Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Pocket Terrace]

It's the thing that does my head in when the subject turns to our defensive issues in the media and at times in here.Its as if we have been wilfully negligent when it comes to looking for KPD solutions.

It also ignores the fact that no matter how successful we are or how much we've improved our training facilities to a point where they are amongst the best in the competition. We continue to battle pre-conceived biases that are in built with people as to our clubs position in the games hierarchy. Its why Hawthorn, Collingwood and Geelongs in the Melbournes club orbit continue to hoover up the games elite FA talent when the become available.

Its why St.Kilda have been forced to go all in chasing FA talent and risk going into the next season with an explosive cigar in one hand and with a two-seven offsuit hand in the other.

Which of O’Sullivan, Stewart, Henry, DeKoning and Guthrie were lured from other clubs? Did you see Weddle play yesterday?

I really hope our list management team don’t adopt the same woe is us mentality.

We’ve had the same chances as every other club to address our long-standing and glaring issues and pulled together a mish-mash of rookies, DFAs and failed forwards.

 

[cleveland]

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Im bored. And its blowing a gale and pissing down outside my window.

So here we go...

We are our own worst enemy.

No. Our inability to throw of the shackles of history, perception and a competition that rewarded systemic corruption by clubs with wealthy benefactors or the biases of headquarters were our worst enemies. How we were supposed to do this with our arse out of our pants, selling off players to keep the lights on for much of our history is a mystery to me.

You think new recruits want to play in Ballarat??? Yet people on here bang on about how good it is.

How is it any different than new recruits facing the prospect of playing in Launceston 4 x a season or the drizzle at GMHBA Stadium the middle of winter when Hawthorn and Geelong come knocking???

As somebody who lives in the region I couldn't care less about games in Ballarat. Like Hawthorn, Norf or any other team selling games. I see them for what they are, a way of bringing in some sweet local and state government cash for games if they were held at Marvel would probably incur a loss for the club. If the games garner more supporters out of the region then that nice tangental side effect. But no matter what the club says, they're not the driver of the initiative.

People like to bang on about the negative aspects of the game because of it inconveniences them. Tor it dilutes teh perceived advantages of their membership/seating arrangements. They don't ever seem to take into account the real reasons as to why the games are actually held there. Money and how it keeps the club in the healthy financial position that it currently find itself in. Personally I'll put up with some personal inconvenience for that.

They want big games, big exposure. Need to be an attractive club and that means a few home games at the MCG.

Do you mean big games, big exposure. Like the closed shop of marquee games between the established big teams that the AFL has made their exclusive domain?

How exactly do you suggest we break into this shop?

Take a look at who we played and where (10 different stadiums) we played this year and you'll understand the inequities in the fixturing system that we're up against.

We played North Melbourne (H)x2, St Kilda(H)x2, Brisbane (A)x2, GWS (A.& H), Fremantle (A & H) Essendon twice (H)x2.

Which means we played the MCG co-tenats once each and one of those games was a centenary game against the Pies as a home game and one was an away game against the Demons.

We played the Hawks at home as we did Richmond.

It's not us. It's them and by them I mean the AFL and their broken fixturing system that favours the big over the small and TV revenue above all else. Something that saw us relegated to playing a single away game against a co-tenant of the MCG.

Which of O’Sullivan, Stewart, Henry, DeKoning and Guthrie were lured from other clubs?

Theres no doubt that their admin, coaching,identification and recruitment of lesser talent is elite. But you cannot look past the fact that they can also draw in established elite talent like Dangerfield, Cameron and Smith. Or their ongoing and very real pursuit of Butters, Reid and every other high profile FA or un-contracted player in the game.

The closest we've ever got in that regard was when Treloar fell into our lap.

The last FA we were tied to is holding down the FB role at Hawthorn.

Which is my point.

Did you see Weddle play yesterday?

Yeah I saw him. He was ok, He didnt quite rise to the level of the commentators masturbatory call but he was ok. His running and getting to the right offensive and defensive spots on the ground is elite. His disposal not so much.

Like Dempsey he is the prototypical modern wingman.

So what. Are you making a revisionist point about our not recruiting him?

Just like the 15 other sides including Hawthorn who all looked past him in the first round.

We chose a guy who filled a greater need than a rangy 192cm utility with a shit haircut who is currently playing on a wing.

Although we aren't really blessed with established wingers. They aren't exactly a pressing need either. Could he play as an undersized KPD for us if we'd recruited him? Maybe. But he doesn't.

So its seems to be as pointless as a St.Kilda fan musing over why they didn't pick Bontempelli over Jack Billings.

I really hope our list management team don’t adopt the same woe is us mentality.
We’ve had the same chances as every other club to address our long-standing and glaring issues and pulled together a mish-mash of rookies, DFAs and failed forwards.

Its not question of woe is me or any other claptrap.

Its just a fact that we have had an historic inability to draw top end talent to the club from outside of traditional recruiting pathways through the draft.

And like every other club. We fill the gaps between the guns and established role fillers with a "mish-mash of rookies, DFAs and failed forwards." In the hope of turning a turd into gold. Something that if you take a look at our 2016 side which was chock full of the aforementioned types we are pretty good at.

Its list management 101.

 

[Dogman 1]

Any thought on Henry Hathwaite? Tore it up again in Hawthorn's ressies, 37 possessions.

 

[Dogman 1]

Sorry, Hustwaite.

 

[CDBulldog]

Im bored. And its blowing a gale and pissing down outside my window.

So here we go...



No. Our inability to throw of the shackles of history, perception and a competition that rewarded systemic corruption by clubs with wealthy benefactors or the biases of headquarters were our worst enemies. How we were supposed to do this with our arse out of our pants, selling off players to keep the lights on for much of our history is a mystery to me.



How is it any different than new recruits facing the prospect of playing in Launceston 4 x a season or the drizzle at GMHBA Stadium the middle of winter when Hawthorn and Geelong come knocking???

As somebody who lives in the region I couldn't care less about games in Ballarat. Like Hawthorn, Norf or any other team selling games. I see them for what they are, a way of bringing in some sweet local and state government cash for games if they were held at Marvel would probably incur a loss for the club. If the games garner more supporters out of the region then that nice tangental side effect. But no matter what the club says, they're not the driver of the initiative.

People like to bang on about the negative aspects of the game because of it inconveniences them. Tor it dilutes teh perceived advantages of their membership/seating arrangements. They don't ever seem to take into account the real reasons as to why the games are actually held there. Money and how it keeps the club in the healthy financial position that it currently find itself in. Personally I'll put up with some personal inconvenience for that.



Do you mean big games, big exposure. Like the closed shop of marquee games between the established big teams that the AFL has made their exclusive domain?

How exactly do you suggest we break into this shop?

Take a look at who we played and where (10 different stadiums) we played this year and you'll understand the inequities in the fixturing system that we're up against.

We played North Melbourne (H)x2, St Kilda(H)x2, Brisbane (A)x2, GWS (A.& H), Fremantle (A & H) Essendon twice (H)x2.

Which means we played the MCG co-tenats once each and one of those games was a centenary game against the Pies as a home game and one was an away game against the Demons.

We played the Hawks at home as we did Richmond.

It's not us. It's them and by them I mean the AFL and their broken fixturing system that favours the big over the small and TV revenue above all else. Something that saw us relegated to playing a single away game against a co-tenant of the MCG.



Theres no doubt that their admin, coaching,identification and recruitment of lesser talent is elite. But you cannot look past the fact that they can also draw in established elite talent like Dangerfield, Cameron and Smith. Or their ongoing and very real pursuit of Butters, Reid and every other high profile FA or un-contracted player in the game.

The closest we've ever got in that regard was when Treloar fell into our lap.

The last FA we were tied to is holding down the FB role at Hawthorn.

Which is my point.



Yeah I saw him. He was ok, He didnt quite rise to the level of the commentators masturbatory call but he was ok. His running and getting to the right offensive and defensive spots on the ground is elite. His disposal not so much.

Like Dempsey he is the prototypical modern wingman.

So what. Are you making a revisionist point about our not recruiting him?

Just like the 15 other sides including Hawthorn who all looked past him in the first round.

We chose a guy who filled a greater need than a rangy 192cm utility with a shit haircut who is currently playing on a wing.

Although we aren't really blessed with established wingers. They aren't exactly a pressing need either. Could he play as an undersized KPD for us if we'd recruited him? Maybe. But he doesn't.

So its seems to be as pointless as a St.Kilda fan musing over why they didn't pick Bontempelli over Jack Billings.



Its not question of woe is me or any other claptrap.

Its just a fact that we have had an historic inability to draw top end talent to the club from outside of traditional recruiting pathways through the draft.

And like every other club. We fill the gaps between the guns and established role fillers with a "mish-mash of rookies, DFAs and failed forwards." In the hope of turning a turd into gold. Something that if you take a look at our 2016 side which was chock full of the aforementioned types we are pretty good at.

Its list management 101.

Someone willing to do a summary of this impressively detailed post??!!!

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Someone willing to do a summary of this impressively detailed post??!!!

I got you.

Man avoiding doing work around his property on a shitty day.

Posts on the internet.

 

[adogsfan5]

View attachment 2419482

Pretty good in the know poster?

 

[Doggies7]

Pretty good in the know poster?

Yep maybe the best

 

[Dogs Rule]

Would not be overly surprised if Wilkie does stay, but if it extracts an extra 300k a year out of St Kilda, brilliant. The squeeze will happen at some point and like Collingwood and Treloar we should be ready to swoop on what will be a horrible carcass.

 

[redmania]

I just caught up on this thread. Do we all have serious doubts we can land some decent defenders? Are we that much unattractive as a club to join?

 

[Libbaaaa]

Would not be overly surprised if Wilkie does stay, but if it extracts an extra 300k a year out of St Kilda, brilliant. The squeeze will happen at some point and like Collingwood and Treloar we should be ready to swoop on what will be a horrible carcass.

The Saints fans all think existing players are playing for the love of the badge or something. It is simple mathematics that they are overpaying for okay to good players and the existing guns of the clubs will be asking for more. But supposedly Wilkie got some bonus earlier this year so he’ll be just fine with being the 10th best paid player at the club.

 

[Pocket Terrace]

Im bored. And its blowing a gale and pissing down outside my window.

So here we go...



No. Our inability to throw of the shackles of history, perception and a competition that rewarded systemic corruption by clubs with wealthy benefactors or the biases of headquarters were our worst enemies. How we were supposed to do this with our arse out of our pants, selling off players to keep the lights on for much of our history is a mystery to me.



How is it any different than new recruits facing the prospect of playing in Launceston 4 x a season or the drizzle at GMHBA Stadium the middle of winter when Hawthorn and Geelong come knocking???

As somebody who lives in the region I couldn't care less about games in Ballarat. Like Hawthorn, Norf or any other team selling games. I see them for what they are, a way of bringing in some sweet local and state government cash for games if they were held at Marvel would probably incur a loss for the club. If the games garner more supporters out of the region then that nice tangental side effect. But no matter what the club says, they're not the driver of the initiative.

People like to bang on about the negative aspects of the game because of it inconveniences them. Tor it dilutes teh perceived advantages of their membership/seating arrangements. They don't ever seem to take into account the real reasons as to why the games are actually held there. Money and how it keeps the club in the healthy financial position that it currently find itself in. Personally I'll put up with some personal inconvenience for that.



Do you mean big games, big exposure. Like the closed shop of marquee games between the established big teams that the AFL has made their exclusive domain?

How exactly do you suggest we break into this shop?

Take a look at who we played and where (10 different stadiums) we played this year and you'll understand the inequities in the fixturing system that we're up against.

We played North Melbourne (H)x2, St Kilda(H)x2, Brisbane (A)x2, GWS (A.& H), Fremantle (A & H) Essendon twice (H)x2.

Which means we played the MCG co-tenats once each and one of those games was a centenary game against the Pies as a home game and one was an away game against the Demons.

We played the Hawks at home as we did Richmond.

It's not us. It's them and by them I mean the AFL and their broken fixturing system that favours the big over the small and TV revenue above all else. Something that saw us relegated to playing a single away game against a co-tenant of the MCG.



Theres no doubt that their admin, coaching,identification and recruitment of lesser talent is elite. But you cannot look past the fact that they can also draw in established elite talent like Dangerfield, Cameron and Smith. Or their ongoing and very real pursuit of Butters, Reid and every other high profile FA or un-contracted player in the game.

The closest we've ever got in that regard was when Treloar fell into our lap.

The last FA we were tied to is holding down the FB role at Hawthorn.

Which is my point.



Yeah I saw him. He was ok, He didnt quite rise to the level of the commentators masturbatory call but he was ok. His running and getting to the right offensive and defensive spots on the ground is elite. His disposal not so much.

Like Dempsey he is the prototypical modern wingman.

So what. Are you making a revisionist point about our not recruiting him?

Just like the 15 other sides including Hawthorn who all looked past him in the first round.

We chose a guy who filled a greater need than a rangy 192cm utility with a shit haircut who is currently playing on a wing.

Although we aren't really blessed with established wingers. They aren't exactly a pressing need either. Could he play as an undersized KPD for us if we'd recruited him? Maybe. But he doesn't.

So its seems to be as pointless as a St.Kilda fan musing over why they didn't pick Bontempelli over Jack Billings.



Its not question of woe is me or any other claptrap.

Its just a fact that we have had an historic inability to draw top end talent to the club from outside of traditional recruiting pathways through the draft.

And like every other club. We fill the gaps between the guns and established role fillers with a "mish-mash of rookies, DFAs and failed forwards." In the hope of turning a turd into gold. Something that if you take a look at our 2016 side which was chock full of the aforementioned types we are pretty good at.

Its list management 101.

I’m well aware of our back 6 in 2016 boasting all-Australians Morris, Boyd, Wood and if not for bad luck, Murphy.

To compare them to our currently thin and makeshift defensive stocks is quite a stretch.

Forgive me if I don’t get overjoyed with excitement when the opposition walk through our current weak defence because we identified some diamonds in the rough more than 10 years ago.

Weddle, despite his haircut, propensity to incite masturbation and ability to play on the wing, has played a lot of good footy behind the ball. These players are out there, but need investment at the national draft. We tried that with Buss, but the jury’s out on that one. Hopefully he makes it.

Put it this way, if clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn keep drafting good defenders with their first rounders while we bring in DFAs and mid-season rookies like Gardner, don’t be surprised if good players want to join that set up as opposed to ours.

Our list is imbalanced and it has nothing to do with being a smaller club.

 

[JohnnySteel]

Really want Erasmus. Kids ready to explode with more midfield time.

 

[Mofra]

View attachment 2419482

C4 has one of the best records on Bigfooty. Gets good info

 

[Mofra]

Would not be overly surprised if Wilkie does stay, but if it extracts an extra 300k a year out of St Kilda, brilliant. The squeeze will happen at some point and like Collingwood and Treloar we should be ready to swoop on what will be a horrible carcass.

Maybe it has - Windhager looks set to join the Demons

 

[adogsfan5]

I just caught up on this thread. Do we all have serious doubts we can land some decent defenders? Are we that much unattractive as a club to join?

Not really doubts. Theres just not many big names available. We’ll have to get creative

 

[LondonBulldog]

Hey Norm,

I get Ballarat for the money, yet it’s a small minded strategy. 12k stadium is ridiculous. How embarrassing if our game against Adelaide 35k plus heaps of kids and families would have been played there this year. We should never play there again if we won’t to grow the club. We need to be strong, bold present the current numbers, more attendance than any other docklands club and demand 2 home MCG games each year (just like Geelong gets). As I said exposure is what sponsors and marquee players are looking for, not small fry games in Ballarat in front of 10k people.

 

[cecil]

The Age reporting that we are one of the clubs who have asked about Mitch McGovern

11

Mitch Mcgovern

Age

31

Ht

190cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

189.8

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

1.1

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.9

3star

MG

179.6

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

MG

218.0

4star

 

[Golden_6]

The Age reporting that we are one of the clubs who have asked about Mitch McGovern

Now that’s bottom of the barrel.

 

[JTCWBFC]

The Age reporting that we are one of the clubs who have asked about Mitch McGovern

Going to worry even less about defence next year perhaps

 

[doggiesin08]

Going to worry even less about defence next year perhaps

I wouldn’t mind him if we’re losing Buku and he’s fine being mostly in the VFL and a backup AFL option at either end of minimum chips - still beats getting a job in the real world.

 

[VitalDread]

The Age reporting that we are one of the clubs who have asked about Mitch McGovern

Gonna be wild when he's top 5 in intercept marks for us next year

 

[cecil]

Im fine with it considering we will lose Khamis, Jones, JUH and potentially Poulter.

The first 3 out - Young, McGovern and a Draftee in?

 

[geoffjennings79]

Mitch McGovern

11

Mitch Mcgovern

Age

31

Ht

190cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

189.8

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

1.1

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.9

3star

MG

179.6

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

MG

218.0

4star

?! Wow, may as well chase Jeremy too. A decidedly underwhelming rumour. This is the start of us being linked to every two-bit defender in the league, after Silvagni took the filthy lucre at Moorabbin, and Wilkie seems likely to stay and hope all his new teammates shout him coffees...