Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 2

[Gethelred]

This is a sensitive area for some. With that in mind, I'm going to remind a few posters a few things:

• personal attacks are against forum rules. From this point, any attacks that are directed at another poster will be treated with a warning, then infractions and threadbans if it continues.
• the spread of misinformation is also against the rules. This is taken very seriously by moderation, and you will be asked to support your opinion from time to time. If you cannot satisfy this, you will be provided an opportunity to retract your post; if you do not, you will receive an infraction and a threadban on that basis.

This is a forum for adults, and I'd appreciate you all treating each other appropriately.

 

[mighty tiges]

 

[Spearman]

Only took Ukraine just over 8 months.

At the same rare of attrition, June next year Russia wont have any left.

and one might think it was their better half

 

[Lethality]

Please, I understand and share your abhorrence at what is happening in Ukraine but denying absolute facts doesnt's change what happened.

Russia has been screaming about NATO and it's intimidatory presence and how it, Russia, views NATO as a direct threat to it's security. Ukraine, not only laughed it off like many other "Western" nations did, they said clearly and unequivocally that they were preparing to join NATO.

Russia says it has no problem with its neighbour Finland joining NATO. Why is there only a concern with ukraine?

 

[Visions]

Who are they going to volunteer to put up the street sign?

The Russian clowns really live in their own deluded world.

 

[mighty tiges]

 

[CD Xbow]

Please, I understand and share your abhorrence at what is happening in Ukraine but denying absolute facts doesnt's change what happened.

Russia has been screaming about NATO and it's intimidatory presence and how it, Russia, views NATO as a direct threat to it's security. Ukraine, not only laughed it off like many other "Western" nations did, they said clearly and unequivocally that they were preparing to join NATO. That friend, is an undeniable fact. It is not a reason for invasion as far as I and you and the vast majority of us are concerned but for Russia, especially after the monsterous build up of NATO troops on it's borders by the psychopath Trump, viewed it differently.

What I was hoping Chomsky's commentary would do was to bring some sort of clarity as to why this eventuated. I believe that this tragedy can only be halted if nations sit down and work through what is required for this to end. Yes, I know, the best way for this to cease is if Russia buggers off but that will not happen.

Ukraine has point blank refused to negotiate with Russia unless Putin is no longer in charge of Russia. This is causing major concern for many countries throughout the world. Zelensky is being stupid if he thinks that Putin will somehow be removed from power and he, Zelensky, is engaging in the same provocative stance as he and Ukraine did before Russia's invasion. Again, please note that I am not siding with Russia or Putin and I am opposed to war and violence full stop but we cannot just simply be blind to the geopolitics in play here.

Forces in Ukraine as in Russia and elsewhere aren't as pure as the driven snow as you and the rest of us around here would like. That too is a fact and to think that our purity of thought and principles is somehow going to win the day is naive I would say.

We may think that Russia had nothing to fear but we ain't Russia! and we should not have just disregarded Russia's concerns over many years and Ukraine, egged on by the far right both in Ukraine itself and in other countries, minorities but with loud voices and way out of proportion influence, this lot just poked it's tongue out to Russia and basically said, "whatcha goin' to do about it?" and Russia did something about it.

I want this to end but it will not end militarily unless there is a nuke dropped but that is incredibly unlikely. The only way it will end is diplomatically and Zelensky must come to the negotiating table regardless of who sits across that table or there will continue to be violence and bloodshed.

I'm afraid I disagree with most of what you have said. You seem to wish to reward Russias aggression with a 21C version of appeasement. Prior to WWII Europe tried appeasing a dictator with expansionist designs, it didn't work, and I think the same would apply to Russia. We know Putin wants to extend the Russian empire; he has said that. That's the reason for the invasion. That's the geopolitics that you seem to blind to or naive about.

No one made Russia invade Ukraine, there was no real security threat to Russia. NATO never has been a threat to Russia. Besides It's written into western DNA - DO NOT INVDE RUSSIA. It never end's well. Putin has run a strong anti-western narrative to support his regime while it rots and in practice is failing.

I also disagree it will end 'with a nuke'. There is a very good chance of an outright Ukraine victory.

Ukraine have not 'point blank' refused to negotiate with Russia, they have made return of territory a requirement.

I note your use of false moral equivalence, this is a common tactic of Russia. When you consider the range and vast number of documented atrocities the RF have committed in Ukraine, I find it more than a little disgusting to suggest equivalence.

 

[jatz14]

Please, I understand and share your abhorrence at what is happening in Ukraine but denying absolute facts doesnt's change what happened.

Russia has been screaming about NATO and it's intimidatory presence and how it, Russia, views NATO as a direct threat to it's security. Ukraine, not only laughed it off like many other "Western" nations did, they said clearly and unequivocally that they were preparing to join NATO. That friend, is an undeniable fact. It is not a reason for invasion as far as I and you and the vast majority of us are concerned but for Russia, especially after the monsterous build up of NATO troops on it's borders by the psychopath Trump, viewed it differently.

What I was hoping Chomsky's commentary would do was to bring some sort of clarity as to why this eventuated. I believe that this tragedy can only be halted if nations sit down and work through what is required for this to end. Yes, I know, the best way for this to cease is if Russia buggers off but that will not happen.

Ukraine has point blank refused to negotiate with Russia unless Putin is no longer in charge of Russia. This is causing major concern for many countries throughout the world. Zelensky is being stupid if he thinks that Putin will somehow be removed from power and he, Zelensky, is engaging in the same provocative stance as he and Ukraine did before Russia's invasion. Again, please note that I am not siding with Russia or Putin and I am opposed to war and violence full stop but we cannot just simply be blind to the geopolitics in play here.

Forces in Ukraine as in Russia and elsewhere aren't as pure as the driven snow as you and the rest of us around here would like. That too is a fact and to think that our purity of thought and principles is somehow going to win the day is naive I would say.

We may think that Russia had nothing to fear but we ain't Russia! and we should not have just disregarded Russia's concerns over many years and Ukraine, egged on by the far right both in Ukraine itself and in other countries, minorities but with loud voices and way out of proportion influence, this lot just poked it's tongue out to Russia and basically said, "whatcha goin' to do about it?" and Russia did something about it.

I want this to end but it will not end militarily unless there is a nuke dropped but that is incredibly unlikely. The only way it will end is diplomatically and Zelensky must come to the negotiating table regardless of who sits across that table or there will continue to be violence and bloodshed.

If you want a negotiated peace, you have several issues to face.

1. Are Ukrainians going to see a president that negotiates a deal that sees Russia keep some of what it stole by force, as treasonous. My feeling is, enough of them will that this makes such a deal barely possible, even if the Ukrainian president wanted to do it.

2. If I was a Ukrainian I want it to be impossible for Russia to use the peace, to build an army that fixes the identified deficiencies, so it can try again later, with a more modern, better trained, bigger army. I do not want agreements, commitments, deals, international observers, UN peace keepers, or any of that other shit that Putin or his successor can ignore any time they feel like it. I want it to be IMPOSSIBLE, for Russia to make a successful attack. Until Russia and the international community pushing for a deal present something that does this, negotiations do not start. This is the pre condition for negotiations.
I am thinking, Take the width of Ukraine, project that distance into Russia, any Russian forces in that area get matched by NATO forces in Ukraine, excluding Ukrainian forces. So, Russia moves a bomber squadron into this region, NATO bases an equivalent amount in Ukraine. etc, etc.

3. Compensation. Billions, as in, hundreds of billions. Dollars, Not rubbles. For every square km of territory Russia wants to keep, add more billions.

 

[Zidane98]

Please, I understand and share your abhorrence at what is happening in Ukraine but denying absolute facts doesnt's change what happened.

Russia has been screaming about NATO and it's intimidatory presence and how it, Russia, views NATO as a direct threat to it's security. Ukraine, not only laughed it off like many other "Western" nations did, they said clearly and unequivocally that they were preparing to join NATO. That friend, is an undeniable fact. It is not a reason for invasion as far as I and you and the vast majority of us are concerned but for Russia, especially after the monsterous build up of NATO troops on it's borders by the psychopath Trump, viewed it differently.

What I was hoping Chomsky's commentary would do was to bring some sort of clarity as to why this eventuated. I believe that this tragedy can only be halted if nations sit down and work through what is required for this to end. Yes, I know, the best way for this to cease is if Russia buggers off but that will not happen.

Ukraine has point blank refused to negotiate with Russia unless Putin is no longer in charge of Russia. This is causing major concern for many countries throughout the world. Zelensky is being stupid if he thinks that Putin will somehow be removed from power and he, Zelensky, is engaging in the same provocative stance as he and Ukraine did before Russia's invasion. Again, please note that I am not siding with Russia or Putin and I am opposed to war and violence full stop but we cannot just simply be blind to the geopolitics in play here.

Forces in Ukraine as in Russia and elsewhere aren't as pure as the driven snow as you and the rest of us around here would like. That too is a fact and to think that our purity of thought and principles is somehow going to win the day is naive I would say.

We may think that Russia had nothing to fear but we ain't Russia! and we should not have just disregarded Russia's concerns over many years and Ukraine, egged on by the far right both in Ukraine itself and in other countries, minorities but with loud voices and way out of proportion influence, this lot just poked it's tongue out to Russia and basically said, "whatcha goin' to do about it?" and Russia did something about it.

I want this to end but it will not end militarily unless there is a nuke dropped but that is incredibly unlikely. The only way it will end is diplomatically and Zelensky must come to the negotiating table regardless of who sits across that table or there will continue to be violence and bloodshed.

- NATO already borders Russia in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia & Norway.

Thanks to Putin doing a Hitler Finland / Sweden have now joined NATO. You cant blame them either witn Putin at the helm.

Lets be clear - the only reason Putin does not like NATO is it makes efforts by Vlad to install a puppet regine for Russia's benefit very difficult

Putin incorrectly believes Ukraine is not a state and here we are today - he invades because Ukraine dont want to be subjugated by Putin & co.

Can you negotiate with someone who has that mindset? It would be like asking Jewsih people to negotiate peace with Hitler. Putins views on Ukraine are outright fascist & disgusting.

 

[jatz14]

- NATO already borders Russia in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia & Norway.

Thanks to Putin doing a Hitler Finland / Sweden have now joined NATO. You cant blame them either witn Putin at the helm.

Lets be clear - the only reason Putin does not like NATO is it makes efforts by Vlad to install a puppet regine for Russia's benefit very difficult

Putin incorrectly believes Ukraine is not a state and here we are today - he invades because Ukraine dont want to be subjugated by Putin & co.

Can you negotiate with someone who has that mindset? It would be like asking Jewsih people to negotiate peace with Hitler. Putins views on Ukraine are outright fascist & disgusting.

In a way, It is NATOS fault. Not because Vlad thinks NATO will invade Russia through Ukraine, but because he knows it makes invading Ukraine from Russia impossible.

 

[Northalives]

Russia says it has no problem with its neighbour Finland joining NATO. Why is there only a concern with ukraine?

It is because of access to the Sea of Azov, the Black Sea and the Crimean Peninsula which are critticaly important to Russia economically and security wise.

These conflicts aren't new; they've been happening since the 1200's because the importance of this geographical area.

 

[Northalives]

If you want a negotiated peace, you have several issues to face.

1. Are Ukrainians going to see a president that negotiates a deal that sees Russia keep some of what it stole by force, as treasonous. My feeling is, enough of them will that this makes such a deal barely possible, even if the Ukrainian president wanted to do it.

2. If I was a Ukrainian I want it to be impossible for Russia to use the peace, to build an army that fixes the identified deficiencies, so it can try again later, with a more modern, better trained, bigger army. I do not want agreements, commitments, deals, international observers, UN peace keepers, or any of that other s**t that Putin or his successor can ignore any time they feel like it. I want it to be IMPOSSIBLE, for Russia to make a successful attack. Until Russia and the international community pushing for a deal present something that does this, negotiations do not start. This is the pre condition for negotiations.
I am thinking, Take the width of Ukraine, project that distance into Russia, any Russian forces in that area get matched by NATO forces in Ukraine, excluding Ukrainian forces. So, Russia moves a bomber squadron into this region, NATO bases an equivalent amount in Ukraine. etc, etc.

3. Compensation. Billions, as in, hundreds of billions. Dollars, Not rubbles. For every square km of territory Russia wants to keep, add more billions.

As this conflict continues, the more difficult it will become to get a negotiated peace and the ones that will suffer are the people in that region. That's all that really bothers me - Putin, Zalensky and all the other bover boys can go and get f***ed.

 

[Zidane98]

It is because of access to the Sea of Azov, the Black Sea and the Crimean Peninsula which are critticaly important to Russia economically and security wise.

These conflicts aren't new; they've been happening since the 1200's because the importance of this geographical area.

Russia had access to all of those pre invasion. They even had a lease on Sevastopol military base until 2042 (doubt that will be honoured once Crimea returns to its legal owner Ukraine).

Pretty obvious why these things are only a problem for Vlad when he doesnt have a puppet installed in Ukraine.

 

[Northalives]

- NATO already borders Russia in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia & Norway.

Thanks to Putin doing a Hitler Finland / Sweden have now joined NATO. You cant blame them either witn Putin at the helm.

Lets be clear - the only reason Putin does not like NATO is it makes efforts by Vlad to install a puppet regine for Russia's benefit very difficult

Putin incorrectly believes Ukraine is not a state and here we are today - he invades because Ukraine dont want to be subjugated by Putin & co.

Can you negotiate with someone who has that mindset? It would be like asking Jewsih people to negotiate peace with Hitler. Putins views on Ukraine are outright fascist & disgusting.

The only reason that Putin doesn't like NATO is because NATO has absolutely no reason to exist after the disolution of the Soviet Union. It is a vessel for American Foreign Policy.

 

[Crankyhawk]

There was every reason for them to invade the Crimea. It's been one of the most fought over bits of land in world history.

Russia loses the Crimea, and they lose access to the Mediterranean for their Black sea fleet. That's literally what this whole current conflict is about. Russia want a land bridge between Russia and the Crimean Peninsula for their forces.

Can’t always get what you want

 

[Lethality]

It is because of access to the Sea of Azov, the Black Sea and the Crimean Peninsula which are critticaly important to Russia economically and security wise.

These conflicts aren't new; they've been happening since the 1200's because the importance of this geographical area.

Ok but earlier you said Russia was intimidated by NATOs proximity.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

As this conflict continues, the more difficult it will become to get a negotiated peace and the ones that will suffer are the people in that region. That's all that really bothers me - Putin, Zalensky and all the other bover boys can go and get f***ed.

There you go again inserting that false moral equivalency into your sentences.

 

[mighty tiges]

Another embarrassing retreat and defeat and of course that p.o.s. hiding in the Kremlin resorts to another tantrum directed nowhere near the front at civilians

 

[Northalives]

Russia had access to all of those pre invasion. They even had a lease on Sevastopol military base until 2042 (doubt that will be honoured once Crimea returns to its legal owner Ukraine).

Pretty obvious why these things are only a problem for Vlad when he doesnt have a puppet installed in Ukraine.

That's it exactly right brother, it did have access but it was the far-right coups in Ukraine that change the geoploitics of that area. The Russian and Ukraine Parliaments both ratified treaties which both the Russian's and the Ukrainians agreed to only for Tony Abbotts mate, Poroshenko, with the interference of various "foreign services" staging a coup and then promising to just disregard these treaties and set loose the fascist paramilitary groups who terrorised anyone and everyone they thought was a threat to the motherland.

This precipitated in Russia invading Crimea to militarilyy enforce it's rights under the said treaty to have a base on the Crimean Peninsular. It was when Zelensky, to curry favour with the far-right whom he needed to "govern" because the he had absoltely no idea and had lost nearly all the confidence of the Ukrainian population, said he was preparing to join NATO. That was it: cue Russian invasion to protect what it perceived as a direct threat to it's security.

Pleas man, don't think for one moment I am backing or apologising for Putin and Russia. I have spent my whole life standing up for peace. What I find myself doing here is what the bloody mainstream media should have done and that is reported on the circumstances that led to this situation without fear or favour!
Geez, the media has a duty to report on the atrocities that are taking place in that part of the world but bloody hell, they also have a duty to report what and why this terrible situation occurred, not just simplistic "good guys vs bad guys" stuff. It usually never like that.

 

[Northalives]

There you go again inserting that false moral equivalency into your sentences.

What's this moral equivalency crap? Zelensky, Putin, Poroshenko and the other vested interests are as culpable as each other. Don't try and run away from or hide from these truths: moral equivalency indeed! They are pigs, each and every one of them.

 

[Present Not Past]

It is because of access to the Sea of Azov, the Black Sea and the Crimean Peninsula which are critticaly important to Russia economically and security wise.

These conflicts aren't new; they've been happening since the 1200's because the importance of this geographical area.

The world turned a collective blind eye to the invasion of Crimea, basically as an appeasement to Putin for the reasons you have mentioned.
The invasion of Ukraine and the attack on the capital Kiev is a totally different situation and it required a totally different response.
Putin, and the Russian people, are suffering from some very poor decisions from the Kremlin.

 

[Northalives]

Ok but earlier you said Russia was intimidated by NATOs proximity.

Oh they are and they have jumped up and down about it for years but Ukraine joining NATO is whole new sphere for Russia. It's the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

 

[CD Xbow]

As this conflict continues, the more difficult it will become to get a negotiated peace and the ones that will suffer are the people in that region. That's all that really bothers me - Putin, Zalensky and all the other bover boys can go and get f***ed.

More false moral equivalence. Putin started the war. Putin has caused the suffering. Putin's actions have killed hundreds of thousands.

 

[Northalives]

The world turned a collective blind eye to the invasion of Crimea, basically as an appeasement to Putin for the reasons you have mentioned.
The invasion of Ukraine and the attack on the capital Kiev is a totally different situation and it required a totally different response.
Putin, and the Russian people, are suffering from some very poor decisions from the Kremlin.

I don't think that the motivation for turning a blind eye to Russia's invasion of Crimea was an appeasement to Putin as much as it was a hope that Ukraine would pull it's head in. The world didn't want to be seen as approving Russia's/Putins invasion of Crimea but it also didn't want to be seen to be approving the breaking of what was a legally binding agreement between sovereign nations so what it did, was just try and ignore it and hope that was that.

You know mate, I feel really heartbroken that the UN has been so undermined by those who championed it's setting up that it's basically redundant. This conflict as well as that of the Crimean invasion by Russia and the disregard of ratified obligations between sovereign countries as well as the complete disregard of rulings, by International Courts, has taken us back to what the world was like pre World War Two.

I feared that I may cause some angst coming back on here to the brilliant people who participate on this thread and who feel as revulsed at what is happening just like myself.

I apologise for causing exasperation to the good people around here but I feel really strongly that we need to be even tempered about this part of world history so we can, hopefully, stop this happening again.

 

[CD Xbow]

Oh they are and they have jumped up and down about it for years but Ukraine joining NATO is whole new sphere for Russia. It's the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

Rubbish. As pointed out earlier Finland has joined NATO and Russia has not invaded. It was never about NATO, it's about empire. Russia has invaded its neighbours for centuries before NATO. Russia is trying to hold onto being an empire that it simply can't afford. The USSR had the same problem., and I expect the RF to collapse further.

WRT to some of your recent posts, they are starting to look like RT talking points.

 

[Northalives]

More false moral equivalence. Putin started the war. Putin has caused the suffering. Putin's actions have killed hundreds of thousands.

and the "west" has just let the ***t just do what he likes. Just as it let the far-right openly fascist Ukrainian Government of Poroshenko's and it's para-military fascist battalions, inflict terror and atrocities on Ukrainians who didn't want any part of fascism. This was the first openly fascist Government in Europe since the Second World War ended and Zalensky, who came to power promising to end crime and corruption, ended up getting into bed with these paramilitary groups and as a consequence, he had a grand total of some 17% approval of the 38% that bothered turning out at the election that put him into power in the first place!

Where was the outrage for innocent people being burnt in building by the fascists, the bashing and burning of human beings by these Ukrainian patriots? Where was the West then mate? What's the f****ng difference between the butcher Putin and the butchers in the Ukraine? Is that more false moral equivalency?