Review Round 1, 2024 - Fremantle vs. Brisbane Lions

[beardancer]

Fwiiw , just to me , this feels a bit different to any time we've been smacked in the last 5 years.

I've never been worried before about us coming back or our 'era' coming to an end. Always optimistic about what we had.

Also hearing a lot that it's only 2 games ,we've always come back ,late start to the year etc and all of that's true.

What has me a little disconcerted this time is Kiddy going down was a massive blow , players who have been here 4-6 years are now at the stage where if they don't start producing what we envisaged they never will , Oscar's deficiencies are pretty much exposing our M/F and he has been pivotal and we've gotten away with it in the past.

But particularly I've seen a couple of teams take a leaf out of the Collingwood playbook and extrapolate it with younger, faster players and produce some scarily good footy. Something difficult to combat with our gameplan and personnel.

So it's in our court . We still have some great players and to date shown great resilience in staying in the race every year.

The Collingwood game will tell us more. We'll be rested up on our home deck against an opposition that isn't going that hot itself. I'm expecting a Lions team that will be flat out doing everything to not cough up a run of goals in this match.

I don't think it matters who we play, if you watch/play football you can see our problems no matter who we play. We have a strange balance of players at our club. We have the flakey brilliants....ie Joe, Charlie, Rayner, Rat, clug etc. We also have the grunts.....the guys that carry the brilliants. Dunks, Neale(also brilliant), Andrews, Lester etc.

Then we've got the not up to its.....Oscar, Starcevich, Lohmann etc.


I say trade the shit out of this team. Bailly....gorn. Rayner.....Gorn. Joe.....well you know what I'd do!!!!! Zorks retired, Oscar....trade. Lohmann ....delist. Starcevich.....10 games in the VFL, or delist.


Fagan......hmmmmm!!!

 

[briztoon]

I don't think it matters who we play, if you watch/play football you can see our problems no matter who we play. We have a strange balance of players at our club. We have the flakey brilliants....ie Joe, Charlie, Rayner, Rat, clug etc. We also have the grunts.....the guys that carry the brilliants. Dunks, Neale(also brilliant), Andrews, Lester etc.

Then we've got the not up to its.....Oscar, Starcevich, Lohmann etc.


I say trade the s**t out of this team. Bailly....gorn. Rayner.....Gorn. Joe.....well you know what I'd do!!!!! Zorks retired, Oscar....trade. Lohmann ....delist. Starcevich.....10 games in the VFL, or delist.


Fagan......hmmmmm!!!

Starcevich had one of his best games in a long time on the weekend. Back to his quality 2021 form.

 

[martinson]

Starcevich had one of his best games in a long time on the weekend. Back to his quality 2021 form.

I was thinking that from early on . He was starting to out position and take high marks against his opponent , something we haven't seen for quite a while.

 

[On the quiet]

3KZ have you viewed the replay, especially the 3rd Q? I think Lester allowed or was involved in three of Freo's goals in the 3rd Q.
Stays on the ground and does not compete in the air for Freo's first goal in the 3rd Q.
The room Amiss was afforded and ran into an open goal out the back of Lester.
Out-marked 1 v 1 against Treacy under the post in that 3rd Q.
Lester was forced into a KPD role, something he is not suited to and arguably hasn't played too often since Riewoldt kicked 6 on him (actually 5, as one was not his fault).

IMO There are a few players out of form, Lester is not one, but he is not a KPD or that critical to our structure, he is a handy role player doing his job, on the 4th, 5th opposition forward, but IF we lose a few more games, than playing a 31/32 year old, and some others at the expense of the kids would be detrimental, and I would then have to be critical of Fages. Hopefully we are not in that position, and as with other slow starts, I am still optimistic, but the caveat is the loss of Kiddy. I think we have to give Zorks the position.

I posted earlier in the year Cam is a third tall forward (no matter how fit he looks in preseason), with short stints in the midfield, two games in and have not seen anything to suggest otherwise.

I said about a month ago Neale, Berry and Payne had interrupted preseasons, and with the preseason shorter this year, they may take a couple of games to find form.
After an ACL, some supporters may be expecting too much from Tom, in the first few games, although in Fages presser he hinted he would be picked against Collingwood.

 

[Berrygood]

I've just read all the game day thread and have caught up here as well. I didn't watch the game to protect the dodgy ticker. Looks like the right decision after reading all the angst on here. (Once again thank you all for the very kind thoughts. Home now, feeling much better. Gotta give up the durries, after 42yrs won't be easy but necessary).

I think we wasted the preseason, as short and limiting as it was. We wasted time experimenting again, Rayner down back last year, Gardiner 4wd, Berry back this year. Wasted time trying to improve the failed tactic of protecting red time, knowing it doesn't work. I feel that knowing it was a short preseason we should have spent the majority of training on fitness and taking the game on for 4qtrs. That was the improvement needed, not trying to be too smart for our own good. The saying that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Well, I think we're officially nuts.

Having underdone players (Neale, Berry, Dev, Payne, McKenna) hasn't helped, getting injuries new (Kiddy and now Gardiner) and recurring (Neale and McKenna) compounds everything. We're just not right physically, we're not right tactically, we're not right mentally. And that's on everyone's shoulders, players and coaches.

How do we turn this around, and can it be done quickly? I don't know and I don't think so. It's going to take time to get players fit and in form, and then we need that fitness to change tactically, then results are needed to change mentally.

This squad got us to a GF. I can't believe they've become hacks in the space of a preseason. The talent IS there, we saw that last season. This season we've started games so well in the first qtr. We've been quick and accurate, hard at the ball. Second qtrs we've missed goals that would have put the game to rest. Those misses invited the opposition into the game, we then try to be cute, slow it down etc, probably get a bit selfish, lose momentum and continue to be cute thinking that will get momentum back. It won't, hard work and attitude will.

It's going to be hard to make wholesale changes. The ressies haven't started so there's no real form lines to evaluate. I'm even hesitant to bring Doedee straight in v Pies, God I'd hate to bring him in untried to see him injured as well. I would be playing a lot of the firsts in the ressies first game over the bye. Big O, Berry, Dev, Payne if fit, Charlie, Doedee to get a run, the list could go on. They don't need to rest, they need to get hard and match fit. Definitely time for some tough love tho.

Still early enough in the season to take steps fwd. I do think that even if we lose a string of games now but finish the season on a strong run, with players back and fit, willing to take the game on tactically, even if we finish in the bottom 4 of the finals, I think we can feature in the GF.

 

[Berrygood]

Starcevich had one of his best games in a long time on the weekend. Back to his quality 2021 form.

I like hearing that.

 

[On the quiet]

I've just read all the game day thread and have caught up here as well. I didn't watch the game to protect the dodgy ticker. Looks like the right decision after reading all the angst on here. (Once again thank you all for the very kind thoughts. Home now, feeling much better. Gotta give up the durries, after 42yrs won't be easy but necessary).

I think we wasted the preseason, as short and limiting as it was. We wasted time experimenting again, Rayner down back last year, Gardiner 4wd, Berry back this year. Wasted time trying to improve the failed tactic of protecting red time, knowing it doesn't work. I feel that knowing it was a short preseason we should have spent the majority of training on fitness and taking the game on for 4qtrs. That was the improvement needed, not trying to be too smart for our own good. The saying that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Well, I think we're officially nuts.

Having underdone players (Neale, Berry, Dev, Payne, McKenna) hasn't helped, getting injuries new (Kiddy and now Gardiner) and recurring (Neale and McKenna) compounds everything. We're just not right physically, we're not right tactically, we're not right mentally. And that's on everyone's shoulders, players and coaches.

How do we turn this around, and can it be done quickly? I don't know and I don't think so. It's going to take time to get players fit and in form, and then we need that fitness to change tactically, then results are needed to change mentally.

This squad got us to a GF. I can't believe they've become hacks in the space of a preseason. The talent IS there, we saw that last season. This season we've started games so well in the first qtr. We've been quick and accurate, hard at the ball. Second qtrs we've missed goals that would have put the game to rest. Those misses invited the opposition into the game, we then try to be cute, slow it down etc, probably get a bit selfish, lose momentum and continue to be cute thinking that will get momentum back. It won't, hard work and attitude will.

It's going to be hard to make wholesale changes. The ressies haven't started so there's no real form lines to evaluate. I'm even hesitant to bring Doedee straight in v Pies, God I'd hate to bring him in untried to see him injured as well. I would be playing a lot of the firsts in the ressies first game over the bye. Big O, Berry, Dev, Payne if fit, Charlie, Doedee to get a run, the list could go on. They don't need to rest, they need to get hard and match fit. Definitely time for some tough love tho.

Still early enough in the season to take steps fwd. I do think that even if we lose a string of games now but finish the season on a strong run, with players back and fit, willing to take the game on tactically, even if we finish in the bottom 4 of the finals, I think we can feature in the GF.

some good rationale, and yes it is a long season so hopefully we can build into it, even 0-3 (if it happens, not impossible for top 4) I think the rationale with Dizzy going forward was to cover a perceived weakness (although Cam should play 3rd tall), and the early 2023 season form of Payne (before injury) and the acquisition of Doedee likely meant Dizzy was not getting a permanent back spot in 2024. I think some flexibility is good and the Swans coach mentioned this in his presser last Friday.

Food is going to taste so much better for you when you give away those durries

 

[Berrygood]

Just read Fages saying " we'll give the boys a rest, probably get back into it Thursday", should be back into it today, stop molly coddling these men. They've gotta earn a rest. It's making them soft, it's rewarding poor performance. Ffs Fages stop being their friend, start being their coach. And have a good look at yourself in the mirror too. You've gotta be better as well, gotta take it on.

 

[Sproj]

Fwiiw , just to me , this feels a bit different to any time we've been smacked in the last 5 years.

I've never been worried before about us coming back or our 'era' coming to an end. Always optimistic about what we had.

Also hearing a lot that it's only 2 games ,we've always come back ,late start to the year etc and all of that's true.

What has me a little disconcerted this time is Kiddy going down was a massive blow , players who have been here 4-6 years are now at the stage where if they don't start producing what we envisaged they never will , Oscar's deficiencies are pretty much exposing our M/F and he has been pivotal and we've gotten away with it in the past.

But particularly I've seen a couple of teams take a leaf out of the Collingwood playbook and extrapolate it with younger, faster players and produce some scarily good footy. Something difficult to combat with our gameplan and personnel.

So it's in our court . We still have some great players and to date shown great resilience in staying in the race every year.

The Collingwood game will tell us more. We'll be rested up on our home deck against an opposition that isn't going that hot itself. I'm expecting a Lions team that will be flat out doing everything to not cough up a run of goals in this match.

Agree with all of this and now to me is the time something that’s been missing, whatever it is gets found or before you know it the season is gone and rebuild sets in.

Nothing up to now suggests Fagan will make drastic changes and certainly not to the protected players. Yet we have started so badly, there is no excuse to hide behind now.

The game is passing our style by but we can still use that style as a chance up if we make the right changes to at least keep us up with the new game plan - speed everywhere.

We have the players on the list but never give them a shot and look, maybe for good reason but do we have to lose by giving a Smith / Sharp / Ryan / Tunstill / Reville 5 games to show what they’ve got?

They don’t all have to be at the same time either, you can stagger it and who knows, what emerges might be the new benchmark.

But the glaringly stagnated players need to be dropped to earn their spot back and if they do, then they will no longer be passengers.

 

[Berrygood]

some good rationale, and yes it is a long season so hopefully we can build into it, even 0-3 (if it happens, not impossible for top 4) I think the rationale with Dizzy going forward was to cover a perceived weakness (although Cam should play 3rd tall), and the early 2023 season form of Payne (before injury) and the acquisition of Doedee likely meant Dizzy was not getting a permanent back spot in 2024. I think some flexibility is good and the Swans coach mentioned this in his presser last Friday.

Food is going to taste so much better for you when you give away those durries

I always felt a fit Dizzy could and would compete for Paynes spot with Doedee's arrival. Both are injury and form prone, and i felt that both would be used over the season in the 2nd tall defender role. Operating as a unit.

That's an upside to giving the smokes away for sure. Apart from the obvious health benefit as well. Be good for the bank balance too. But mate I just love it. Love the flavour, love feeling that smoke curl down the throat, love the long slow exhale, love that the nicotine can relax or stimulate upon need. Tobacco is even my fav fragrance note. That morning cigarette with a nice strong cappuccino, heaven. It's going to be tough.

I did try Champix years ago to give up, I did cut back to 3 a day because of it, but gradually fell back. That Champix did give me the most vivid, realistic dreams/nightmares I've ever had. That was wild. Some of the dreams were even serialised, like a TV show, a different episode each night. Being chased thru different dimensions by vampire bikies, or a quest to find a cure to a spell that turned people into animals that represented their sins. Gluttony as pigs, sloth obviously sloths, adulterers dogs, etc. My soul flying thru the air as my body would move thru the earth when travelling distances. Combining upon arrival at the destination. Big hot Amazon women that would suck the bones and meat out a body leaving a skin bag lying on the floor. Wild.

 

[bungalow_bill]

'24 could be our version of the Cats '06. Not all premierships are a linear progression. In '06 the Cats drafted Selwood. We will draft L. Ashcroft

 

[peasantbruh69]

Big hot Amazon women that would suck the bones and meat out a body leaving a skin bag lying on the floor

Go on...

 

[briztoon]

I always felt a fit Dizzy could and would compete for Paynes spot with Doedee's arrival. Both are injury and form prone, and i felt that both would be used over the season in the 2nd tall defender role. Operating as a unit.

That's an upside to giving the smokes away for sure. Apart from the obvious health benefit as well. Be good for the bank balance too. But mate I just love it. Love the flavour, love feeling that smoke curl down the throat, love the long slow exhale, love that the nicotine can relax or stimulate upon need. Tobacco is even my fav fragrance note. That morning cigarette with a nice strong cappuccino, heaven. It's going to be tough.

I did try Champix years ago to give up, I did cut back to 3 a day because of it, but gradually fell back. That Champix did give me the most vivid, realistic dreams/nightmares I've ever had. That was wild. Some of the dreams were even serialised, like a TV show, a different episode each night. Being chased thru different dimensions by vampire bikies, or a quest to find a cure to a spell that turned people into animals that represented their sins. Gluttony as pigs, sloth obviously sloths, adulterers dogs, etc. My soul flying thru the air as my body would move thru the earth when travelling distances. Combining upon arrival at the destination. Big hot Amazon women that would suck the bones and meat out a body leaving a skin bag lying on the floor. Wild.

I had to give up drinking to give up smoking.

No long story here.

Both went, feel better for it.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I don't think it matters who we play, if you watch/play football you can see our problems no matter who we play. We have a strange balance of players at our club. We have the flakey brilliants....ie Joe, Charlie, Rayner, Rat, clug etc. We also have the grunts.....the guys that carry the brilliants. Dunks, Neale(also brilliant), Andrews, Lester etc.

Then we've got the not up to its.....Oscar, Starcevich, Lohmann etc.


I say trade the s**t out of this team. Bailly....gorn. Rayner.....Gorn. Joe.....well you know what I'd do!!!!! Zorks retired, Oscar....trade. Lohmann ....delist. Starcevich.....10 games in the VFL, or delist.


Fagan......hmmmmm!!!

Well at least you’re not overreacting…

 

[M Malice]

I had to give up drinking to give up smoking.

No long story here.

Both went, feel better for it.

Agree, my brother and I stole some of dad's cigarettes when I was around 12 years old and snuck off to a nearby culvert drain and indulged. Unbeknown to us dad followed us there and caught us mid smoke, took us home made us smoke a full cigarette properly with full drawbacks, disgusting, he then proceeded to give us a hell of a flogging, neither my brother or I have ever smoked again.

Gave up drinking alcohol in 1997, had 1 stubby in the next 15 years, now I have a very occasional drink, a handful of times in the last decade, last one was a Stout on GF eve in Melbourne last year at San Telmo.

 

[braddsey]

I wonder how much can be put into our reduced pre-season.
We had a month less time between seasons compared to 2022/23.
Colllingwood are in the same boat.

It’s expected that the GF teams have a reduced pre-season, but the AFL opening-round concept compressed this further.

GWS would be the contrasting opinion - but they didn’t go through competing in a GF.

I hope i’m right and our season proper starts 28 March.

 

[Berrygood]

Go on...

Very much X rated, sexually explicit with violence and gore, as ratings often describe. Some of our younger members could find it disturbing, lol.

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

Just read Fages saying " we'll give the boys a rest, probably get back into it Thursday", should be back into it today, stop molly coddling these men. They've gotta earn a rest. It's making them soft, it's rewarding poor performance. Ffs Fages stop being their friend, start being their coach. And have a good look at yourself in the mirror too. You've gotta be better as well, gotta take it on.

A break after only 2 games?

 

[twhowler]

Agree with all of this and now to me is the time something that’s been missing, whatever it is gets found or before you know it the season is gone and rebuild sets in.

Nothing up to now suggests Fagan will make drastic changes and certainly not to the protected players. Yet we have started so badly, there is no excuse to hide behind now.

The game is passing our style by but we can still use that style as a chance up if we make the right changes to at least keep us up with the new game plan - speed everywhere.

We have the players on the list but never give them a shot and look, maybe for good reason but do we have to lose by giving a Smith / Sharp / Ryan / Tunstill / Reville 5 games to show what they’ve got?

They don’t all have to be at the same time either, you can stagger it and who knows, what emerges might be the new benchmark.

But the glaringly stagnated players need to be dropped to earn their spot back and if they do, then they will no longer be passengers.

To over simplify it we just seem a bit stale to me.


Doedee will be a nice addition.

Crying out for ashcroft to be back.

But we need some changes before then to get wins.

Zorko back is so logical- gives us something different for the oppo to react to because just trying to replace kiddy with like for like is impossible. Fagan really missed a trick there.

I also think it has to be time to say zero more minutes for JL and zorko on the ball. They are not the players they were and others need to grow in those roles.

 

[martinson]

To over simplify it we just seem a bit stale to me.


Doedee will be a nice addition.

Crying out for ashcroft to be back.

But we need some changes before then to get wins.

Zorko back is so logical- gives us something different for the oppo to react to because just trying to replace kiddy with like for like is impossible. Fagan really missed a trick there.

I also think it has to be time to say zero more minutes for JL and zorko on the ball. They are not the players they were and others need to grow in those roles.

We're showing all the symptoms of staleness.

Good players not putting in their usual effort.

Confused about the gameplan or not deeply committed to it when the opposition gets a run on.

It happens often enough to teams that have had a lot of success. As yet we're not really one of them history will show.

So we really need to turn it around.

 

[braddsey]

Just read Fages saying " we'll give the boys a rest, probably get back into it Thursday", should be back into it today, stop molly coddling these men. They've gotta earn a rest. It's making them soft, it's rewarding poor performance. Ffs Fages stop being their friend, start being their coach. And have a good look at yourself in the mirror too. You've gotta be better as well, gotta take it on.

They’re already looking tired. Add to that 2 cross-country flights and a flogging. A couple of days to freshen up won’t hurt… giving them a flogging might. They can then come back and focus on the issues, work on some things with a fresh mind over the weekend and into next week.

The coaching team can spend the days the players have off doing some proper analysis (or both the players and themselves), and come up with a plan for how to fix the issues.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Half serious question - would we at all consider getting Rich back in the mid season draft? Is that even possible? He’s the closest thing to Kiddy we could get although a level or two below. Has been training with Noosa so should still be in okay shape. Might need a ‘training block’ though.

 

[brisbanelions]

Agree with all of this and now to me is the time something that’s been missing, whatever it is gets found or before you know it the season is gone and rebuild sets in.

Nothing up to now suggests Fagan will make drastic changes and certainly not to the protected players. Yet we have started so badly, there is no excuse to hide behind now.

The game is passing our style by but we can still use that style as a chance up if we make the right changes to at least keep us up with the new game plan - speed everywhere.

We have the players on the list but never give them a shot and look, maybe for good reason but do we have to lose by giving a Smith / Sharp / Ryan / Tunstill / Reville 5 games to show what they’ve got?

They don’t all have to be at the same time either, you can stagger it and who knows, what emerges might be the new benchmark.

But the glaringly stagnated players need to be dropped to earn their spot back and if they do, then they will no longer be passengers.

I agree with you and McIvor , giving a chance to some fresh new faces might be exactly what we need right now. CREATE COMPETITION FOR SPOTS ,Inject youth and enthusiasm into a team that is off. The youngster's might just have the desired hunger to rise to the occasion then players who think they have earned their spot regardless of their performances. By putting pressure on the senior guys for spots , it may be enough of a catalyst for the senior guys to re-discover their MOJO.

I am , all for seeing what the youngsters have and seeing if there are any hidden gems like Wilmot amongst them.

 

[Berrygood]

They’re already looking tired. Add to that 2 cross-country flights and a flogging. A couple of days to freshen up won’t hurt… giving them a flogging might. They can then come back and focus on the issues, work on some things with a fresh mind over the weekend and into next week.

The coaching team can spend the days the players have off doing some proper analysis (or both the players and themselves), and come up with a plan for how to fix the issues.

Surely they can't be tired after 2 games, and why protect them after a flogging, they can't be that tender in the head. They talk about accountability, it's time to take some and take steps to improve. They should be cranky, they should be wanting to dig in. I understand the flights can be a bit taxing. I've done that trip many times, 5 or 6 hrs, it's not that bad. Sure I haven't done it after a game of footy but I'm not an elite sportsman either. And if the coaching staff need 3 days to recognise problems and formulate plans after 2 poor performances, we need a better coaching staff. They don't have to be flogged but get them in today (tuesday) run vision, rehab. Take advantage of the extra days. Starting on Thursday after 3 days off when we play the following Thursday is a week (7 days), minus the lighter day before the game, recovery after the vfl game or the weekend off for others, it's down to just 3 or 4 days of solid work. Start earlier, do some character building hard work for 5 or 6 days, then taper down before the game.

I see your point, I can understand the thinking but to me it just seems like more of the same softly softly gentle approach with the players. For Gods sake they are footballers, hard men (supposedly), I'm sure they can take it. If we had 2 good wins the time off to rest as a reward would be warranted. We haven't and it's time for tough love and hard work. More benificial in the long run and a wake up call in the short term.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Bit of housekeeping from the game day thread.

Answerth's skills haven't improved, I see.

Answerth had 15 disposals at 100% disposal efficiency according to those stats you like to quote all the time 3KZ.