Autopsy Rd 2 vs Hawks - Blues fight but lose due to lack of class and pace ... again

[Coops93]

It comes down to list management. Again, elite players have wanted to come to our club in the last 6 months, Trac and Houston but we 'stuck to our guns' and went with the current list.

Houston last weekend: 27 disposals, 10 intercepts, 5 inside 50s. BOG, let me say that again BOG...

Sometimes you have to pull the trigger and try and win a flag...

We chose to get younger and draft Jagga over Petracca & Houston.

Was it the right plan? Well, with Jagga injured it's hard to say. Imagine the position we'd be in if we traded 2x firsts for Houston and he did his knee in pre-season.

It's not a win now move necessarily, but we are sneakily old as a side and don't exactly have a lot of exciting youth coming through. Yes Trac & Houston help for 2-3 years but were we really just one of those 2 away from a flag? With the rest of the list, I don't think so. They help, but they aren't taking us from 8th to 1st.

 

[LFTWNG11]

Not me

It hit home for me last night that we aren't good enough. Effort for 4 quarters was great. Can't question it

Issue is game plan/structure and bottom end talent. We just aren't good enough to compete with the top teams and that really saddens me. We are 5-10 years way from competeing for a flag and that's if we get it right

Mate I’m with you. I was more referencing where the team is at and Voss comments after the loss.

We need to spend the next couple of years building a new nucleus of the team.

 

[Coops93]

Issue is game plan/structure and bottom end talent. We just aren't good enough to compete with the top teams and that really saddens me.

David King saying "there's about half a dozen guys that you really don't have to mark, because you don't mind if they get the ball as they aren't going to hurt you" definitely resonated. Who, in our side, gets the ball and makes you feel safe? Conversely, who gets the ball and opposition fans have to just hope this kick won't hurt them?

Also, I think he was being generous; there's more than half a dozen in that category.

 

[kingkingston]

Ollie Hollands at half back Was pretty good. He shut down Dylan Moore

 

[Beyond Blue]

We should have traded Zac Williams. I don't care for what but he's on 800k this year and next year. I would have given up a second round pick for any takers.
What a disaster he's been.

Unfortunately he’s untradeable unless you do a Bowes type deal attaching a draft pick to him or we do a Brody Grundy arrangement to pay most of his salary to play for another club. Either option doesn’t really help us. I am resigned to the fact we are stuck with him. I think the best we can hope for is he kicks 20-25 goals as a small forward over the next couple years and then we either pay him minimum salary or move him once the contract ends. But I agree he (and McGovern) has been a disastrous big money recruit. Certainly not the entire reason this rebuild has failed but not insignificant given the amount of cap space (and therefore cap inflexibility) he has taken up.

 

[StaggerLee]

A lot of people criticise our forwards, particularly our smalls BUT I just wonder how good they would be if ball was delievered better?

Issue for me at the moment is we kick it in the same every time and the opposition are ready for it. We don't give them a chance. I reckon any small forward would struggle in our set up

I have said it for three years now. We don't get easy goals. Everything is an effort

The problem is that our forwards don't work hard enough to create space or get out on their own.

As bad as the bombing constatly of the ball is, it makes it hard when the players with the balll have no clear option to kick it to.

There is nowhere near enough one on one or uncontested marks in our forwad line

The smalls shoud be leading up hard at the ball carrier and then pushing back even harder to the contest if the ball goes over thier head.

 

[T2B_]

WTF was Charlie doing at CHB last night? You take the best fwd in the comp on his day, even undercooked as he was and move him to CHB. Tell me an opposition coach who wouldn't rub his hands in glee at the sight of that.

1. If Charlie isn't fit (he wasn't). Don't play him.
2. If you ignore 1, play him in his best position. He's still drawing their best defender, if not 2 of them. Use him as a f***king decoy if you have to create space for Kemp or whoever else.

It's not quite Fev on Gehrig type stuff, but gee its getting close...

 

[bringdoullback]

Much improved from last week and good enough to better most teams. Best game for a long time. Hawks more impressive in this win than last year's circus.

Fix the forward entries and kick goals from set shots and we are back. Our reliance on a fit Harry and Charlie between obvious.

Do the same next week and clean up the forward entries and we are a chance.

 

[JustaBattler]

So sad to see Walsh not the running player he was and Docherty done.
No surprises to see ( again) the fact that all of Motlop/Cottrell/Fogarty and Williams are just below average mids pretending to be forwards and failing.
Frustrating to see Charlie so below par in fitness and Harry absent
Resigned to the fact that Carlton at best is a scrape into finals and cross fingers for an honourable exit team - the very definition of middling.
Disgusted with having to watch the McGovern/Hayes and Young spud it up at every contest one way or another
Optimistic about the fact that anything can happen as long as the team keeps trying to improve.

 

[Juice030103]

Truly don’t feel that far off. Need the good kickers back, Harry and the real Charlie


Just need to find some form. Could be 2023 2.0 where we start poor end strong

 

[goreds]

We chose to get younger and draft Jagga over Petracca & Houston.

Was it the right plan? Well, with Jagga injured it's hard to say. Imagine the position we'd be in if we traded 2x firsts for Houston and he did his knee in pre-season.

It's not a win now move necessarily, but we are sneakily old as a side and don't exactly have a lot of exciting youth coming through. Yes Trac & Houston help for 2-3 years but were we really just one of those 2 away from a flag? With the rest of the list, I don't think so. They help, but they aren't taking us from 8th to 1st.

We are going from 8th to 13th right now...

Jagga will be serviceable but not a generational player, especially now...

Our list is at an age that we had to go for a flag, we've missed it, so we need to take some risks and move players on, get some draft picks and get some quality in...

 

[simioni11]

love to hear from Vossy talk about this bombing it inside 50 game plan and how he thinks its an effective strategy?

 

[Beyond Blue]

I don’t get criticism of Hollands last night

Had job on Moore and kept him quiet. Great job. Did what he was told

Agreed. I thought Ollie was terrific last night. He is a genuine footballer. As is Campo. Haynes played a very good game also. Motlop much better than last week but 1.3 hurt us. We took away the way the Hawks wanted to play but we could not execute or made mistakes that cost us goals. Sadly some of our leaders failed us last night. Walsh went at 50% disposals efficiency yet again. Charlie was invisible. SOS was gallant but dropped a sitter then kicked a point instead of having a set shot directly in front. Doc dropped a sitter just before 3 quarter time that would have been a set shot for goal. Weitering and TDK tried to mark instead of spoiling inside D50 which cost us a goal. Cripps tried a difficult snap instead of giving the handball in board to a player in a better spot. You can’t blame a lot of that on the coach.

 

[Juice030103]

Jagga will be serviceable but not a generational player, especially now...

Can promise you he won’t be just serviceable. Enough substance now to show acl are career Enders anymore. Petracca Ashcroft Bailey smith off the bat i could keep going

Idk about generational but he’s an all Aus quality player and will be a great addition

 

[CoachB]

My question to Voss is - What on earth have you been working on all summer because for 4 years now, there has been NO system to kick into the forward line. I'm a dumbass but why cant you and the coaching panel see that this needed addressing?

And how many Carlton guys were in the Hawks coaches box???

The fundamentals, the skill, the system, the team first mentality, foot speed, and the structure was first class and boy do I hate Hawthorn but the quality of their coaching is undeniable.

 

[Moon]

Did l hear Voss once say there was no time to work on skills?

That is a huge problem right there ... unless Players are motivated enough to improve their skills in their own time.
I don't think they have the right attitude to work hard at it like Players in other teams.

Voss ... not big on skills training
Bolton not big on tackling pressure ... left it up to the individual.

I don't get why Coaches can't see the skills and tackling pressure of Top teams and think - Yeah we need to be that good.
Pressure may have been good last night ... but I'm talking about consistently every game, not when they feel like it, like after an embarrassing loss to motivate them.

 

[Soapy V]

The problem is that our forwards don't work hard enough to create space or get out on their own.

Sorry but this is not right. I'm at every Vic game and it's been the same for 2-3 years now. Happened last night

We go inside 50 long to Charlie or Kemp or Jack and there are others in space waving their arms and calling for the ball only to be ignored every time

 

[Soapy V]

That is a huge problem right there ... unless Players are motivated enough to improve their skills in their own time.
I don't think they have the right attitude to work hard at it like Players in other teams.

Voss ... not big on skills training
Bolton not big on tackling pressure ... left it up to the individual.

I don't get why Coaches can't see the skills and tackling pressure of Top teams and think - Yeah we need to be that good.
Pressure may have been good last night ... but I'm talking about consistently every game, not when they feel like it, like after an embarrassing loss to motivate them.

I mentioned this in pre season. No skills work at all. All Match sims and contest work

 

[Soapy V]

Agreed. I thought Ollie was terrific last night. He is a genuine footballer. As is Campo. Haynes played a very good game also. Motlop much better than last week but 1.3 hurt us. We took away the way the Hawks wanted to play but we could not execute or made mistakes that cost us goals. Sadly some of our leaders failed us last night. Walsh went at 50% disposals efficiency yet again. Charlie was invisible. SOS was gallant but dropped a sitter then kicked a point instead of having a set shot directly in front. Doc dropped a sitter just before 3 quarter time that would have been a set shot for goal. Weitering and TDK tried to mark instead of spoiling inside D50 which cost us a goal. Cripps tried a difficult snap instead of giving the handball in board to a player in a better spot. You can’t blame a lot of that on the coach.

I felt for Campo last night. He is picked to be genuine link up wingman. He was running up and down wing all night yet we never swicthed or went wide. Only ball he could get was going into contest where he was smashed very time

 

[Arr0w]

8 of the bottom 10 were Blues... there's the game, right there. Even before addressing game plan and basic skill errors....

A few must be dropped.

View attachment 2256166
A few must be dropped...

Bingo, unfortunately you can only work with the resources at your disposal.

Should we be more consistent as a side? Absolutely

What I don't get, even if we are the only side in the league that bombs it long ( a fallacy), what the hell are our small forwards doing?

Even more bizarre, people were bagging Owies as not being a genuine small forward, but how many times was he hitting up at the ball carrier or find metres of space?

Better footy IQ perhaps? More on this later

It comes down to list management. Again, elite players have wanted to come to our club in the last 6 months, Trac and Houston but we 'stuck to our guns' and went with the current list.

Houston last weekend: 27 disposals, 10 intercepts, 5 inside 50s. BOG, let me say that again BOG...

Sometimes you have to pull the trigger and try and win a flag...

Not even the elite, Austin has also ignored cheaper options moving clubs that have a better skill set

Talk about a team having one had tied behind their backs

 

[majesticseacapt]

Jagga will be serviceable but not a generational player, especially now...

Not sure how you can make that statement without the kid playing a game?

Petracca has done pretty well coming off a knee..

 

[Stamos]

The umpires absolutely going off chops and losing the plot kept us in it too by keeping up stoppages. Hawks had plenty of run and if the game kept going.

Watch the highlights and see how many times there’s a free hawks player. Time after time.

What are you talking about?
The umpires murdered us.
They only evened it up in the last few minutes when the game was done.

You think taking the goal off TDK at the start was keeping us in it?

 

[Blue__Balls]

How many times last night did Hawthorn kick to the pockets where a lone Hawk player would be standing? We would fill the holes in front of the gaols but they were happy to use every part of the ground and spread. They also are happy to kick to who ever is free and in best position.

We hit the hot spot every time

They kicked to 1v1s, but did so to advantage. Mabior Chol turned into Wayne Carey against Young. Gunston plucking a one-hander over the top of his man. Hawks leaving a 30m hole right in front of goal, not single Blue thinking they should fill the space (including "General" Docherty sitting all alone in the pocket), only for Weddle to drop in for the easiest uncontested mark. Other examples too, but I think the point has been well made.

We need to go to work on how to kick to a contest in a way that gives us the greater chance of winning than losing the ball.

 

[Opium]

That is a huge problem right there ... unless Players are motivated enough to improve their skills in their own time.
I don't think they have the right attitude to work hard at it like Players in other teams.

Voss ... not big on skills training
Bolton not big on tackling pressure ... left it up to the individual.

I don't get why Coaches can't see the skills and tackling pressure of Top teams and think - Yeah we need to be that good.
Pressure may have been good last night ... but I'm talking about consistently every game, not when they feel like it, like after an embarrassing loss to motivate them.

This is amateur stuff.
No wonder the players are always injured. Always focusing on match sim and contest work. Our skills are clearly the worst in the comp and is not being addressed. Look at Harry McKay's goal kicking. Still an issue 3 years on!!!

 

[Coops93]

Jagga will be serviceable but not a generational player, especially now...

Jeez that's a very negative outlook.

Just a reminder, he was voted by the top 20 prospects in this draft as the best player in the draft. Some pre-draft media also had him as the best overall player in the draft. Some other guys had some more explosive attributes, but best player Jagga was firmly in the discussion.

Don't overthink the injury, ACLs are a long, long way from what they used to be. Petracca has done one, Gawn has done 2. Plenty of guys have done them and returned to form like nothing happened.

We are going from 8th to 13th right now...

Our list is at an age that we had to go for a flag, we've missed it, so we need to take some risks and move players on, get some draft picks and get some quality in...

I don't disagree, my point was that I'm not sure just getting Houston or Petracca would've made that difference. There's no chance we could've got both, and just one would've been good but wouldn't take us from 8th to 1st.

Our issue isn't stars, our issue is the bottom 6-8 of the 23, if not more. Adding another star wouldn't tip us over the edge.