Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 2

[Gethelred]

This is a sensitive area for some. With that in mind, I'm going to remind a few posters a few things:

• personal attacks are against forum rules. From this point, any attacks that are directed at another poster will be treated with a warning, then infractions and threadbans if it continues.
• the spread of misinformation is also against the rules. This is taken very seriously by moderation, and you will be asked to support your opinion from time to time. If you cannot satisfy this, you will be provided an opportunity to retract your post; if you do not, you will receive an infraction and a threadban on that basis.

This is a forum for adults, and I'd appreciate you all treating each other appropriately.

 

[Zidane98]

You thought you could escape death hey?

Another example of mobilisation going swimmingly.

I would also be refusing to fly on one of their stolen passenger jets complete with dodgy parts.

 

[Present Not Past]

Russia knew how much this war and the needed reconstruction to follow was going to cost in the worst case scenario, the Donbass will never come close to paying for it.

It's interesting that you use the word "war". Putin never does.
So Russia has declared war on Ukraine and has invaded a neutral country.
I think that justifies everything that NATO and the US are doing.
Not that dissimilar to providing Lend Lease to the USSR and their war against Nazism and the Allied landings in North Africa, Italy and France to liberate Europe.

 

[Mateyman]

OK, we're on the same page now, but heads up mate, it's a really bad idea to cherry pick from sources and not read the rest.

From your own link...

The reason people fled was:

...[p]eople that lived in separatist-controlled areas were experiencing "complete absence of rule of law, reports of arbitrary detention, torture and incommunicado detention, and no access to real redress mechanisms". In addition, the report noted "allegations of violations perpetrated with impunity by Ukrainian law enforcement officials—mainly elements of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU)—including enforced disappearances, arbitrary and incommunicado detention, and torture and ill-treatment".[12][13]


It probably wasn't your intention to highlight the kind of people operating within the SBU and how much they contributed to the horrors.

And before that, your own link says:


Non-governmental organisations, such as Amnesty International, also raised concerns about the behaviour of some Ukrainian volunteer battalions. Amnesty International said that they often acted like "renegade gangs", and were implicated in torture, abductions, and summary executions.[4][5][6]


Again, the internationally acquired evidence clearly states both sides were guilty of unspeakable crimes inflicted on civilians.

As for people fleeing the area, they didn't just flee into other parts of Ukraine, they fled into Russia too - well over a million of them and the same thing happened in this war.

Ukrainians in Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

People flee to where they have the best chance to start again and often that involves family help.

Yeah so the areas have been effectively ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians who previously lived there (if you're hanging around under the current regime you're more likely Russian than Ukrainian). Hence, there is no legitimacy to any demographic figures about the separatist controlled areas.

In a war I've got no doubt that many segments of the Ukrainian army have done horrific things. This is terrible and should be dealt with, but is also likely in all wars on all sides. That's not really anything to do with what I said.

How would you prefer the violent overthrow of a democratically elected President to be described?

"Marched out at gunpoint" conveniently ignores the hundreds of protestors killed.

 

[Mobbs]

LMAO, of course it did!

Yes. Don't blame me if you've never been near a school.

 

[Mobbs]

ha ha. Braver than me. I would not try a convo in Russian except some basic greetings, polite thank you etc etc

I remember in Ukraine a few times I asked a few strangers essentially do you understand English?, which I would pronounce like angleski for them, and 90% would say, not very well, which would always makes me laugh because I would think, if you understood that you clearly know more of my language than I do of yours. Meaning their understanding of English well advanced compared to mine of Russian or Ukranian. I think it would only be easy to learn such languages by being there for months or years in it everyday. I find it a lot easier to read as somehow remember enough of cryllic alphabet to stumble through reading in my head and make some sense of it. Not sure there much point in ever taking up a fun challenge to learn the Russian language properly for myself in future as the s**t that gone on kind of makes me never want to travel there.

I wanna get there one day. Problem is that the wife never knew which part of Ukraine her family came from. I got other ppl I can meet there, and had one youngn from Russia say yesterday they'd travel to meet me, but I just can't seemyself getting there.
I still struggle with the cyrillic. I am better with just transliterated Russian ( you and I sometimes disagree over spelling but of course the reality is that we are both wrong lol ).

 

[Mobbs]

Mongolia may not be a great option, unless temporary - as it’s difficult to get across the border into China - and basically your options to get out of Mongolia are either Russia or China.

Lovely people though - and if it got you away long enough for the war to end, maybe you could cross back into Russia again ??

Get across the border into China? ... what are you saying about Mongolia Ted!?

 

[Mobbs]

Come one, come all. From the underage to the pensioners.

The more l see of this mobilisation mess, the more confident l am that it wont make any difference to the final outcome. It will prolong the war but Russia is still *ed on the other side of it.

This is pure insanity. And I've just got out of another text convo with a 20-something russian female friend who says she "knows Russia is doing everything right". There is almost zero reason to give any benefit of doubt to any Russian anymore, unless if they've left or are trying to leave the country.

 

[Visions]

Lol. This will definitely get you out of mobilisation. But it might cause some other issues.

 

[Visions]

I love these mobilisation videos. These guys will tear themselves apart before the UAF have the chance themselves

 

[Frank Grimes]

I love these mobilisation videos. These guys will tear themselves apart before the UAF have the chance themselves

I will start with a disclaimer that I often find this channel has a fair amount of inaccuracies, however even if a fraction of it is true then these people will be messed up before they even reach the battlefield.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Lol. This will definitely get you out of mobilisation. But it might cause some other issues.

I can just see the Russian's going 'ok, no training required, put him on the first train to Lyman'

 

[TedDougChris]

Get across the border into China? ... what are you saying about Mongolia Ted!?

I’m pretty sure they built a fence to keep the rabbits out !! Just a bit tricky if you have dodgy hammies like I do !!

 

[CD Xbow]

Lol. This will definitely get you out of mobilisation. But it might cause some other issues.

It would put you at high risk of lead poisoning.

 

[footyfan1978]

Yeah so the areas have been effectively ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians who previously lived there (if you're hanging around under the current regime you're more likely Russian than Ukrainian). Hence, there is no legitimacy to any demographic figures about the separatist controlled areas.

In a war I've got no doubt that many segments of the Ukrainian army have done horrific things. This is terrible and should be dealt with, but is also likely in all wars on all sides. That's not really anything to do with what I said.


"Marched out at gunpoint" conveniently ignores the hundreds of protestors killed.

He was not marched out at gunpoint. That is just blatant lies from disinformation merchants that the gullible swallow as fits some narrative for their looney take on the world. He left by helicopter.

 

[TedDougChris]

Get across the border into China? ... what are you saying about Mongolia Ted!?

It's a really nice place, but it's not a first world country (nor is Russian right now), it's a third world/hoping to get to second world country. It's very poor in places and poor services and utilities. Which is fine if you are used to it and have family and everyone works together to get along. But not if you have nothing and are fleeing for your life...

Heading over the border into China isn't physically easy - but also doesn't really improve your lot much either. The IMAR isn't much better just over the border unless you are in the bigger cities with a bit of money.

 

[Zidane98]

He was not marched out at gunpoint. That is just blatant lies from disinformation merchants that the gullible swallow as fits some narrative for their looney take on the world. He left by helicopter.

Yep. Typical pro Russian disinformation.

Article 111 of the Ukranian constiution stipulates a president will.be impeached if the majority of the Rada (226 votes or greater) vote to do so.


In the case of Yanukovych there were 328 votes in favour of impeaching him. His removal was definitely not a coup or military / violent in any way. This is the Russian version of events purported mosty because Putin was salty about his puppet being removed from power and him not being able to exert influence on Ukraine any longer.

 

[Chief]

 

[bourbons]

As for NATO not being a factor for Russia, Poland's recent missile 'defence' base (which can be very quickly and easily turned into an offensive launch site) is 100km from the Russian border. As part of NATO, with several nuclear armed members, they can land a nuke in Moscow in a matter of minutes. How did the US react when Russia tried to install nuke capable facilities on its doorstep in Cuba? How did we react when somewhere as distant as the Solomon Islands possibly falls under Chinese influence?

So why no similar response previously from Russia over Estonia and Latvia, NATO countries that literally share a border with Russia?

When the Soviet Union agreed to allow the reunification of Germany, Russia was promised that NATO would "not move one inch to the East."

No, thats not correct, or at the very least not as clear cut as you are presenting it. Gorbachev himself says there was no promise outside of Germany.

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

Ukraine: the history behind Russia’s claim that Nato promised not to expand to the east

Russia insists that there was an agreement not to expand Nato eastwards after the end of the USSR. History begs to differ.

theconversation.com

Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated.

Mikhail Gorbachev himself said the question of NATO's expansion didn't come up in discussions when he was Soviet leader. That hasn't stopped the assertion that NATO and the United States misled Moscow from becoming a central grievance for Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin.

www.rferl.org

‘There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’ - Harvard Law School

Robert Zoellick, the U.S. diplomat who helped negotiate the end of the Cold War, says Vladimir Putin’s claims about Ukraine are part of a disinformation campaign.

today.law.harvard.edu

Did NATO ‘betray’ Russia by expanding to the East?

The Kremlin claims the West broke a promise it made in the 1990s not to expand NATO, and is now using this claim to justify threats to invade Ukraine.

www.france24.com

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

 

[bourbons]

Ukrainian claims...

You've mentioned this a few times now - that the vast majority of information coming out are statements by Ukraine and can pretty much be viewed as propaganda. But you also seem to be taking as fact or at least face value information that I haven't seen independently corroborated anywhere or offered by anyone other than obvious Russian propagandists. Stuff like;

• Russia still a huge functional standing army and hasn't used their best equipment yet
• Kyiv was never a target
• Zero Ukrainian citizens forcibly removed to Russia

Doesn't seem all that consistent an approach, to put it mildly.

That last one in particular seems fairly out there to me. Russian 'filtration camps' have been reported on extensively, interviews conducted with people who have experienced them etc.

“We Had No Choice”

The 71-page report, “‘We Had No Choice’: ‘Filtration’ and the War Crime of Forcibly Transferring Ukrainian Civilians to Russia,” documents the transfers of Ukrainian civilians. The transfers are a serious violation of the laws of war that constitute war crimes and potential crimes against...

www.hrw.org

 

[Frank Grimes]

It's a really nice place, but it's not a first world country (nor is Russian right now), it's a third world/hoping to get to second world country. It's very poor in places and poor services and utilities. Which is fine if you are used to it and have family and everyone works together to get along. But not if you have nothing and are fleeing for your life...

Heading over the border into China isn't physically easy - but also doesn't really improve your lot much either. The IMAR isn't much better just over the border unless you are in the bigger cities with a bit of money.

My observation of China from my trip about half a decade ago is that it appears to be a mix of first world and third world. The big cities like Shanghai are very developed, even more so than Melbourne and Sydney here. While the country towns in rural areas are under developed and in third world conditions.

Natually to live in the big cities like Shanghai is very expensive.

I haven't been to Russia, but I imagine it would be the same in that Moscow and St Petersburg would be very developed close to first world conditions, but outside of those cities will be third world conditions.

 

[Mobbs]

I remember this video, the family seem so strong. The mum's an absolute champ.

 

[Mobbs]

Chatting to a Russian mate this morning (his yesterday evening) I told him how a bunch of Russian friends had let me down, and he replied as follows. I asked him if I could quote this text, to which he immediately agreed. At the end his wish to "not talk about it again" is in terms of future repeats of such events as this invasion - not the current convo/invasion.

I don’t give a damn about everyone else (I’m sure after the first hundred thousand corpses they will quickly change their minds), I’ll clarify the situation about myself: several of my relatives were called up yesterday, today they will be sent somewhere, there are also risks for both me and my friends . For me, this is the first time in my life when I hate a person whom I do not even know personally. I hate all these people that surround this Fuhrer, all his advisers. He made his last mistake. I am convinced that when weapons come into people’s hands, they will find a way how and against whom to direct them. I don’t see any other way yet. I hope the translator translated it all clearly. I also hope we don’t have to talk about this again. I am against any war anywhere.

 

[Chief]

Russia was perfectly happy for Ukraine to go with the EU prior to 2014, their real sticking point was that they refused to allow a situation where EU goods could flow into Russia via Ukraine (through their open border) without any tax paid on them. It would have wrecked the Russian manufacturers, growers and producers first and the entire economy shortly after. So Russia said - 'hey, you choose: an open border with us; or the EU and a closed border with us where import duties are collected.'

There were dozens of other sticking points, but that was Russia's key and genuine concern.

Next sentence...

Russia's historically sick of Ukraine being reliant on it.

So Russie relied on Ukraine for cheap imports, but were sick of Ukraine's reliance on them.

Therefore totes OK with Russia invading Ukraine.

What's so hard for you to understand about the fact that painting a race of people as sub-human is both racist and offensive by today's standards?

Why do Russians do that to Ukraine, to the point of wiping out whole villages of civilians?

Move along, troll.

 

[spinynorman]

"Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state" is a hell of a statement.