Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Kwality]

Yeah we've all seen this. Seen the photo that makes the size difference look bigger than it is.

Thats the best you've got.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Be in the times ?

It would if consistently measured over several results. Then you'd have to figure if a bio-born female could have that same kind of dominance. I think, scientifically, it's needed to let a broad swathe of trans competitors in - if they end up all proven to have advantage beyond scientific doubt I believe it would would settle the matter. Who could argue with the science then?

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Not to the exclusion of other people.

Are you seriously saying you'd be totally OK with a group of women at a local social game on the weekend where nothing is at stake telling the one overweight woman, or woman with a slight disability she cant play because she's too fat or slow and will cost them the game?

I certainly don't think they should be excluded.

But if I reflect on playing sport as a young kid, take football for example, I remember there were certain teammates I would not pass the ball to, because, well I knew if I did, the ball would straight away come flying back over my head because they were totally incapable of competing.

I didn't have anything personally against these kids, it's a natural competitive instinct.

 

[Kwality]

It would if consistently measured over several results. Then you'd have to figure if a bio-born female could have that same kind of dominance. I think, scientifically, it's needed to let a broad swathe of trans competitors in - if they end up all proven to have advantage beyond scientific doubt I believe it would would settle the matter. Who could argue with the science then?

See here:

A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

The times and rankings of Penn's Lia Thomas are clear and undeniable. The transgender swimmer has an obvious edge over biological women.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

See here:

A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

The times and rankings of Penn's Lia Thomas are clear and undeniable. The transgender swimmer has an obvious edge over biological women.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Yes, it seems like some concrete data is coming in. If Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage then the relevant sporting body/bodies need to act on that.

 

[Malifice]

I certainly don't think they should be excluded.

But if I reflect on playing sport as a young kid, take football for example, I remember there were certain teammates I would not pass the ball to, because, well I knew if I did, the ball would straight away come flying back over my head because they were totally incapable of competing.

I didn't have anything personally against these kids, it's a natural competitive instinct.

When you were bowling to your and your neighbors' kids in backyard cricket, did your 'natural competitive instinct' also kick in with you trying to bounce them out at full pelt?

Or were there perhaps more important principles at play other than 'win at all costs' and you instead slowed down your bowling and gave them balls they could hit?

 

[Better Loosen Up]

When you were bowling to your and your neighbors' kids in backyard cricket, did your 'natural competitive instinct' also kick in with you trying to bounce them out at full pelt?

Or were there perhaps more important principles at play other than 'win at all costs' and you instead slowed down your bowling and gave them balls they could hit?

We used to play for hours at a time as kids in the same street. All of different ages. I don't remember anyone holding back. We all had a great time! Pretty reasonable standard too for the youngish age we were.

 

[Cap]

Fragile masculinity on display



Imagine living in a country where politicians want to launch investigations into companies that do perfectly legal things they don't like.

 

[The Tilt]

When you were bowling to your and your neighbors' kids in backyard cricket, did your 'natural competitive instinct' also kick in with you trying to bounce them out at full pelt?

Or were there perhaps more important principles at play other than 'win at all costs' and you instead slowed down your bowling and gave them balls they could hit?

Yeah, I think most people are fine with a trans-inclusive approach to backyard cricket. The issue is more in elite sport where winning is obviously a primary value.

 

[Malifice]

Yeah, I think most people are fine with a trans-inclusive approach to backyard cricket. The issue is more in elite sport where winning is obviously a primary value.

And at the Elite level there are all sorts of restrictions put in place to ensure competitive fairness.

 

[Malifice]

We used to play for hours at a time as kids in the same street. All of different ages. I don't remember anyone holding back. We all had a great time! Pretty reasonable standard too for the youngish age we were.

Cool, well at your next BBQ remind me to bounce out the 6-year-olds, and not deliberately hit them catches when its my turn to bat.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Cool, well at your next BBQ remind me to bounce out the 6-year-olds, and not deliberately hit them catches when its my turn to bat.

I'm talking about a 10 year old bowling to a 6 year old for example, not an adult! Big difference!

And sorry to disappoint you but it's extremely unlikely you would find yourself at my next bbq.

 

[Malifice]

I'm talking about a 10 year old bowling to a 6 year old for example, not an adult! Big difference!

Oh so you agree that there are other things at stake in friendly sporting games beyond just 'winning at all costs'?

Inclusiveness, participation, sportsmanship, fun, having a go etc (the reasons you dont play at your best vs your own kids for example)?

Out of curiosity, if you were having a friendly BBQ and everyone decided to have a game of footy (men vs women), and a transwoman was there, would you ask her to line up with the men or the women?

And would you expect the mens side to go flat out with hip and shoulders vs the womens side and look to 'win at all costs'?

Or are there perhaps more important things at stake here than 'winning'?

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Malifice why do you keep making this false argument that onr size fits all for non-professional sport.

it's been pointed out before, but there's a very big difference between amateur and social sport (focusing on adult sports, since that wad the original framework for the discussion).

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Oh so you agree that there are other things at stake in friendly sporting games beyond just 'winning at all costs'?

Inclusiveness, participation, sportsmanship, fun, having a go etc (the reasons you dont play at your best vs your own kids for example)?

Out of curiosity, if you were having a friendly BBQ and everyone decided to have a game of footy (men vs women), and a transwoman was there, would you ask her to line up with the men or the women?

And would you expect the mens side to go flat out with hip and shoulders vs the womens side and look to 'win at all costs'?

Or are there perhaps more important things at stake here than 'winning'?

None of that has anything to do with what i've posted about

 

[Malifice]

None of that has anything to do with what i've posted about

Yes it does.

You're arguing that trans-women should be excluded from casual and non professional womens sports, so I asked you if you would exclude a trans-woman from a womans side in a friendly game of football (and instead be asked to play with the men).

You're also arguing that 'competitiveness' and 'winning' is more important than 'inclusiveness, participation, mateship, having a go' at those levels, and I'm saying at the community level, it's much more about participation and the overall benefits of team sport, over excluding people based on some perceived physical advantage.

Im saying that at lower levels, unless there is some question around safety of cis-women athletes competing with or against the odd trans-women athletes, giving that woman a place to play sport among her own gender (and not excluding her from an amateur or community level game) is more important than winning or losing.

As you advance up the ranks into pro-level, obviously the rules change and it becomes more about winning and competition equality than it does at the lower levels.

 

[Malifice]

Malifice why do you keep making this false argument that onr size fits all for non-professional sport.

it's been pointed out before, but there's a very big difference between amateur and social sport (focusing on adult sports, since that wad the original framework for the discussion).

I'm not making that argument. Im making the opposite argument and have been for some time. Go back and read my posts.

I agree that at elite level there should be very (very) strict rules to protect competitive fairness and to exclude trans-women from womens competitions if there is any biological advantage gained on account of them being born biologically male.

Swimming and AFLW and many other sports have such rules in place.

Im saying at nonprofessional community level, inclusion and participation is more important than winning at all costs.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

I'm not making that argument. Im making the opposite argument and have been for some time. Go back and read my posts.

I agree that at elite level there should be very (very) strict rules to protect competitive fairness and to exclude trans-women from womens competitions if there is any biological advantage gained on account of them being born biologically male.

Swimming and AFLW and many other sports have such rules in place.

Im saying at nonprofessional community level, inclusion and participation is more important than winning at all costs.

Omg you're doing it again. There's not just the Elite level and then community sport focused on inclusiveness.

There are layers of amateur sports which aren't elite, but people take sport extremely seriously. What part of this are you failing to understand?

 

[Malifice]

Omg you're doing it again. There's not just the Elite level and then community sport focused on inclusiveness.

There are layers of amateur sports which aren't elite, but people take sport extremely seriously. What part of this are you failing to understand?

Do you really think we need a multi-tiered system in place, in which as you progress to a more organized level, the requirements are progressively and incrementally tougher?

Surely the amateur/ pro line of demarcation (like what we see in many sports these days) is good enough for literally 99 percent of the few cases in where this is ever an issue.

Some complex multi-tiered system would be a prick to administer, set guidelines for, and serve very little actual benefit while also serving to put trans athletes under a complex set of rules and requirements simply to lace up the boots for a weekend game of cricket with their mates or whatever.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Do you really think we need a multi-tiered system in place, in which as you progress to a more organized level, the requirements are progressively and incrementally tougher?

Surely the amateur/ pro line of demarcation (like what we see in many sports these days) is good enough for literally 99 percent of the few cases in where this is ever an issue.

Some complex multi-tiered system would be a prick to administer, set guidelines for, and serve very little actual benefit while also serving to put trans athletes under a complex set of rules and requirements simply to lace up the boots for a weekend game of cricket with their mates or whatever.

There's only three tiers:
A) professional
B) Amateur
C) Social

The first gets paid to play. The 2nd doesn't get paid but still takes the sport seriously (this is the overwhelming majority of amateur clubs you see in city competitions), the third just does it for casual fun.

That's really all there is to it.

 

[Malifice]

With all the controversy over Hannah Mouncey, here are her stats:

Hannah Mouncey - Player Statistics

19 goals in 12 games.

Do they reflect some kind of marked advantage she's getting there to the extent that she should be prohibited from playing for the Darebin Falcons on the weekend?

 

[Malifice]

There's only three tiers:
A) professional
B) Amateur
C) Social

The first gets paid to play. The 2nd doesn't get paid but still takes the sport seriously (this is the overwhelming majority of amateur clubs you see in city competitions), the third just does it for casual fun.

That's really all there is to it.

And as I've mentioned multiple times, for B and C it should be a question of gender identity only, trumped only by questions of safety.

At A, the rules change.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

And as I've mentioned multiple times, for B and C it should be a question of gender identity only, trumped only by questions of safety.

At A, the rules change.

And again, you have no right to dictate that.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

And again, you have no right to dictate that.

This is a discussion forum, not a working group that sets policy. Everything here is opinion. Mal's. Yours. Mine. Big Papa Ted's. Royale with Cheese's. Everybody. No dictation here, just opinion.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

This is a discussion forum, not a working group that sets policy. Everything here is opinion. Mal's. Yours. Mine. Big Papa Ted's. Royale with Cheese's. Everybody. No dictation here, just opinion.

Fair.

What I meant is that no one has the right to tell people what their primary reason for playing sport is, and what they should prioritise their team/clubs focus on.

If amateurs want to play for sheep stations and focus on sport being their competitive outlet with an emphasis on fairness, that's their right.