Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[Boston tiger]

This conversation wasn't about the practicalities of it, but the benefits.


As others have established, only for Jews.


So?

So…? So you have countries with dodgy regimes that need this/ like this.

 

[Boston tiger]

Dunno.

Do Did they have the infrastructure to hold elections in Gaza?

I think if they wanted elections it could have been organised.
2016-2020 4.5 billion in foreign aid.

 

[Kurve]

How is that trolling, just engage in the debate in good faith. How is talking about Palestinian deaths just trying to get an emotive reaction? Do they not matter? Just cost of war?

Every time. Why do I need to prove my humanity over and over and over again in this thread?

This is what I posted yesterday:

There's little point in engaging in here when every argument can be shut down with 'thousands of dead babies' and which is of course unacceptable, inhumane and disgusting but which I understand there's not a thing I can do about and I don't want to engage on it. To do so for me, feels I'm doing exactly what Hamas intended.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Iraq? After Vietnam, for f*ck's sake. After US-trained death squads were raping nuns and slaughtering villagers all through Central America in the 1980's, and even before that. Pinochet of Chile. The Somozas of Nicaragua. Concurrent with Vietnam was Suharto of Indonesia, he who killed millions all US-sanctioned.

That nation has been morally bankrupt for a VERY long time. Australia has been morally bankrupt by association for a very long time too, eager as we are to follow unquestioningly in the military 'adventures' of our masters the United States and before that the British Empire.

I think this needs to change.

In the world of international relations morals don’t get you anywhere

 

[Crankyhawk]

Heading off into fantasy land over some impossible scheme for what ?
Israel is a free democratic country.
And basically the whole Middle East isn’t ….

Whose leader nobbles his courts, probably to interfere with the probes into his own corruption? That “democracy?”

 

[Jello_B]

Seems to me that Israel have been creating an existential threat to Israel.
They probably see no other choice now as to kill everyone or be vanquished. Pretty stupid. They should start digging up….

 

[Chief]

Israel is a free democratic country.

Kind of looks like it isn't:

 

[owen87]

Hamas ticked all the boxes October 7.

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

Come on mate, you're way better than this.

Here we go again, this is why I checked out last time.

Being challenged on some pretty one-sided views of the situation?

You might be anti-war, but gee whiz you're parroting some pretty hardcore pro-Zionist talking points along the way.

 

[Saint]

 

[Carn The Berries]

Other than the fact it would be political suicide, yeah sure

Peter Dutton would self-ferment into the purest vodka in history

Again, that's fine, but let's own it and say that, for political reasons at least, we are happy to support our ally who is tipping billions of dollars into the mass killing of civilians.

I GET the political issues, but we're still trying to say that we're doing all we can, which is absolute horses**t.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

I daresay the Israeli retaliation poses more of an existential threat to Palestine than anything that happened on or before October 7th.

 

[Kurve]

Being challenged on some pretty one-sided views of the situation?

You might be anti-war, but gee whiz you're parroting some pretty hardcore pro-Zionist talking points along the way.

Owen you know I respect your point of view, except this one's a bit off.

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

 

[Kurve]

I daresay the Israeli retaliation poses more of an existential threat to Palestine than anything that happened on or before October 7th.

I agree. Unless the conflict goes wider and erupts in to a regional war.

 

[Saint]

Owen you know I respect your point of view, except this one's a bit off.

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

It's obviously not true. They got a lot further than they thought they would, went to the first settlements took hostages and fled back to Gaza. As soon as the helicopters and other reinforcements arrived, they turned and fled.

They weren't trying to wipe out a race of people and they didn't have the weaponry to blow up infrastructure, they were there to kill people and take hostages. Commit an act of terror to let Israel know that they were still resisting the occupation. It was a racist-driven terror attack, but they lacked the ability to commit genocide (doesn't mean I think they wouldn't if they could).

But it appears to me that Israel have the means and are actually trying to do it.

Committing an actual act of genocide to prevent an impossible genocide is not a defensible moral position.

 

[BFew]

I daresay the Israeli retaliation poses more of an existential threat to Palestine than anything that happened on or before October 7th.

More specifically, a threat to all those living and working in (mostly Palestinians) the Israeli controlled occupied Palestinian territories.
(including the IDF and humanitarian/charity workers).

 

[Kurve]

It's obviously not true. They got a lot further than they thought they would, went to the first settlements took hostages and fled back to Gaza. As soon as the helicopters and other reinforcements arrived, they turned and fled.

They weren't trying to wipe out a race of people and they didn't have the weaponry to blow up infrastructure, they were there to kill people and take hostages. Commit an act of terror to let Israel know that they were still resisting the occupation. It was a racist-driven terror attack, but they lacked the ability to commit genocide (doesn't mean I think they wouldn't if they could).

But it appears to me that Israel have the means and are actually trying to do it.

Committing an actual act of genocide to prevent an impossible genocide is not a defensible moral position.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

 

[geoffjennings79]

Owen you know I respect your point of view, except this one's a bit off.

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

Hamas don't have the capability to eradicate Israel. Israel are doing a pretty good job of destroying Gaza, not just Hamas, in retaliation.

There's the barbarity of the October 7 attack, which no one denies was horrific.
But it was never going to go close to the definition of a genocide - a sustained action to destroy an entire nation.
But Israeli uber-zionists aren't interested in definitions. They are intent in destroying Gaza, and not averse to targeting the West Bank either.

Does the 7 October attack, which I completely condemn by the way, justify the response of killing Gazans indiscriminately in what is a text book genocide if we want to be clinical, and ignore the inhumanity and morally-bereft actions of the IDF, knowingly killing 1,000s of non-combatants as well as their own civilians, Christian bystanders, a foreign diplomat and journalists?

 

[BFew]

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

So the USA committed genocide at the end of WW2 in Japan, with the dropping of two A-bombs?

 

[Chief]

Continued in Part II:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

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