Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[bzparkes]

Put yourself in your shoes. Odds are you'd be doing the same thing. All of the troubles come after they were effectively told half the country they thought was theirs wasn't any more and all of the conflict and displacement that followed it.

I probably wouldn't gleefully murder hapless civilians over what was written in some book 1,400 years ago, to be completely honest.

Your comments ignore that Fatah and the PLO both turned their back on terrorism and recognised Israel had a right to exist after Arafat and Rabin made peace with each other and since Rabin was killed (by someone from what would be called Israel's ruling ideology now) all they've experienced is more violence, theft and insult.

Yes, what happened to Rabin was a tragedy and one that appears orchestrated by people that had a vested interest to not have a peaceful outcome.

I'm sure I've done that plenty of times. Its an easy thing to do and we all do it but in situations as fraught as this one I think its worth us all making the effort to be a bit more careful about what we say and how we say it. I don't want to encourage Nazis or Israel's increasing resemblance to them.

Everyone does it all the time. I just found it especially weird that everyone jumped down my throat for a simple mistake.

If you feel someone is making anti Semitic remarks quote them and call it out or contact the mods.

I find the term 'anti-semitic' horrendously overused. It's entirely fine to criticise Israel(or sections of Jewish society) for abhorrent behaviour. Resorting to calling any criticism as anti-Semitic devalues what the actual action is and is merely deflection for terrible behaviour committed by people who use it as a shield to hide behind.

 

[ferball]

Well, groups from Palestinian territories have committed countless acts of terror against Israel. This is a fact and not something that's up for debate.

That's not to say Israel haven't done the same, by the way. People do seem very willing to forgive the perpetrators from the Palestinian side and offer 'context' however, whilst condemning the Israeli side for their acts.

Both acts of terror by either side are equally s**t and no act of terror against civilians can ever be justified.

Resistence fighters have always used terrorism against civilians. Its one of the few weapons they have that work. I don't see a difference between acts of terror against civilians and acts of war against them either. I do think that acts of what we define as terror are more likely to come from people who feel they have nothing to lose and no real other options tho.

States that commit acts we as a society tend to define as acts of war often have other options or had them and they didn't work. States usually have more power and access to resources.

Sure they do, I don't think anyone's trying to debate this though.

From my pov one of the reasons for justifying this wholesale slaughter of civilians is the idea that all Palestinians are terrorists. That they aren't the peaceful people we believe they are. Therefore because of this the extreme violence we are seeing is justified.

Its a form of psychological warfare designed to hinder criticism of the wholesale slaughter we're all seeing.

 

[bzparkes]

Resistence fighters have always used terrorism against civilians. Its one of the few weapons they have that work. I don't see a difference between acts of terror against civilians and acts of war against them either. I do think that acts of what we define as terror are more likely to come from people who feel they have nothing to lose and no real other options tho.

There's a massive difference between say bombing civilian infrastructure and gang-raping a woman, breaking her pelvis during the process, then decapitating her with a shovel.

That's not something a 'resistance' fighter does.

That's something a murderous, unhinged psycho does.

Especially when it's written in their book to commit such acts.

From my pov one of the reasons for justifying this wholesale slaughter of civilians is the idea that all Palestinians are terrorists. That they aren't the peaceful people we believe they are. Therefore because of this the extreme violence we are seeing is justified.

Not being 'peaceful' doesn't justify the violence inflicted upon them but being governed by a Jihadi group, they don't have much hope of a peaceful outcome unfortunately.

Its a form of psychological warfare designed to hinder criticism of the wholesale slaughter we're all seeing.

Well, thankfully it doesn't appear to be working, judging from the international reaction.

 

[ferball]

I probably wouldn't gleefully murder hapless civilians over what was written in some book 1,400 years ago, to be completely honest.

They're not murdering civilians over a book. They're murdering them because of decades of pain, trauma (and associated ptsd) and loss.

Yes, what happened to Rabin was a tragedy and one that appears orchestrated by people that had a vested interest to not have a peaceful outcome.

Yeah, unlike that tripe Barratt writes that was a genuine sliding doors moment. We could have seen thirty years of (mostly) peace by now off the back of the goodwill both Rabin and Arafat showed. And the PA in the West Bank has gone out of its way to keep its side of the bargain, to their own detriment really.

Everyone does it all the time. I just found it especially weird that everyone jumped down my throat for a simple mistake.

The context of this situation makes this stuff more important imo.

I find the term 'anti-semitic' horrendously overused. It's entirely fine to criticise Israel(or sections of Jewish society) for abhorrent behaviour. Resorting to calling any criticism as anti-Semitic devalues what the actual action is and is merely deflection for terrible behaviour committed by people who use it as a shield to hide behind.

People will use this situation as an excuse to be specificlly anti jewish. As well as anti arab and anti muslim (two different things.) I suspect alot of those people hate both groups. But I generally agree with what you're saying there.

 

[ferball]

There's a massive difference between say bombing civilian infrastructure and gang-raping a woman, breaking her pelvis during the process, then decapitating her with a shovel.

That's not something a 'resistance' fighter does.

That's something a murderous, unhinged psycho does.

Especially when it's written in their book to commit such acts.

All of those books are full of that sort of horrific s**t, not just the Koran. The same god. Seems like a bloodthirsty bastard to me.

Not being 'peaceful' doesn't justify the violence inflicted upon them but being governed by a Jihadi group, they don't have much hope of a peaceful outcome unfortunately.

Nothing justifies that level of violence on any civilian population imo.

Well, thankfully it doesn't appear to be working, judging from the international reaction.

its working on some people.

 

[owen87]

I probably wouldn't gleefully murder hapless civilians over what was written in some book 1,400 years ago, to be completely honest.

You don’t think this is a little… inaccurate perhaps?

Do you think Hamas targeted Israel because they’re Jewish, or because Israel is oppressing them?

 

[QuietB]

If you are going to throw labels around willy nilly, what's occurring is far closer to Ethnic Cleansing than it is a Genocide.

Really?

This is from the UN - and I believe Jews invented the word after WWII and helped in forming the definition - note “in whole or in part”. a, b and c is not even debatable.

 

[Kurve]

Really?

This is from the UN - and I believe Jews invented the word after WWII and helped in forming the definition - note “in whole or in part”. a, b and c is not even debatable.

View attachment 1874946

Hamas ticked all the boxes October 7.

 

[QuietB]

If we're as powerless as you say, then what is stopping Anthony Albanese from coming out and saying "we believe the US should reconsider how much they are providing in military support to Israel until such time as they can be assured that the impact on civilians will be reduced".

You can't have your cake and eat it too... If we're a pimple on the ass of global politics, as you suggest, then let's come out and put public pressure on them... That way, we wouldn't have to guess at what our position is.

Other than the fact it would be political suicide, yeah sure

Peter Dutton would self-ferment into the purest vodka in history

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I had some good friends who were in Vietnam and even in the SE Asian"emergency" (ie the wholesale slaughter of lefties in Indonesia, malaysia etc etc a situation where many of the people who post left wing views on this website would have been targeted for those views.) One of them, who was ex SAS and in Vietnam and SE Asia generally told me he really couldn't see very much difference (if any) between what he and his fellow soldiers did in those conflicts and what the Nazis did.

Maybe if the US hadn't been so reliant on the influence of former Nazis like Reinhard Gehlen they wouldn't have ended up behaving in such an appalling manner after ww2.

Yes. There are a LOT of things that should be common knowledge about the Indonesian and Malayan 'Emergencies' that just... aren't. It's almost a hidden history. Only those who care will seek the truth.

 

[schneebly111]

One of them, who was ex SAS and in Vietnam and SE Asia generally told me he really couldn't see very much difference (if any) between what he and his fellow soldiers did in those conflicts and what the Nazis did.

Maybe if the US hadn't been so reliant on the influence of former Nazis like Reinhard Gehlen they wouldn't have ended up behaving in such an appalling manner after ww2.

The last wars that basically didn’t target civilians occurred when war was fought between two sides who wore bright uniforms, lined up in fields and shot musket volleys at each other until one side ran away. At a stretch the trenches of World War One were last military vs military just with the power of post Industrial Revolution weapons.

By World War 2 we had aircraft, which could bomb cities from afar. Tanks and armoured vehicles which could move soldiers into combat faster and move around defences quicker so traditional open battlefield engagements were abandoned in favour of capturing strategic targets (cities). And then the rise of guerilla warfare which can’t be fought in open fields, and then we see the civilian casualty toll mount.

 

[PenskeFile]

This is why zionism is inherently antisemitic. To carry out ethnic cleansing in the name of an entire ethnic group is gross. Not to mention it directly correlates to an increase of antisemitism around the world and also puts Jewish Israeli's in harms way.

Nothing about what Israel are doing is sustainable.
I can't see how any of this good for Jews.
Listening to Israeli politicians is actually quite scary, the language they use, the dehumanisation, the hatred.

I know that many Jews have been killed in the conflict and it's much easier sitting on the sideline commenting without direct family affected, but I just can't imagine any other group of people getting away with this. They are just so confident nobody will interfere.
Someone earlier in the thread visualised the IDF as being tens of thousands of Avi Yemini's, that's exactly how I picture them.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Nothing about what Israel are doing is sustainable.
I can't see how any of this good for Jews.
Listening to Israeli politicians is actually quite scary, the language they use, the dehumanisation, the hatred.

I know that many Jews have been killed in the conflict and it's much easier sitting on the sideline commenting without direct family affected, but I just can't imagine any other group of people getting away with this. They are just so confident nobody will interfere.
Someone earlier in the thread visualised the IDF as being tens of thousands of Avi Yemini's, that's exactly how I picture them.

You're dead right. How can you reach people like this? How do you appeal to their sense of empathy? In rejecting basic concepts of universal human rights have they themselves gone too far and rejected their own humanity?

I think the likes of Netanyahu have.

I've said this of the far right in general and I'll say it of the exclusionary Zionists now - sometimes too far gone is too far GONE. Too far to reclaim their humanity once they've rejected it for so long. They will not share the land and they cannot be worked with or trusted.

What to do with them?

 

[QuietB]

Hamas ticked all the boxes October 7.

"They started it" is finished. You need to move on.

 

[QuietB]

Nothing about what Israel are doing is sustainable.
I can't see how any of this good for Jews.
Listening to Israeli politicians is actually quite scary, the language they use, the dehumanisation, the hatred.

I know that many Jews have been killed in the conflict and it's much easier sitting on the sideline commenting without direct family affected, but I just can't imagine any other group of people getting away with this. They are just so confident nobody will interfere.
Someone earlier in the thread visualised the IDF as being tens of thousands of Avi Yemini's, that's exactly how I picture them.

Strategically it is a complete disaster for Israel. This conflict essentially guarantees further ongoing conflict for the foreseeable future - and it is actually a huge risk to Israels long term security. Now is the time to make peace before the USA do exit the region - and one day they will.

They were how close to signing a significant treaty with the Saudi's. Then Iran interfere. Then all hell breaks loose. Acknowledging Syria and Yemen and Lebanon the Middle East was actually moving to some level of stability (relatively).

It is so obvious that they have been played. Russia will be loving this. And the result will be Trump which means Palestine is gone forever (or at least until the USA exit) - exactly what Netanyahu wants.

And that means Biden has been played.

The whole thing is just a sad mess.

But I will never comprehend how a people who suffered a genocide so willingly committed a genocide less than a century later. I simply cannot reconcile that.

 

[Kurve]

"They started it" is finished. You need to move on.

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

 

[leon123]

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

You mentioned or more accurately stated you were staying away from this thread, you changed your mind... thats ok.... you do talk rubbish, im happy to elaborate

 

[QuietB]

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

Hamas cannot threaten Israels existence.

That idea is complete nonsense.

 

[geoffjennings79]

But I will never comprehend how a people who suffered a genocide so willingly committed a genocide less than a century later. I simply cannot reconcile that.

Neither can I. Until you look at the leader of their govt and the power he has wielded over decades, and the mutually beneficial existence he and his govt have with the uber-Zionists 'settlers'.

'Never again' has become 'never again TO us, but BY us, not so much...'

 

[leon123]

Iran was actually bragging about how successful the October 7 Hamas attack has been. If I can find the clip I'll post it.

How did that go for ya curvy, so like about 90 million people were bragging, how does that work.... again rubbish

 

[Blue1980]

lol

HRW has a known bias against Israel that dates back to before 2014. Senior HRW members are even known to have collected Nazi memorabilia. And you are using it as some source of truth?

I am no supporter of how Israel has gone about this, but I'll need more than the vibe before i agree Israel is conducting a proven Genocide, and what you have provided to date as "proof' does not cut it, especially with a source like HRW.

How many need to die before you think its more than a "vibe", do you have a magic genocide number? You can't seriously think Israel are seriously trying to "get Hamas".

 

[Boston tiger]

Given you wrote this in response to a call for a multi-ethnic, secular state, what point are you making here? That a multi-ethnic, secular state will be less free?

Heading off into fantasy land over some impossible scheme for what ?
Israel is a free democratic country.
And basically the whole Middle East isn’t ….

 

[Kurve]

Hamas cannot threaten Israels existence.

That idea is complete nonsense.

Yeah, I think they probably could. Look at what they did simply by knocking out a communications tower and rushing through a hole in a fence with less than 5% of their disposable fighters. Then there's the fallout from Israel's response, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Turkey gobbing off and Iran.

It doesn't matter anyway whether you or I think the idea of an existential threat is ridiculous, if they think it's real.

 

[Boston tiger]

Same sex couples can't get married in Israel and Gaza has been under siege for decades and struggles to repair infrastructure from multiple Israeli bombing campaigns. Seriously you're a Palestinian in Gaza - would you trust standing in line to vote without being bombed?

So Hamas hasn’t held elections for safety reasons ?

 

[Kurve]

You mentioned or more accurately stated you were staying away from this thread, you changed your mind... thats ok.... you do talk rubbish, im happy to elaborate

To be fair, I had notifications.