The Nuclear debate

[SaintsSeptember]

Mate, you are just rambling

Good at the old English lit were you?

 

[QuietB]

No I didn't.

There you go again with the straw man. Claiming people are saying things they aren't because you can't be bothered to stop and think and understand context.

What I did do was link to what I found a long an interesting twitter thread and referenced parts of it. A link that I know you didn't even read because you went off on a tangent that was in complete contrast to what the author was saying.

This is what he said about transition his character limited strong of posts btw.






Now I couldn't give a flying feck whether you agree or disagree with what I post or the links I post as information. You're free to make up your own mind. This is a discussion forum and alternative views, when properly argued and backed with facts, should be welcomed.

But what really ticks me off is lazy one sided attacking posts that not only mis-state the context of the posts they're responding to but deliberately misquote them to suit a binary political narrative.

/ rant.

“Part of the reason solar is cheap & plentiful is because China is using the cheapest & most plentiful source of firm power to make them - coal.We need to remember this.”

This is frankly irrelevant bullshit.

China are using the main energy source they have to make a cheaper and cleaner energy source, and when they are finished they won’t need or use coal any more.

The fact they are using coal initially to do it will be about as relevant as Thomas Edison working under gas lamps or candles to develop the electric light bulb - no one cares.

 

[Festerz]

“Part of the reason solar is cheap & plentiful is because China is using the cheapest & most plentiful source of firm power to make them - coal.We need to remember this.”

This is frankly irrelevant bullshit.

China are using the main energy source they have to make a cheaper and cleaner energy source, and when they are finished they won’t need or use coal any more.

Again - that point is exactly what is covered in the twitter feed and in the author's medium story. that has been re-posted by Australia's most active renewable activist, Simon Holmes à Court, who puts his money where his mouth is to encourage open discussion.

What is 'irrelevant bullshit', frankly, is people on social media platforms like this one not bothering to stop and consider posts and links in full and considering context BEFORE they post.

But to do that requires the realisation that there are never just two sides to any discussion and a level of self awareness to realise that others, even those you imagine to be on the other side of this imaginary two sided divide, may have an understanding of matters that exceed your own.

And that opening your ears to listen; your eyes to read the facts behind the points they are raising; and engaging your brain to do some rational thinking about what it means to your own perceptions of the truth can only enhance your understanding of the full discussion/debate, even if you end up disagreeing with their conclusions.

The more you know, the less you understand...that sort of thing.

I've covered this in my previous posts. And it's something that applies to all sides of politics.

But I'm guessing someone who writes a 3 sentence emotive response to a complex set of posts, where one of those 3 sentences is 'This is frankly irrelevant bullshit' is maybe not someone who is big on the context/self reflection thing.

 

[peetoo]

Again - that point is exactly what is covered in the twitter feed and in the author's medium story. that has been re-posted by Australia's most active renewable activist, Simon Holmes à Court, who puts his money where his mouth is to encourage open discussion.

What is 'irrelevant bullshit', frankly, is people on social media platforms like this one not bothering to stop and consider posts and links in full and considering context BEFORE they post.

But to do that requires the realisation that there are never just two sides to any discussion and a level of self awareness to realise that others, even those you imagine to be on the other side of this imaginary two sided divide, may have an understanding of matters that exceed your own.

And that opening your ears to listen; your eyes to read the facts behind the points they are raising; and engaging your brain to do some rational thinking about what it means to your own perceptions of the truth can only enhance your understanding of the full discussion/debate, even if you end up disagreeing with their conclusions.

The more you know, the less you understand...that sort of thing.

I've covered this in my previous posts. And it's something that applies to all sides of politics.

Indeed the arguments against are getting thinner and thinner

 

[Festerz]

Indeed the arguments against are getting thinner and thinner

I'm not opposed to opposing arguments. Far from it. Bring on the alternative perspectives and let some proper discussion take place. And by all means bring a bit of passion to it as well. But above all bring some links to facts, evidence and context to build understanding.

But what I see in this thread is a couple of top contributors in this thread trying to 'own' the discussion with ad hominem attacks on anyone who offers up additional/alternative perspectives. No attempt to reflect on what is being said and why.

And always using cheap binary politics as the point of leverage. Without any sense of understanding or reflection on the fact that binary (left v right/good v bad/us v them) politicking is exactly what is stopping informed facts based discussion on Australia's energy future from progressing.

 

[nut]

Again - that point is exactly what is covered in the twitter feed and in the author's medium story. that has been re-posted by Australia's most active renewable activist, Simon Holmes à Court, who puts his money where his mouth is to encourage open discussion.

What is 'irrelevant bullshit', frankly, is people on social media platforms like this one not bothering to stop and consider posts and links in full and considering context BEFORE they post.

But to do that requires the realisation that there are never just two sides to any discussion and a level of self awareness to realise that others, even those you imagine to be on the other side of this imaginary two sided divide, may have an understanding of matters that exceed your own.

And that opening your ears to listen; your eyes to read the facts behind the points they are raising; and engaging your brain to do some rational thinking about what it means to your own perceptions of the truth can only enhance your understanding of the full discussion/debate, even if you end up disagreeing with their conclusions.

The more you know, the less you understand...that sort of thing.

I've covered this in my previous posts. And it's something that applies to all sides of politics.

Again - that point is exactly what is covered in the twitter feed and in the author's medium story. that has been re-posted by Australia's most active renewable activist, Simon Holmes à Court, who puts his money where his mouth is to encourage open discussion.

What is 'irrelevant bullshit', frankly, is people on social media platforms like this one not bothering to stop and consider posts and links in full and considering context BEFORE they post.

But to do that requires the realisation that there are never just two sides to any discussion and a level of self awareness to realise that others, even those you imagine to be on the other side of this imaginary two sided divide, may have an understanding of matters that exceed your own.

And that opening your ears to listen; your eyes to read the facts behind the points they are raising; and engaging your brain to do some rational thinking about what it means to your own perceptions of the truth can only enhance your understanding of the full discussion/debate, even if you end up disagreeing with their conclusions.

The more you know, the less you understand...that sort of thing.

I've covered this in my previous posts. And it's something that applies to all sides of politics.

But I'm guessing someone who writes a 3 sentence emotive response to a complex set of posts, where one of those 3 sentences is 'This is frankly irrelevant bullshit' is maybe not someone who is big on the context/self reflection thing.

Oh give it up!!! You’ve been called out for posting irrelevant BS…
WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION? Is it to stop China from building 85% of the world’s renewables???
The % of China’s grid that is renewables is increasing more and more everyday…. Now pushing 30-40% carbon free.
What is your point?

 

[nut]

Yep. That's what irks me.

What irks me is that people point to China as if they are just happy pumping out coal power with no plan….
They reached 500GW of solar in 2023… and will double that by 2026, if not sooner.

 

[Festerz]

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?

42.

A glib question deserves a gib answer. (maybe I should have put that in caps for effect )

What irks me is that people point to China as if they are just happy pumping out coal power with no plan….

Who said this? Again with the straw man.

What is your point?

I've made my point multiple times. I'm guessing the problem lies in reception rather than transmission.

You've posted 150 times in this thread. More than double the next contributor. Attacking anyone who dares offer up alternative perspectives for discussion.

At what point will you realise that this is a discussion forum and not just a broadcasting platform for your own take on things? That trying to shout down others is exactly what is stopping informed facts based discussion on Australia's energy future from progressing.

 

[nut]

On track to add 250GW of solar in 2024…

Solar leads as China adds 210GW of new renewable capacity so far in 2024

China has installed 210GW worth of renewable energy through the first three quarters of 2024, with renewables now taking a 35 per cent share of total grid output.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[nut]

I've made my point multiple times. I'm guessing the problem lies in reception rather than transmission

Well be nice and add to the discussion by spelling it out 1 more time.

 

[nut]

At what point will you realise that this is a discussion forum and not just a broadcasting platform for your own take on things? That trying to shout down others is exactly what is stopping informed facts based discussion on Australia's energy future from progressing.

Sorry im a Strawman.
The quickest way China is reducing its reliance on coal is by producing as much wind and solar it can, as fast as it can… it realises the planet can’t wait for it to build nuclear.

 

[QuietB]

Again - that point is exactly what is covered in the twitter feed and in the author's medium story. that has been re-posted by Australia's most active renewable activist, Simon Holmes à Court, who puts his money where his mouth is to encourage open discussion.

What is 'irrelevant bullshit', frankly, is people on social media platforms like this one not bothering to stop and consider posts and links in full and considering context BEFORE they post.

But to do that requires the realisation that there are never just two sides to any discussion and a level of self awareness to realise that others, even those you imagine to be on the other side of this imaginary two sided divide, may have an understanding of matters that exceed your own.

And that opening your ears to listen; your eyes to read the facts behind the points they are raising; and engaging your brain to do some rational thinking about what it means to your own perceptions of the truth can only enhance your understanding of the full discussion/debate, even if you end up disagreeing with their conclusions.

The more you know, the less you understand...that sort of thing.

I've covered this in my previous posts. And it's something that applies to all sides of politics.

But I'm guessing someone who writes a 3 sentence emotive response to a complex set of posts, where one of those 3 sentences is 'This is frankly irrelevant bullshit' is maybe not someone who is big on the context/self reflection thing.

It is not complex at all.

Current manufacturing of solar panels uses (some) coal fired electricity and all sorts of other energy sources and that needs to be included in the embodied energy calculations of manufacturing those solar panels.

Future manufacturing of solar panels will hopefully use renewable energy for everything and as a result the embodied energy of those panels will be much lower.

Both sets of panels will produce many times more energy than they used to build.

As more and more solar (or other renewable energy) is used in manufacturing the embodied energy of the solar panels - including mining, transport, manufacturing, everything, will get lower and lower.

The end.

We don’t need to be thankful for coal. Coal is not special. It is just the thing we currently use the most.

 

[QuietB]

Sorry im a Strawman.
The quickest way China is reducing its reliance on coal is by producing as much wind and solar it can, as fast as it can… it realises the planet can’t wait for it to build nuclear.

China also realises it does not have its own energy security and the USA will do everything it can to screw them over.

 

[nut]

And while we all gloat about the huge uptake of renewables in parts of the western world and here in Australia, the cost of meeting that demand is a huge increase in greenhouse emissions in the coal fired plants of China that is sending the world backwards in meeting CO2 targets aimed at slowing down global warming.

It's something green politicians and those smugly plugging their new EVs into their home battery system powered by the solar panel array covering their roofs should think about.

If this is your actual point then you my friend are the strawman.

What should these smugly people actually think about? That is my question to you?
What is your point?

 

[nut]

China also realises it does not have its own energy security and the USA will do everything it can to screw them over.

Yep if there is one country that knows how to shut themselves off from the rest of the world and be self sufficient… it’s the Chinese.

 

[nut]

If you want to stare hypocrisy in the face you only have to look at how the west is now responding to the “threat” of Chinas renewable revolution… TAXES!!! In the form of tariffs. People in the US already pay 3 times as much for rooftop solar than we do in Australia… that’ll go up more… and now they will also protect their legacy Auto Makers by slowing down the imports of batteries and EVs with 100% tariffs. … Europe too. The fossil fuel companies love it and It’s disgraceful.
Right now the enemy of climate change is those ignoring the tariffs and then pointing the finger at big bad china for using coal to make Solar panels.

 

[nut]

Chinas CO2 emissions are set to fall in 2024…..so all this extra coal to make renewables is actually working.
They’ve pretty much also reached peak oil consumption, again from the energy supplied partly by coal.
But let’s rely on Ed Conway and Thunder said energy???

Analysis: China’s emissions set to fall in 2024 after record growth in clean energy - Carbon Brief

China’s CO2 emissions are set to fall in 2024 and could be facing structural decline, due to record growth in clean energy.

www.carbonbrief.org

 

[nut]

Let’s look at other things people don’t like talking about.
China is burning our coal.
It it wasn’t for china burning coal and making solar panels, Australia’s emissions wouldn’t be falling.
EVs will have the biggest impact on emissions provided they are affordable… and they will be thanks to china, but yes they are building them with coal in their energy mix.
Battery storage needs to make financial sense … China is making them cheaper and cheaper. Again being built partly with coal.

No one seems to give china the credit they deserve.

 

[kranky al]

Maybe list the exceptions. There’s many many more.

I think you are describing 10-20 years ago?

Their infrastucture work volume is probably the equal of the rest of the planet. They can’t help but catch up and leapfrog us

That and the fact that they educate their best and brightest where we educate the kids of our wealthy.

 

[nut]

Another thing Strawmen dont like talking about is the fact that half the worlds plug in cars are in china.

The latest Tenders for large scale batteries in china was also around $70USD per kWh….

“The price reportedly includes a comprehensive range of services beyond the delivery of storage equipment, including system design, installation guidance, commissioning, 20-year maintenance, and integrated safety features.”

That’s game over for nuclear.

"Mind blowing:" Battery cell prices plunge in China's biggest energy storage auction

Latest battery storage auction prices in China stun analysts with another big price fall that could fast-track green energy switch and uptake of EVs.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Let’s look at other things people don’t like talking about.
China is burning our coal.
It it wasn’t for china burning coal and making solar panels, Australia’s emissions wouldn’t be falling.
EVs will have the biggest impact on emissions provided they are affordable… and they will be thanks to china, but yes they are building them with coal in their energy mix.
Battery storage needs to make financial sense … China is making them cheaper and cheaper. Again being built partly with coal.

No one seems to give china the credit they deserve.

Why do you think EV's are the most important ?

Focusing on EV's will also increase demand in the electricity grid which IS the biggest CO2 producing sector.
By pushing the increased demand onto the grid, you are ensuring it will take longer to retire the Coal/gas.

It would be foolish to introduce long haul trucks , for example, when some of the engines in such vehicles are more efficient than a simple gas turbine ( as opposed to a combined cycle gas turbine ).
They produce more CO2 per KWH than gas, but less than coal, especially when transmission is considered.

At the same time , people buying non plug in hybrids are still helping the environment , burning as little as 1/3 of the fuel they would be burning if they bought a conventional internal combustion engine.

 

[nut]

Why do you think EV's are the most important ?

Because one of the major goals is to transfer solar power to storage to be used at night.
An EV is basically a large battery on wheels.
EVs are having basically zero affect on the grid… and with V2G they’ll have a massive positive affect on the grid.
And that’s before we even talk about actual emissions from ICE cars.

 

[peetoo]

The focus on consumer EVs not commercial uses is a big missed opportunity.

Half the greenhouse and pollution comes from commercial. And that sector has a wider array, of financing options


Emissions from sparsely used ICE cars aren’t much more than similarly used EVs in the deployment phase. They spend almost all their lives parked in driveways

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Because one of the major goals is to transfer solar power to storage to be used at night.
An EV is basically a large battery on wheels.
EVs are having basically zero affect on the grid… and with V2G they’ll have a massive positive affect on the grid.
And that’s before we even talk about actual emissions from ICE cars.

NEWSFLASH.
Just because you intend to go and scavenge cheap electricity to charge your car during peak solar times, so that you can take it home and top up your battery later, does not mean that most people will use their EV's in this manner.

You have no evidence to support your repeated claims .

I'd suggest most people will get home from work and plug their car in. They will get up in the morning and drive it to work.
I also have no evidence, my crystal ball is broken, but its no less correct than your assertion.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The focus on consumer EVs not commercial uses is a big missed opportunity.

Half the greenhouse and pollution comes from commercial. And that sector has a wider array, of financing options


Emissions from sparsely used ICE cars aren’t much more than similarly used EVs in the deployment phase. They spend almost all their lives parked in driveways

The whole EV thing is driven by people who want to help, and are pretty much restricted to what they can do.