Autopsy Round 9 - St Kilda v Carlton *SPUD'S GAME*

[saintbill]

Lyon can't do much about the lack of quality mids and talls. He's paying for a decade's worth of horrific drafting and player development. There's clearly a concerted effort to right the ship but the damage done since he left the first time was extremely severe and won't be easy to fix.

That's fair to some degree. However he can take some responsibility for us remaining unprepared physically to compete at AFL level.

Old Ross would never allow an extra day off. 16 hours at the club a week is pathetic. We sound like a team of uni students, not a professional sporting club.

 

[The Cobra]

Hopefully it's nothing too serious as our forward line will be stuffed without him.

Butler should be close to returning but he isn't as good as Higgins and neither is Collard who needs a spell.
[/QUOTE

In Q1 Higgo stopped running mid stride, started hobbling and eventually went off.

He might have been sick but I think his calf might be the bigger issue. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him miss a few weeks.

 

[The Cobra]

He's not a wingman. He's not a backman.
We have to play him in the guts or at worst HFF.

I still think wing might be his spot but gee he was poor last night and made some big errors which cost us.

I’m a big supporter of Windy but I expect after 50+ games he should now be a consistent and reliable performer as he is dedicated and a hard trainer with leadership potential. Needs to turn it around & deliver consistently asap - no excuses.

 

[tomjoad]

Once someone gets whipping boy status, everything they do somehow warrants criticism. No matter what he did last night, it wouldnt be considered good enough.

We lack true leadership and skills. There needs to be transition in that area by seasons end. We are young and inexperienced in quite a few key areas. We are not as fit & fast as we think we are. We grossly over rate players that we want to BELIEVE are special talents...but are not. These are things that are either being rectified, or can change easily enough.
Sinclair, Wilkie, and Nas are our only A graders. Macrae, Ro and Higgo next cabs off the rank. Owens, Pou, Sharman showing a bit more than just promise alone. The rest are either at the end, too early to tell, or just soldiers.
This is why no one should be surprised by yesterday's loss.
Carlton "should" be top 4 with their list. We are not. What we have is a base standard that allows us to run with good teams, but not enough to run with great teams.
Still plenty of work to do. Fix the part at the top there, and we'll see better progress with the rest of it.

 

[littlecreatures]

Last night I was just messing around bringing up the Higgins goal last year and Langford... but since you took the bait - he did more than SFA today. Langford is a dead set gun and AT THE MOMENT (not yelling just emphasising) he is absolutely miles ahead of Travaglia.

View attachment 2310479

Awesome, thankfully players aren’t made in their first half a dozen games

 

[TheJackal]

Awesome, thankfully players aren’t made in their first half a dozen games

He was awesome, you are right. I know he doesn't play for us but anyone can appreciate a gun footballer.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Sure. But you will never play two pure ruckman in the same team. Neither are great forwards. The game is all about pace now.

Perhaps. Marshall will either find himself predominantly playing a KPP role or be traded. I suspect the former to take some heat off King, if he ever gets back.
Either way the game is talant acquisition. Stkilda is not in a position to get to picky, so long as they improve our list.

 

[marcus1232]

I still think wing might be his spot but gee he was poor last night and made some big errors which cost us.

I’m a big supporter of Windy but I expect after 50+ games he should now be a consistent and reliable performer as he is dedicated and a hard trainer with leadership potential. Needs to turn it around & deliver consistently asap - no excuses.

He isnt a winger he is Jack Steele MkII

The problem is in todays game you cant have 2 Jack Steeles running through the middle

 

[Parkysp]

Selection will be fascinating next week after watching all of the Zebs game tonight after being extremely frustrated watching last night's effort.

Wood, Clark and Jones (sub) all should come in.

Does Collard play as we need a small forward even if he did SFA in both games (sub and Zebs)? We are absolutely desperate for (a fit) Butler. As much as the midfield, a gun small forward is an absolute need in list management.

That leaves the following based on last night in the gun to be out

LOC, Boxshall, Garcia, Windy, Hill, Collard

Post review, early next week team selection

In - Wood, Clark, Jones (sub)

Out - LOC, Boxshall, Collard (just can't select him after that 5 quarters of football over the weekend)

Windy and Garcia would want to get minimum 10 more disposals than last night if they want to play the week after and Hilly get his concentration and physical levels well up.

Geez we are desperate for Liam Henry to get his mojo back...

 

[stfan]

Cartons second ruck is Pittonet. And he’s good. Always up there in clearances. But nobody plays two pure rucks anymore.

Neither Marshall nor TDK are pure rucks though, as in their value being mainly as tap ruckman.

Both can win ball and are mobile enough to link other players.

Marshall is a more a follower.

Both can push forward, and also float back.

TDK is also much younger, so most likely the thinking is that he will go the distance with our growing pool of young to mid aged players.

 

[SG34]

And let’s be honest he telegraphs his “run from behind give a get” then runs into trouble …then shits his pants …then turns it over
He doesn’t have laser kicking - last night basic kicks under no pressure missed targets ????
I’m with you at least Travaglia will tackle
Henry for Hill

Our biggest 'turn-over kings' are Hill and NAS. Have been for a long time. Doesn't make them bad. Hill is now 31 so it won't get much better from here, but to suggest Henry replaces Hill is absurd according to the view from my window. Have you seen Henry? Lately? I wouldn't be surprised if Henry's goose is already cooked. Now i have written off players before to my shame, (Ben Long seems to be going nicely now, and so does Ben King) but I can't see how we'd be better dropping Hill for Henry. Hill makes things happen. It is always risky and a roll of the dice, but he has slick hands and is a nice kick. I'd say he would be in our top five kickers, even now. (Caveat is that he is 31, but people have been writing him off for years) A plyer to contrast with Hill is Ronnie Byrnes. A bit stronger than Hill but not quite as talented, he also does a lot of good things but gets exposed a bit.

EDIt: I'd say Hill is in out top 3 best kickers.

 

[Teflon]

Our biggest 'turn-over kings' are Hill and NAS. Have been for a long time. Doesn't make them bad. Hill is now 31 so it won't get much better from here, but to suggest Henry replaces Hill is absurd according to the view from my window. Have you seen Henry? Lately? I wouldn't be surprised if Henry's goose is already cooked. Now i have written off players before to my shame, (Ben Long seems to be going nicely now, and so does Ben King) but I can't see how we'd be better dropping Hill for Henry. Hill makes things happen. It is always risky and a roll of the dice, but he has slick hands and is a nice kick. I'd say he would be in our top five kickers, even now. (Caveat is that he is 31, but people have been writing him off for years) A plyer to contrast with Hill is Ronnie Byrnes. A bit stronger than Hill but not quite as talented, he also does a lot of good things but gets exposed a bit.

EDIt: I'd say Hill is in out top 3 best kickers.

Hill makes things happen all right…ask Carlton they love him …
Agree re Henry watching tonight…he was deplorable
I’d just play Travaglia and one of Hill or Wilson goes - both not interest in physicality at all and both been poor by foot - it’s not about stats FFs watch the game in key moments …they cost us dearly

 

[Diehard Saint]

Hill makes things happen all right…ask Carlton they love him …
Agree re Henry watching tonight…he was deplorable
I’d just play Travaglia and one of Hill or Wilson goes - both not interested physicality at all and both been poor by foot - it’s not about stats FFs watch the game in key moments …they cost us dearly

I mentioned two weeks back that Wilson needed some time back in the twos, a la Pou. Run is not much good if you do not do much with it.
Will be very beneficial for him and Wood or Travaglia? will hopefully replace him. He’s a kid. No shame in going back to the twos for a while.

Not hanging my hat on Henry. Think he’s going turn out to be a poor acquisition. How many games has he managed in all the time he’s been with us? His reputation has far exceeded his output thus far - hope I’m wrong about it though.

Hill will, I doubt, be dropped.

 

[SG34]

I mentioned two weeks back that Wilson needed some time back in the twos, a la Pou. Run is not much good if you do not do much with it.
Will be very beneficial for him and Wood or Travaglia? will hopefully replace him. He’s a kid. No shame in going back to the twos for a while.

Not hanging my hat on Henry. Think he’s going turn out to be a poor acquisition. How many games has he managed in all the time he’s been with us? His reputation has far exceeded his output thus far - hope I’m wrong about it though.

Hill will, I doubt, be dropped.

Henry has class and talent, but I suspect (and I am just a dumb English teacher) that his injuries are serious, like career fog level serious. I mean they create a 'fog' , because the speed and turn is compromised and yet the talent is still there. I suspect Butler is in the same boat. I am also wondering about Steele and Wood. I suspect they are both permanently compromised, but not as bad as Henry and Butler.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

my mind was just wandering to how ridiculous and funny Phillipou's goal celebrations were hahah, what a cooker, we need more of that

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Well nobody seems to have really put their hand up at Sandy outside of Jones and a prominent but scrappy Travaglia.

I don't think we get much from playing Jones over Garcia or Box against WC but they might reward form and at least make him sub. Hill won't be dropped after one bad game but geeze he was terrible. Wood has to come in. I really wish we had a different tall forward option to Caminiti but Keeler is miles off and Heath didn't do anything to make a case. I've been wanting Byrnes out of the side all year but his last 1.5 games have been good.

If I had to guess, I'd say the only change is Wood for Collard with Garcia or Box sub. Maybe one of those two is squeezed out for Jones or Clark.

 

[mighty_sainters]

my mind was just wandering to how ridiculous and funny Phillipou's goal celebrations were hahah, what a cooker, we need more of that

He’s definitely a different unit.

 

[SG34]

Hill makes things happen all right…ask Carlton they love him …
Agree re Henry watching tonight…he was deplorable
I’d just play Travaglia and one of Hill or Wilson goes - both not interest in physicality at all and both been poor by foot - it’s not about stats FFs watch the game in key moments …they cost us dearly

I wouldn't be so reckless. Hill offers (and disclaimer, he is old), way more value than Travaglia or Wilson, right now, if getting 4 points next week is a priority.

 

[Ricmel]

Sharman is the best forward on our entire list.

For the past 14 years I have thought it was our midfield that was our missing link (it still is I think). But scarily, our forward line - or more correctly our lack of a KPF is looming large.

Club has taken a massive punt on Max King. Fully fit and confident, I think he is a 50+ forward. His body is the problem and we have locked into that body until well into the future. Given it is currently Max King then nothing.....it is a huge worry.

 

[BrutThough]

I mentioned two weeks back that Wilson needed some time back in the twos, a la Pou. Run is not much good if you do not do much with it.
Will be very beneficial for him and Wood or Travaglia? will hopefully replace him. He’s a kid. No shame in going back to the twos for a while.

Not hanging my hat on Henry. Think he’s going turn out to be a poor acquisition. How many games has he managed in all the time he’s been with us? His reputation has far exceeded his output thus far - hope I’m wrong about it though.

Hill will, I doubt, be dropped.

Wilson won't be dropped either.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Wilson won't be dropped either.

There would be merit in it though. Windy was dropped and came back better. Pou was dropped and came back better. Garcia. I’m sure there’s still plenty for him to learn.

This is not hating on the kid - but there’s nothing wrong with the seconds for a young kid to develop them. Opens a spot for wood at the very least.

 

[Sully111]

Regardless of whether he's dropped or not, I hope they show Wilson the vision where he absolutely squibbed a contest in the first half and tell him he needs to lift in that area.

 

[BrutThough]

There would be merit in it though. Windy was dropped and came back better. Pou was dropped and came back better. Garcia. I’m sure there’s still plenty for him to learn.

This is not hating on the kid - but there’s nothing wrong with the seconds for a young kid to develop them. Opens a spot for wood at the very least.

I disagree that there is merit dropping a wing who had the numbers Dracy had. Yes, there are things he could have done better in the game and he needs to back himself to take the first option more but that's not a game worthy of being dropped.

There are multiple options who on merit, would need to go out first. And it's not as if we have flush with options whose form warrants bringing in.

 

[EddieMurphy]

At the moment, he's the league leader in turnovers and he seems hesitant in some contests. We all want him to succeed, but It's fair criticism at the moment.

31 games, players don't really produce consistent output until they hit 50+.
He was pretty bloody good last year. Dempsey didn't deserve the rising star

 

[Zzzed]

We just have to persist with Caminiti as a defender until either Barrat or Tauru push him out.

Would actually like to see Tauru play a 1/2 a game at CHF for Sandy to see what he gives us and the other 1/2 at CHB. This year is essentially just a development year for him anyway so why not get a good look at him at both ends.

Desperately need another tall option up forward. Half way through his 3rd season it’s apparent to me that as good as he looks on the training track, Isaac ‘the leaf’ Keeler is not the answer unfortunately. Perhaps it’s time to focus on Heath as a full forward. He doesn’t look like he will make the grade as ruck - and importantly he doesn’t have the tank that modern ruckman need. What’s the point of persisting with him until year end as a ruckman when he is clearly behind Boyd.