn't get right. Yeah a wasted pick, we picked him up @ pick 60 from the Roos.
Real waste

 

[stavro#4]

I don’t doubt that at all. But I do think we went too negative in 2010. Granted we were never really out of matches.

But Ross will know this and have adapted his plans. Am I still a bit nervous that we will adopt the “get to 60 points and dig in” game plan? Yes I am. But I am more excited that if RTB signs on that we will lift our standards across the board, have a game plan, have defined roles, have a forward line that leads, and have more hope at improvement.

So overall I am on board. I would not have been in 2012…

Of course we went negative.

Roo kicked 78 in 09
Kosi 48
Milney 46
Schneids 34

Total team: 352

We lost Rooey for 15 weeks in 2010.

Milney 57
Rooey 39
Schneider 39
Kosi 30

Total team:326

keep in mind that Rooey at this point was in his pomp. Took 2 to minimise his impact. Which was still huge.

Allowed Kosi to get off the leash.

It isn’t as simple as we were shit offensively. We lost the key component to the forward set up.

It would be like losing Max now.

 

[gringo2011]

I haven’t forgotten that there’s still question marks about whether a Ross Lyon team will kick enough goals to win a flag but it’s literally the only question mark about him as a coach. Rooey said it himself he creates an elite environment and we haven’t had that since he left. Just have to hope that one day he has some sort of Chris Scott-like epiphany where he realizes you need to be able to score heavily to win a flag.

Saints in 2009, 12 games over 100 points, our best game we kicked 25.11 161 against a good West Coast side, this year we had 2 games where we kicked over 100 points, the best being against the Tigers 18.9 117.

If we scored like the 2009 Ross Lyon Saints we'd be one of the highest scoring sides in the AFL now days.

 

[gringo2011]

So this is our focus now?

You lose the argument about how his sides perform on GF day, so now holistically it is that his sides don’t perform as well offensively as the other top sides.

Ignoring how strongly his sides perform defensively.

His attacks have gotten him to the big dance 3 times. Roughly 5 Prelims and 2 times his side has finished the H&A season at the top of the tree.

He legitimately has high performing sides.

Shouting her down isn't going to bring her around. She has the right to not like the appointment and express her opinion. If it goes well I'm sure she'll jump on board quickly. Samm's a good poster and loyal Saint.

 

[PandaG]

I don't actually know, why's he called Purple? Because he's a dickhead?

Exactly that
A massive purple dickhead

 

[hayes]

Anyone?

 

[pebblesofsand]

So this is our focus now?

You lose the argument about how his sides perform on GF day, so now holistically it is that his sides don’t perform as well offensively as the other top sides.

Ignoring how strongly his sides perform defensively.

His attacks have gotten him to the big dance 3 times. Roughly 5 Prelims and 2 times his side has finished the H&A season at the top of the tree.

He legitimately has high performing sides.

So how do his sides perform on Grand Final? They lose - every time.

And if you actually read the comment, you would see that I said his was incredibly successful defensively and if you want to go back and check the records you'll also see that we were the lowest scoring of the top 4 in each of those years (includes Freo as well).

So that's a pattern, low scores for + low scores against = 4 lost grand finals.

The funny thing about Stavro is that you know this is the case (that he will need to rejig his plan offensively) and you've acknowledged yourself so I'm not sure why you are arguing the point.

The same applies with his ego and that he will need to learn to take on differing opinions (again its something you have acknowledged).

I'll make it quite clear my opinion on Ross Lyon as its appearing more certain he'll be coach.

He's a good coach but not a great coach (no premierships simple as that)​

​

His lack of capacity to be inclusive or listen to alternatives is a concern. (My way or the hwy!!)​

​

Can he be adaptive enough to fit the way the game is now played.​

I think I've said it before that Dimma, Goodwin and Scott all eventually learnt they didn't know everything and they were told to listen to others and that brought them success.

My principal concern about Lyon is that he's spent the last 3 years having his ego massaged in the media. And that's rather different to having it challenged by a Football department, Assistant coaches and players.

So the question is whether that will reinforce his opinion of himself (and his strategies) or will he be able to accept other views and change his direction?

As I said, its looking like he will be coach so we have to hope he can change.

 

[L_W_P]

Shouting her down isn't going to bring her around. She has the right to not like the appointment and express her opinion. If it goes well I'm sure she'll jump on board quickly. Samm's a good poster and loyal Saint.

Had the absolute pleasure of sitting with sammm and her mum at the BnF a few years back.

Regardless of how you feel about her thoughts and opinions she's St Kilda for life boys and girls. Top quality person.

 

[Joffaboy]

Shouting her down isn't going to bring her around. She has the right to not like the appointment and express her opinion. If it goes well I'm sure she'll jump on board quickly. Samm's a good poster and loyal Saint.

Hang on, it is not 'shouting someone down' when he/she/or it (I don't care about gender on a football forum) is basically stating incorrect facts.

So she denigrates us saying we all have rose coloured glasses, but we can't respond to her rubbish about the gameplan being kick it to Roo, or it was the coaches fault we kicked points in a grand final or we tried to fix Allen when he did his hip in a final?

If in my opinion a post is rubbish, I have the right to respond and correct said rubbish.

 

[Joffaboy]

Had the absolute pleasure of sitting with sammm and her mum at the BnF a few years back.

Regardless of how you feel about her thoughts and opinions she's St Kilda for life boys and girls. Top quality person.

Who isn't here?

 

[stavro#4]

Shouting her down isn't going to bring her around. She has the right to not like the appointment and express her opinion. If it goes well I'm sure she'll jump on board quickly. Samm's a good poster and loyal Saint.

She called him out for not changing his style and that would have led to him winning a grand final.


His “style” took 2 teams to the cusp of glory. 2 perennial cellar dwellers.

It is baseless.

You don’t have to like him or the way he coaches a footy side to play. No issues with that.

But don’t claim what he should have done, when what he did was put 2 sides in a position 2 win it. Execution from players infront of the big sticks and an ungodly bounce is what stopped him from being revered.

 

[Joffaboy]

So how do his sides perform on Grand Final? They lose - every time.

As opposed to Sheldon. Alves, Blight, GT, Watters, Richo and Ratts who won every grand final they got us into.

Oh thats right, only Stan can be critisised for that.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Anyone?

Just picking out his office furniture now.

 

[gringo2011]

So how do his sides perform on Grand Final? They lose - every time.

And if you actually read the comment, you would see that I said his was incredibly successful defensively and if you want to go back and check the records you'll also see that we were the lowest scoring of the top 4 in each of those years (includes Freo as well).

So that's a pattern, low scores for + low scores against = 4 lost grand finals.

The funny thing about Stavro is that you know this is the case (that he will need to rejig his plan offensively) and you've acknowledged yourself so I'm not sure why you are arguing the point.

The same applies with his ego and that he will need to learn to take on differing opinions (again its something you have acknowledged).

I'll make it quite clear my opinion on Ross Lyon as its appearing more certain he'll be coach.

He's a good coach but not a great coach (no premierships simple as that)​

​

His lack of capacity to be inclusive or listen to alternatives is a concern. (My way or the hwy!!)​

​

Can he be adaptive enough to fit the way the game is now played.​

I think I've said it before that Dimma, Goodwin and Scott all eventually learnt they didn't know everything and they were told to listen to others and that brought them success.

My principal concern about Lyon is that he's spent the last 3 years having his ego massaged in the media. And that's rather different to having it challenged by a Football department, Assistant coaches and players.

So the question is whether that will reinforce his opinion of himself (and his strategies) or will he be able to accept other views and change his direction?

As I said, its looking like he will be coach so we have to hope he can change.

A lot of Geelong fans wanted Chris Scott gone recently because he couldn't get past the prelims. If you get top 4 and deep into finals you buy yourself tickets in the lottery. Sometimes your numbers don't come up but if you don't even get there you have zero chance.

I think the standards that he sets and the leadership that he'll instil will work regardless. He'll make them into an organised, well drilled side. Something everyone would agree is something that has allowed Sydney and Geelong to defy the equalisation measures because with well defined roles and standards you can beat sides with more talent and less focus regularly.

 

[True Believer]

Just picking out his office furniture now.

Actually, I heard he was supervising the painting crew blanking out Ratts name on the parking spot right outside the front door. Apparently, he doesn't want his name on the spot, he wants them to put

"Really, this huge car-park and you thought you'd park here? You're quite brilliant, aren't you?

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

It was drafting post John Peake that really stuffed us. Trout was an assistant coach who stood out when he had some issues and the club found a role for him. If you give Peake: Stuv, Stanley, Lynch, Cripps etc. For the couple of years that he was there he was quite productive but post that we have had a very lean patch where the best recruits under Trout were Ross, Sinclair and Marshall off the rookie list and Billings.

Zero AAs, zero superstars from a much higher suite of picks and then throw in a few self inflicted wounds under Pelican and we really cooked the list. We didn't spend on development or footy department so even the players we did get were pretty much left to develop themselves and the rest is history.

Gags and Lethers haven't been great but in comparison they looks like masters of list building.

It was a combination of both.

Peake's misses (and it must be said, a few of Bevo's late in his tenure) meant that we didn't have guys in their prime to support the likes of Billings & co when they were kids. It's easy to forget the quality of the senior guys when Roo & co were first drafted & how rudderless we were once Roo retired (despite Gears' best efforts).

The lack of seasoned AFL quality players also meant we had no trade capital to boost the rebuild. So instead of doing what Collingwood had the luxury of doing with Shaw & a few others, we sacrificed the likes of McEvoy, who should have been been there to build around.

Throw in free agency & compromised drafts & it was a shocking time to not only be rebuilding but mismanaged horribly.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

We’ve gone from driving a Commodore to a Ferrari and people are upset. FMD.

 

[L_W_P]

A lot of Geelong fans wanted Chris Scott gone recently because he couldn't get past the prelims. If you get top 4 and deep into finals you buy yourself tickets in the lottery. Sometimes your numbers don't come up but if you don't even get there you have zero chance.

I think the standards that he sets and the leadership that he'll instil will work regardless. He'll make them into an organised, well drilled side. Something everyone would agree is something that has allowed Sydney and Geelong to defy the equalisation measures because with well defined roles and standards you can beat sides with more talent and less focus regularly.

Exactly.

And then you get to front of the line for players in the trade market because you can sell the "You can be the difference" aspect to them. That then keeps you in contention almost perpetually.

 

[stavro#4]

So how do his sides perform on Grand Final? They lose - every time.

And if you actually read the comment, you would see that I said his was incredibly successful defensively and if you want to go back and check the records you'll also see that we were the lowest scoring of the top 4 in each of those years (includes Freo as well).

So that's a pattern, low scores for + low scores against = 4 lost grand finals.

The funny thing about Stavro is that you know this is the case (that he will need to rejig his plan offensively) and you've acknowledged yourself so I'm not sure why you are arguing the point.

The same applies with his ego and that he will need to learn to take on differing opinions (again its something you have acknowledged).

I'll make it quite clear my opinion on Ross Lyon as its appearing more certain he'll be coach.

He's a good coach but not a great coach (no premierships simple as that)​

​

His lack of capacity to be inclusive or listen to alternatives is a concern. (My way or the hwy!!)​

​

Can he be adaptive enough to fit the way the game is now played.​

I think I've said it before that Dimma, Goodwin and Scott all eventually learnt they didn't know everything and they were told to listen to others and that brought them success.

My principal concern about Lyon is that he's spent the last 3 years having his ego massaged in the media. And that's rather different to having it challenged by a Football department, Assistant coaches and players.

So the question is whether that will reinforce his opinion of himself (and his strategies) or will he be able to accept other views and change his direction?

As I said, its looking like he will be coach so we have to hope he can change.

So now we are focusing on that he didn’t win the big dance so can’t be considered a great coach.

Guess Harves/Lockett/Rooey weren’t great players because they never won a flag.

That his poor attack is the reason.

Which is funny as GT was all attack and no defence and we never got to the big dance.

Ultimately- you can argue among yourselves regarding this after this post. It’s exhausting.

But he had a top 4 defence every year from 2009-2015. 2 of those years were historical - from memory 09 was the greatest defensive side in history, 2014 or 15 not far off.

If you are holding sides to scores like this, I’m not sure the assessment that his attack was crap in comparison is fair. Maybe there is a better balance? But that’s another discussion. There is a trade off to having a defence like this.

09 and 13 - he was bad kicking from winning a granny.

10 - HIS COACHING got us back into a game against by far the best side in the league post Roos Hammy and the bounce of a ball would have stopped all this crap posting.

That Freo side has no right being that successful with the level of talent they had.

After 08 - the word on stkilda was that we didn’t have enough talent to match Geelong or the up coming Hawthorn dynasty.

He had us in position to win and bridged the gap.

Now continue hypothetical talks about how he is out dated needs to change his game plan.

Ultimately you’ll get an evolution. Not a revolution.

You will get the same Ross at his core as back then. Maybe some make up and a more polished media performer to rub your bellies.

But the club has brought into him. That means we will see more football that “didn’t win grand finals”.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Lots of talk on twitter that the contract is being signed today

 

[FQFjt]

One thing that constantly irked me about Ratts' time was the repeated references back to supposedly 'frank and honest' discussions that happened in Sydney during a trip in 2021. Twelve months later and we were still hearing about the positive effects of those discussions (until the season went to shit and then it was never mentioned again).

The thing about Ross is that every single day will be the equivalent of that one discussion in Sydney. He is unapologetically demanding. That is what is required. The fact that some contrary view - that modern players need to be coddled and nurtured rather than pushed and pushed and pushed - took hold in the AFL industry for a while is absurd. Given the leadership traits of our current (and long term) captain, this is even more important for our club right now.

To me, the Lyon tactics are secondary to that. Having listened to Lyon in the media, I don't think his raw tactical insights were all that different to anyone else. It is his ability to extract maximum performance from his players in pursuit of those tactics which is key to his success. Lyon's teams were ultra successful defensively not because he cracked the tactical codes but because the players were fully committed and in sync to a coherent plan. That ability to extract maximum performance and buy in can be channelled in pursuit of other tactics too.