Autopsy Some promising signs but Hawks too good

[rustycrate]

It’s true what you say but there is often great perception from the many.

Stephens was noted early as being simply unable to stick tackles. This could have been forgiven if his kicking was more reliable. But he never showed enough there to justify his limitations. Sheldrick bull in a china shop gets him the ball but gives away frees and often leads to just booted forwards - the same thing that Parker was derided for - and he gives away frees because of his out of control tackling and attack on the ball carrier.

I haven’t seen anything from sheldrick performances to make me think he can change from a panicked player to one with composure in the 2s but he does get it more.

Players are watched pretty closely in fan forums and their stereotypes are often based on things many have seen

Happened right in front of me. Lloyd and rampe I think went to him. No one went to melican either when he refused the chest mark - he headed back the goal square hitting himself and there were two swans there he patted him on the back

I remember Roberts first game. I think it was against Richmond. He was a deer in the headlights. He had no idea of the pace of the game. Didn't think much of him.
Ditto Warner. In his first game I thought he was soft. Did not hold much hope for him.
Now people are deriding Sheldrick.

Based upon my previous observations of the above two players, I have high hopes for Sheldrick.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

It’s true what you say but there is often great perception from the many.

Stephens was noted early as being simply unable to stick tackles. This could have been forgiven if his kicking was more reliable. But he never showed enough there to justify his limitations. Sheldrick bull in a china shop gets him the ball but gives away frees and often leads to just booted forwards - the same thing that Parker was derided for - and he gives away frees because of his out of control tackling and attack on the ball carrier.

I haven’t seen anything from sheldrick performances to make me think he can change from a panicked player to one with composure in the 2s but he does get it more.

Players are watched pretty closely in fan forums and their stereotypes are often based on things many have seen

Happened right in front of me. Lloyd and rampe I think went to him. No one went to melican either when he refused the chest mark - he headed back the goal square hitting himself and there were two swans there he patted him on the back

I think it’s fair to criticise Sheldrick’s disposal - he played like a bloke too worried about making a mistake & hence just took the “low risk” option of whacking it long and high. He has the skill, but not yet the confidence that comes with knowing you’re secure in the side.

But I don’t think it’s fair to criticise his tackling. If anything, one of the high frees against him in defensive 50 was unlucky & could equally have been a free for. We blast our players for not sticking tackles - Sheldrick goes in hard & I think attack on the ball carrier is fundamentally a good thing. Certainly, others are being pilloried on here for not going hard enough.

I just hope he isn’t scapegoated for Friday night. I felt like Horse often shattered young players confidence by dumping them after 1 game (or subbing them in the 2nd quarter, as he did with poor Corey). Confidence is a wonderful thing & coaches have an important role in fostering it.

 

[Deccas]

Florent is mentally weak.

He put together a year of focused high end footy through his old man carking it. That took a lot. Losing parent while you come into adulthood is hard, but moving to a new city and working in really high pressure job while doing it is presumably harder.

I think you can make criticisms of someone's football without pretending you've got a psychologists assessment of them.

All you do is watch him on tv once a week and from a few hundred metres away every other month or two if you're lucky.

 

[melbournehammer]

I remember Roberts first game. I think it was against Richmond. He was a deer in the headlights. He had no idea of the pace of the game. Didn't think much of him.
Ditto Warner. In his first game I thought he was soft. Did not hold much hope for him.
Now people are deriding Sheldrick.

Based upon my previous observations of the above two players, I have high hopes for Sheldrick.

Parker was derided for years.

Sheldrick has been injured endlessly and it’s cruelled his development. He’s got something to offer but he gives frees away like Grundy and his disposal currently is of the kick it and hope variety. You’re right he might come good but I’ve watched him in reserves and he plays there as he does in the ones. That’s not to say I wouldn’t mind some of our players to go with the kick it in hope style a little more often rather than be tackled and done for htb (Robert’s in particular but he’s not on his own).

In the end some players come into the league and you can see straight away that they have time and they use the ball - he’s not that sort of player and he remains in both the 1s and 2s a get the ball forward player. These may be his instructions and therefore he’s meeting coach’s orders but it may also be his footy dna.

 

[clivus]

The hayward performance was poo brown...if you're going to dish it then back it up through actions.

He never contributes enough. A filler piece. A goal here and there. He’s never in our best 5 in any game. I don’t rate him or Logan in our attack.

 

[rustycrate]

He never contributes enough. A filler piece. A goal here and there. He’s never in our best 5 in any game. I don’t rate him or Logan in our attack.

You have to look harder at what he does on field. Not the stats only.

 

[clivus]

You have to look harder at what he does on field. Not the stats only.

He’s ok with ball pressure when opposition has it but he goes missing in attack a lot of times.
We just don’t have a team strong enough to win the gf. Won most of our early games last season because the opposition hadn’t really hit their straps.

 

[rustycrate]

He’s ok with ball pressure when opposition has it but he goes missing in attack a lot of times.
We just don’t have a team strong enough to win the gf. Won most of our early games last season because the opposition hadn’t really hit their straps.

Your first two sentences don't naturally connect together.
You speak about Hayward and then in the next two it is about the team winning the GF.

What is the connection?

 

[Big Blood]

The hayward performance was poo brown...if you're going to dish it then back it up through actions.

He put the clamps on Sicily in the second half. That was worth a few goals. Sicily was everywhere in first half

• Hawks are good, sadly showing last year wasn't a fluke. Barring catastrophic injury or loss of form they should be top 4. Still not sure what hokball is - something to do with hok tuah right?
  
• Who else got GF vibes from that game? Obvoiusly nowhere near as devastating but they smacked us in the areas that Lions did, getting on the outside and marking, especially in Q2. We really are a terrible marking side. I think we were 18th last year for contested marks. Can hardly take a mark in our 50.
  
• Nice fightback inf Q3 and if we'd nailed a couple of those forward entries in first 5-10 minutes of the last quarter, and Oflo didn't do what he did, we might have pinched it. But they did outplay us for most of the game and won every single stat, so must admit the result was fair reflection.
  
• As the coach said, our forwards just didn't get the siupply. Got gbeaten in t he centre, beaten in the stoppages. Not going to win many games with 40 forward entries,
  
• Being positive: maybe this year we'll play our best footy in the second half of the year and not in May.
  
• That Chad guy is a weapon. Blakey was great, Amartey really good,defensively and offensively. Hannily had a tiny cameo but didn't look overawed. McCartin didn't really get many opportunities.
  
• We're getting a bit of an injury list. Last year we were pretty much injury-free. It matters doesn't it?

 

[bedford]

He put the clamps on Sicily in the second half. That was worth a few goals. Sicily was everywhere in first half

• Hawks are good, sadly showing last year wasn't a fluke. Barring catastrophic injury or loss of form they should be top 4. Still not sure what hokball is - something to do with hok tuah right?
  
• Who else got GF vibes from that game? Obvoiusly nowhere near as devastating but they smacked us in the areas that Lions did, getting on the outside and marking, especially in Q2. We really are a terrible marking side. I think we were 18th last year for contested marks. Can hardly take a mark in our 50.
  
• Nice fightback inf Q3 and if we'd nailed a couple of those forward entries in first 5-10 minutes of the last quarter, and Oflo didn't do what he did, we might have pinched it. But they did outplay us for most of the game and won every single stat, so must admit the result was fair reflection.
  
• As the coach said, our forwards just didn't get the siupply. Got gbeaten in t he centre, beaten in the stoppages. Not going to win many games with 40 forward entries,
  
• Being positive: maybe this year we'll play our best footy in the second half of the year and not in May.
  
• That Chad guy is a weapon. Blakey was great, Amartey really good,defensively and offensively. Hannily had a tiny cameo but didn't look overawed. McCartin didn't really get many opportunities.
  
• We're getting a bit of an injury list. Last year we were pretty much injury-free. It matters doesn't it?

And the last Q !

 

[caesar88]

I think you're reading a bit much into that, and not giving Sicily or Papley enough credit.

Obviously Papley knows his opponent is good at stepping into and around pressure when it is coming to him at speed, and is trying to coral him to avoid that while cutting off a right foot kick. Papley even points to the player it will likely go to as he cuts out the other option, but Warner, is jogging along at half speed following Papley to the same side, not actually doing anything at all, instead of seeing where the ball will go and covering that next option.

Just an alt take on that snippet fwiw.


That said the club culture on physicality really does need to change. I really feel they are lacking in this aspect, and it comes from the top down.

Unsurprising that in that play you managed to find fault in what Warner was doing.

Could he have done more to impact there? Yes, he could've. But I also think Warner's within his right in that situation to expect that Papley takes care of it. You can see him watching and almost waiting for Papley to do something, just as I was watching it at home on my couch, then when Warner realises Sicily's basically gonna get a disposal out unimpeded, Warner snaps into action. Too late, sure. But it was largely on Papley.

 

[caesar88]

• Wanted leadership from players like Papley and Heeney…both failed
• Rowbottom, imo should be our only captain.

I love Rowy and am not about to hang him for one average game, but I'm not sure how, based on last night, you got the impression that he should be captain and Heeney should not.

Heeney appeared a lot more willing to put the team on his shoulders than Rowy, who looked uncharacteristically timid and disengaged at times.

 

[bedford]

I love Rowy and am not about to hang him for one average game, but I'm not sure how, based on last night, you got the impression that he should be captain and Heeney should not.

Heeney appeared a lot more willing to put the team on his shoulders than Rowy, who looked uncharacteristically timid and disengaged at times.

Even Lloyd was off . We had so many down , but still could've won it only for a F up to take any momentum away

 

[caesar88]

I’m absolutely of the view that we have chance this year until we fix a clearances differential of 14 or to put it another way we won 40% of clearances and they 60, and some of theirs were bursts straight out the front and most of ours were scrambled sideways to a winger to hack it forwards.

I've said this before but my issue with our clearances is that so many of them go backwards. Heeney was the worst culprit at this last night, but it's been an issue with them for years. A Swans mid wins it from the ruck contest, and runs backwards, dishing it off out the back of the stoppage. The issue with this is that we're conceding territory to gain territory, and when the kick comes in from the clearance, it's coming from near the back of the centre square, rather than the front, so it's a shallow entry that is to no one's advantage.

It's frustrating, and why I think there is a tactical issue there, because we're not that great at winning it in there, but when we do win it, it's like no one is in the position they're supposed to be in for an effective, damaging clearance.

 

[caesar88]

Even Lloyd was off . We had so many down , but still could've won it only for a F up to take any momentum away

What was the momentum? Florent turns it over with, what, 8 or 9 minutes to go? Meaning we'd spent over half the quarter pecking away at their lead for no real reward. No goals kicked in the final term before Florent's clanger. We had several repeat entries that we simply failed to capitalise on. That was our turn. Hawthorn were inevitably going to have their turn and they were better at capitalising on it when they got it.

Florent did not lose us the game IMO, he just put the nail in the coffin of a team that had been slowly dying from about the point the rain came.

But I agree, it was pleasing that we hung in there and at least didn't make it easy for Hawthorn, who I think are the real deal (unfortunately.) Plenty of upside, but wish I could be more confident that we'll see it in the next few weeks.

 

[kickthething]

Not sure what you wanted from Heeney, but he led both teams in tackles,clearances and contested possessions.
And of midfielders only Will Day had more possessions.

Sure he didn't hit the scoreboard etc but he played more as a pure midfield (only spending ~20% in the fwd half).

Definitely wasn't his best game, but I certainly wouldn't mark him down on 'leadership'.

Whilst he did, and I get that, but to my eye it was done without a leadership ship feel, I am not sure it’s tangible and I can’t articulate well, but it wasn’t a come with type of thing……… from my view in the cheap seats of course..l

 

[kickthething]

I love Rowy and am not about to hang him for one average game, but I'm not sure how, based on last night, you got the impression that he should be captain and Heeney should not.

Heeney appeared a lot more willing to put the team on his shoulders than Rowy, who looked uncharacteristically timid and disengaged at times.

I feel Rowbottom has more visible leadership qualities than Heeney.

 

[caesar88]

I feel Rowbottom has more visible leadership qualities than Heeney.

With all due respect, I can't say I see that at all. I've never understood the 'Rowbottom the leader' talk, and I say this as a huge fan of his. He just seems like a ripper bloke and a very good footballer content to just play his role and then call it a day. This is not a criticism by the way, but surely a captain has to actively want to put himself out there to inspire and lift his teammates?

 

[kickthething]

With all due respect, I can't say I see that at all. I've never understood the 'Rowbottom the leader' talk, and I say this as a huge fan of his. He just seems like a ripper bloke and a very good footballer content to just play his role and then call it a day. This is not a criticism by the way, but surely a captain has to actively want to put himself out there to inspire and lift his teammates?

The last sentence I think sums him up. Rowbottom has much more of the come on rather than go on, he has the more grunt style imo that is about getting it done…I think Heeney leads in a different way,, Rowbottom is more the lead by example we need .

 

[caesar88]

The last sentence I think sums him up. Rowbottom has much more of the come on rather than go on, he has the more grunt style imo that is about getting it done…I think Heeney leads in a different way,, Rowbottom is more the lead by example we need .

To each their own I guess. I just thought it was a strange observation based on last night's game, in which Heeney did a lot of the dirty work and Rowbottom was just about the least physical I've ever seen him.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I love Rowy and am not about to hang him for one average game, but I'm not sure how, based on last night, you got the impression that he should be captain and Heeney should not.

Heeney appeared a lot more willing to put the team on his shoulders than Rowy, who looked uncharacteristically timid and disengaged at times.

Yeah I agree. I wanted to write in my post about the leadership that they should have given it to Rowbottom but not Heeney, but Rowbottom’s performance couldn’t let me write it.

I still think Rowbottom is our best option, but damn I just wish someone demanded leadership responsibly the same way Chad demands responsibility to own the moment.

Making Mills captain last year with no formal leadership group was disastrous call. It is very hard for someone to demand leadership responsibility when the roll has been given out to someone in rehab.

 

[wolftone57]

It’s not Florent’s skill execution more so the decision making. How on earth did he think that kick was the kick to make in this conditions. Landing the ball 30m out straight in front . Brain dead

One incident in a match where he was pretty good. Everyone has brain fades. Generally he makes that kick every day of the week in the wet or not. He shanked it

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[wolftone57]

Forgive my old school parlance but methinks, like last season, we are too soft.

Can't lay a tackle and can't win a contested mark.

When put under pressure by the opposition we are deer in the spotlight.

Need to toughen up.

My lordy wordy those tackles are soft.

It was the experienced players who kicked out of defence in panic too. Rampe was a huge offender.

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[wolftone57]

Hannily and Ladhams would have done more. I thought Cox was going to trust his squad but he immediately played two underdone players.

Papley is not underdone. He is injured. Should be rested until his ankle is right.

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[wolftone57]

Nah I can see the merit in it but I think they should just leave him in that backline role. He looked awesome in that role and spent the whole pre-season training there, it would be unfair to him to change his role again.

I reckon they should just give players like Sheldrick, Jordon and Cleary time there.

Jordon especially was really good last night. If he continues to play to that standard and Rowbottom gets back to his best and we our ruck isn't a liability for most of the game, that alone will go a long way. And that's before we even throw Mills (hopefully) into the mix.

Grundy has never been great against the real monsters and Meek is a monster

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