Slowest in the comp

[Shaymuhz]

Anyone else catch this? Champion Data now track speed of ball movement - guess who's been bottom of the ladder for 4/5 years since 2020 and then 'shot up' to fourth-slowest last year, before reverting back to 18th again in rounds 1 & 2. We ain't winning a flag playing like this.

 

[Joao]

Anyone else catch this? Champion Data now track speed of ball movement - guess who's been bottom of the ladder for 4/5 years since 2020 and then 'shot up' to fourth-slowest last year, before reverting back to 18th again in rounds 1 & 2. We ain't winning a flag playing like this.

Yes, I saw it in one of the other 5 threads it got posted in.

 

[Shaymuhz]

Yes, I saw it in one of the other 5 threads it got posted in.

You know, there's a nice way of saying that

 

[mattis117]

You know, there's a nice way of saying that

No people find it annoying when new threads are opened for subjects that don't deserve their own thread. It's an etiquette thing and keeps the forum tidy.

Threads should only be created for genuine new topics.

 

[The Feeder Club]

I think it's a legitimate interesting thread. I am surprised they feel the need or even can accurately use stats to measure it though, despite this bloke's claim that he now has the technology it still seems like one of those things where the eye test is still going to be more accurate than a stat.

The eye test is we're slow.

But as the guy himself said in the end that doesn't matter if you score. Last year Sydney were the second slowest team but in the top 2 for scoring. If we could score playing slow, who cares?

What worries me as much is what it means for our defensive set ups. It was obvious using the eye test last week that Sydney are still playing slow, like we are. Whereas the week before Geelong were playing fast and destroyed our defensive set up.

Geelong and Sydney had an identical number of inside 50s - 55. But we conceded 22 goals versus 9 goals. So in the end the problem is actually the game plan against fast teams where we leak score.

People moan about the coach's lack of dare with the ball in hand and sure we're a slow team in that respect. To me as much of a worry is that he is still employing the same defensive principles he was using as the defensive assistant coach at Collingwood a decade ago. But the game has changes a lot since, I'm worried we can't defensively handle the teams that play fast like Geelong.

 

[King Huskii]

You don't need to be the fastest team in transition to be the best. Having said that we look like one of the worst teams in the comp.

 

[mightymouse75]

Evidence for what we have been witnessing & complaining about.
Stagnant, scared to take first options & trying to play safe.
We invite opposition to pressure & corale.

And now we go back to Justin's game plan & how it has not & will not stack up.
Where is plan B.

 

[King Huskii]

Evidence for what we have been witnessing & complaining about.
Stagnant, scared to take first options & trying to play safe.
We invite opposition to pressure & corale.

And now we go back to Justin's game plan & how it has not & will not stack up.
Where is plan B.

I agree with this

When we go back and sideways we invite the opposition to get behind the ball. The half forwards pressure our backs from 1 miss kick or a non 15 meter kick. Player then rushes and a turnover happens.

Our forwards who are criticized on here are starved of space to lead because opposition block the pathways.

Then we have players such as sharp bombing it forward which also doesn't help. There's a reason why he didn't get a game for GC and was offloaded for nothing

 

[chaosball32]

Interesting graph here that confirms what myself and most people have been thinking for years; that we move the ball way too slow. Second slowest team to be exact.

Of the 6 teams in the ‘slow and controlled’ quadrant, only 1 made finals, and 2 of them finished in the bottom 4. Sydney are a clear outlier.

Contrary, of the 6 teams in the ‘fast and direct’ quadrant, 4 made finals, and 2 of them finished in the top 4. Teams like Brisbane and GWS, whilst trending slightly faster, seem to have found the happy medium.

There was another graph which showed since 2021 we’ve had the smallest differential in ball movement change, meaning we’ve played the same style of slow and indirect footy for the last 4 years. Of the top 6 teams who have trended faster (Geelong, Hawthorn, Port, GWS, Collingwood and Brisbane), 3 have won flags, Port and GWS have regularly been around the pointy end and Hawthorn look to be a team on the rise.

I don’t think it’s as simple as move ball fast = good team but there’s an undeniable correlation between the better teams playing more confident attacking football and the lesser teams choosing to be pragmatic and safe.

Scoring has gone up 6% in the last 3 years. Rule changes have been bought in to ensure more fluid, higher scoring games. The game has noticeably gotten faster. Defensive structures have advanced to a point where it’s very difficult to piece your way from d50 to goal. Gone are the days where you can park the bus and defend a 20 point lead for an entire quarter by chipping the ball around your defensive half, as we found out the hard way numerous times last year. This style of football may have worked for Paul Roos and Terry Wallace 20 years ago but it seldom works today.

Will we see a different style of football from Longmuir in 2025 now that it’s been proven multiple times that his style doesn’t work? We will see, we have enough line-breaking types of players to do so. The IAS game was worrying, not because we lost a pre-season game we were never suppose to win anyway, but more because that “vanilla” style of football that we’ve come to know from Longmuir was prevalent again. Was having flashbacks watching Clark and co hold the ball up at half-back letting the opposition set-up defensively.

I posted this a few weeks ago. Opinions were mixed.

We are slow, but even more than that we are indirect, which is a result of the high handball gameplan, a lot of which are sideways or backwards or not to an advantage. That’s Longmuir ball for you, overly safe and lacking dare.

Look at the teams on the left side of the graph and look at the teams on the right side of the graph and compare where they finished last season.

Ignore those saying otherwise. It is an interesting discussion and it is worthy of a thread. It’s been a problem for Freo for a long time and doesn’t look like changing. Some people just permanently have the purple-tinted glasses on and only want positive and rosey discussion about the team.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Anyone else catch this? Champion Data now track speed of ball movement - guess who's been bottom of the ladder for 4/5 years since 2020 and then 'shot up' to fourth-slowest last year, before reverting back to 18th again in rounds 1 & 2. We ain't winning a flag playing like this.

JL has been presented with this in the past and he just claims it’s false because we handball a lot. Lol.

 

[blue shark]

JL has been presented with this in the past and he just claims it’s false because we handball a lot. Lol.

Freo are really good at circle work

 

[dominguez]

JL has been presented with this in the past and he just claims it’s false because we handball a lot. Lol.

Like Hamish Brayshaw said after the Geelong game our handball game plan might get us into the 8 but when the heat goes up in Finals or against good teams like Geelong we melt and the game plan falls apart.

 

[Dockeroo]

Like Hamish Brayshaw said after the Geelong game our handball game plan might get us into the 8 but when the heat goes up in Finals or against good teams like Geelong we melt and the game plan falls apart.

Been saying this for about three years now. The evidence is overwhelming at this stage. How much more do people need?
It happens over and over and over again. Rinse and repeat.
Honestly at this point it’s like the definition of insanity.
We are possibly the easiest team in the comp to coach against.

 

[Joao]

You know, there's a nice way of saying that

Nobody wants to read the same thing 5 times, I'm not apologising for that.

 

[Righteo]

we're elite at sideways chips and handballing backwards to players under the hammer though

 

[FreoMatt]

Nobody wants to read the same thing [emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]] times, I'm not apologising for that.

No one’s forcing you to read this thread, if you already had enough of the topic why did you read it???


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Wigarus]

Nobody wants to read the same thing 5 times, I'm not apologising for that.

23000 posts and I bet you never repeated yourself once...

 

[ignoramus]

Nobody wants to read the same thing 5 times, I'm not apologising for that.

Isn’t that what BF is? One bunch of people saying the same thing over and over and another bunch of people saying a different thing over and over?

 

[Joao]

23000 posts and I bet you never repeated yourself once...

Isn’t that what BF is? One bunch of people saying the same thing over and over and another bunch of people saying a different thing over and over?

I think it's fairly easy to discern the difference between that type of thing and this scenario.

 

[King Huskii]

23000 posts and I bet you never repeated yourself once...

You repeat yourself all the time

 

[Wigarus]

I think it's fairly easy to discern the difference between that type of thing and this scenario.

Yeah, and what's that? You're having a go at a guy who hasn't posted here since before Christmas, but he should know you spend your whole life on here and cater to what you've read?

Tosser

 

[King Huskii]

Only ever comes on the freo forum to bag out JLO and has nothing positive to contribute then calls another poster a tosser

Sounds about right

 

[ignoramus]

I think it's fairly easy to discern the difference between that type of thing and this scenario.

Not having a go at you. Just making a weak attempt at humour.

 

[GingerDocker]

I think the truth of the subject has us all on edge.

 

[stax on the mull]

They're just theories. If Chris Hoyne was the smartest man in football he wouldn't be working for Champion Data.

A lot of analysis is made to fit the result. Fremantle aren't winning so they find the metric of slow ball movement to explain it, by using a supposed new measurement that they haven't used before. It's great for boffins but what does it say about their past formula for analysis.

When we're winning they'll find a retrospective reason to say why we're good. In 2022 Champion Data told us that we were the best team for scoring after a turnover in our defensive 50m. i.e. winning it in our D50 and taking down to the other end to score. That might have been true on the average data for when we had a block of wins, but it was destroyed by Collingwood in the semi final.

And Geelong under Chris Scott were apparently really slow but somehow they've also been a finals team for the past 15 he has coached them, so how much better have they got since they changed it. Was it their premiership year they got it going fast, or was it last year when they made the prelim., or was it the year in between when they missed the finals. So they had it, then they lost it and now they've got it back, except for 2025 Rd 2 vs St Kilda - wtf happened there? Or someone will tell me fast ball movement is a new tactic now, and that the ball movement was much so slower back in 2011 when Geelong won the premiership.

We all know the competition isn't even in terms of playing teams each other twice. There's just too many variables - like who we play, where we play, who is missing from our B23 team, who is missing from the opposition's B23 when they play us, what were the conditions we played in, etc. And in explaining his findings "the smartest man in football" seems to be conflating the 2 games this season, with the last 4 games we lost in 2024 and with the last few seasons. At which point exactly were we on the bottom. It fits that we're on the bottom in 2025 because we're 2nd last on the AFL ladder, but speed of ball movement can't be the be all and end because we sat around the Top 6 for most of last season.

If it's based on averages, if you play one game with really fast ball movement how quickly does your average suddenly spike up. Every team makes plans to stop the opposition ball movement. It's part of getting the ball back in the "they've got it", "we've got it" or "it's in dispute" scenarios and as often as moving it fast beats the defense there's also playing too fast that you constantly cough the ball up to the opposition set up.

Just a reminder that Champion Data also had the Richmond team that won 3 premierships in 4 years, rated by their analysis on identifying premiership teams based on performance as a middle of the ladder, outside the Top 8 team.