Review Bad, Ugly, and Horrendous vs Hawks

[StonesThrow]

I still don't get how the Hawks were such underdogs??

 

[marty36]

I still don't get how the Hawks were such underdogs??

Mitchell Wingard Birchall and someone else was out, playing at AO

 

[GreyCrow]

Revealing article on Clarkson's insight and planning, said post-game:
https://www.afc.com.au/news/2019-03-25/what-they-said-clarkson
Get this (my emphasis):
" Their midfield still had a lot of possession of the ball. The Crouch brothers and Sloane, they’re such high quality players and they’re always going to get the ball. But it’s how potent they can be when they get it in their hands. Adelaide found it hard to get the fluency inside-50, and to take marks and kick goals.

It used to be said of Cousins that his possessions never hurt from behind the centre square. I get the feeling Matt in particular is following the same path

 

[thebirdman 24]

It used to be said of Cousins that his possessions never hurt from behind the centre square. I get the feeling Matt in particular is following the same path

we have too many butchers in the midfield. Crouch x2, Sloane, Gibbs, Jacobs all not good kicks. Add Greenwood to that list when fit.

it seems we like the chaos ball theory that if we just hack it forward we will get something happening inside 50.

 

[SugarShane]

yeah, and most of them were turn overs... he’d finally get some ****in brownlow votes if he played for the opposition every week

I can't be bothered going back to find it but I do remember reading a post in this thread that Mackay's turnovers weren't his fault. They were good kicks but the person up the field was in the wrong spot which is why it went straight to a Hawthorn player. So keep that in mind.

 

[hey shorty]

Revealing article on Clarkson's insight and planning, said post-game:
https://www.afc.com.au/news/2019-03-25/what-they-said-clarkson
Get this (my emphasis):
" Their midfield still had a lot of possession of the ball. The Crouch brothers and Sloane, they’re such high quality players and they’re always going to get the ball. But it’s how potent they can be when they get it in their hands. Adelaide found it hard to get the fluency inside-50, and to take marks and kick goals.

Certainly those goals out the back that Adelaide can quite often get, that gets them going, gets the crowd going, and they’re so hard to stop once they’re in that mode. They didn’t get any of those today and that was first class by a lot of our players today.

Sometimes it’s just how many guys of your team can play their role and chip in when it’s required and win some of those important moments in games which are just 50-50s and get the ball forward. We by and large did that better than Adelaide in today’s game."
Every other AFL coach is going to read that and go "Aha!", except Hardwick, who got the good oil before the 2017 GF.

You don't reckon every other side didn't know that already ?? Here's the scoop..... every side knows how every other one plays, it's about execution of said plan on the day.

 

[hey shorty]

we have too many butchers in the midfield. Crouch x2, Sloane, Gibbs, Jacobs all not good kicks. Add Greenwood to that list when fit.

it seems we like the chaos ball theory that if we just hack it forward we will get something happening inside 50.

Lol

 

[SugarShane]

Revealing article on Clarkson's insight and planning, said post-game:
https://www.afc.com.au/news/2019-03-25/what-they-said-clarkson
Get this (my emphasis):
" Their midfield still had a lot of possession of the ball. The Crouch brothers and Sloane, they’re such high quality players and they’re always going to get the ball. But it’s how potent they can be when they get it in their hands. Adelaide found it hard to get the fluency inside-50, and to take marks and kick goals.

Certainly those goals out the back that Adelaide can quite often get, that gets them going, gets the crowd going, and they’re so hard to stop once they’re in that mode. They didn’t get any of those today and that was first class by a lot of our players today.

Sometimes it’s just how many guys of your team can play their role and chip in when it’s required and win some of those important moments in games which are just 50-50s and get the ball forward. We by and large did that better than Adelaide in today’s game."
Every other AFL coach is going to read that and go "Aha!", except Hardwick, who got the good oil before the 2017 GF.

Knowing and doing are two different things though. Clarkson and the Hawks are just first rate at doing exactly what they set out to do. If someone like St Kilda or Gold Coast set out with Clarko's exact game plan/blueprint, it probably doesn't work because they're not the supremely drilled team that Hawthorn are.

 

[Slippery Pete]

we have too many butchers in the midfield. Crouch x2, Sloane, Gibbs, Jacobs all not good kicks.

I’d say all those guys are good to very good kicks (same with Douglas), but none of them are absolutely elite.

Look at most of the premiership teams in the last 20, and most of them had two, three, or even up to for four mids with elite disposal.

Hawthorn had them all the over the ground.

 

[CrowBloke]

That doesn't actually say much. No coach is taking anything away from it.

I should have used an emoji for the "other coaches" comment. This:
We all know about Clarko's meeting with Hardwick, plus Brad probably consulted Chris Scott (Geelong had the wood on us back then, too) before R7 in 2017, and several other coaches would have had similar plans.
Basically, what Clarkson said was that he'd analysed what the Crows do, how they score and how it gets them going, and came up with an (ugly, congested, high-pressure but effective) plan to overcome that. Then his players executed, brilliantly.

Instead of them playing "our game/ the Crows way", I'd like to see Pyke come up with plans to defeat teams by similar analysis, then player execution. We can't dish up the same game plan/style every week. It's too predictable and good teams with good coaches will figure out ways to beat us.
Personally, I loved the run-on, over-the-top, high-possession, kick-to-a-man game we used effectively in most of 2017. It copies Hawthorn's best. Players cannot be tackled after a mark, so let's mark the ball as much as possible. It requires a skill level that the Crows didn't have last week, because they fall apart under consistent pressure, and it requires space or at least for the Crows to create space by playing on as they did in the last quarter.
(Digression: look at the ways that Freo, Brisbane and even *shudder, hate to say it* Port Adelaide moved the ball to score last weekend)
Kudos to Clarkson/Hawthorn. It was smart, and effective.

 

[Murray2503]

I’d say all those guys are good to very good kicks (same with Douglas), but none of them are absolutely elite.

Look at most of the premiership teams in the last 20, and most of them had two, three, or even up to for four mids with elite disposal.

Hawthorn had them all the over the ground.

List management doesn't rate kicking. Apparently it's overrated. They rate the David Mackay type. Get onboard. Seriously, the skills at AFC have been deplorable for some time now. Has gone on since all of our guns players retired from the glory days. It's a combination of poor recruiting of good kicks and more importantly bad coaching. Obviously the coaching staff don't rate kicking as high as they should or don't know what they are doing as it has deteriorated after each preseason, especially under Pyke. What the **** are they doing in preseason? Meditating and Yoga? My memory may serve me incorrectly but i seem to recall under Sando in 2014 that our skills were at all time low but Walsh came in and said this was priority 1. I do remember marked improvement after his preseason in skill and all facets of our game. The point is we must prioritise disposal in recruitment which we haven't. We have picked some gems but the overriding theme is that under pressure our teams skill does not stand up. Clarko and all good coaches know this and that is why pressure defeats the crows every ****ing time. The other point is that our coaching is simply poor and needs a major upheaval end of the year. Would get rid of Campo, Hart and Don for starters.

 

[CrowBloke]

1) You don't reckon every other side didn't know that already ??
2) Here's the scoop..... every side knows how every other one plays

Your sarcasm is unnecessary .
1) I did not say that other coaches don't know that, so no. Take it up with Clarkson, not me. I was only quoting what he said.
2) I said in other posts that the Hawks executed, brilliantly.
You're probably right --- the Saints/Suns don't have the skills to sustain that kind of pressure as Hawthorn did.

Furthermore, I agree totally with this:

Knowing and doing are two different things though.

 

[marty36]

List management doesn't rate kicking. Apparently it's overrated. They rate the David Mackay type. Get onboard.

And even worse Keath

 

[thebirdman 24]

Lol

Matt Crouch is proficient at hitting short to medium targets but not overly damaging and not a good long kick.

Brad Crouch is a poor to average kick.

Sloane is a decent long kick but not great at hitting short targets.

Greenwood tends to hack it clear 9 times out of 10 and doesn't seem to hit many drop punts.

 

[marty36]

Matt Crouch is proficient at hitting short to medium targets but not overly damaging and not a good long kick.

Brad Crouch is a poor to average kick.

Sloane is a decent long kick but not great at hitting short targets.

Greenwood tends to hack it clear 9 times out of 10 and doesn't seem to hit many drop punts.

what about gibbs you mentioned gibbs

 

[thebirdman 24]

what about gibbs you mentioned gibbs

Similar to Sloane. I always had the impression from afar he was a silky kick but haven't seen much of that since we got him.

 

[Murray2503]

Matt Crouch is proficient at hitting short to medium targets but not overly damaging and not a good long kick.

Brad Crouch is a poor to average kick.

Sloane is a decent long kick but not great at hitting short targets.

Greenwood tends to hack it clear 9 times out of 10 and doesn't seem to hit many drop punts.

The good disposers in no particular order are smith, keath, milera. Seriously, I can't think of any more. Chip 20 metre kick experts we have a litany. MCrouch, Laird, Kelly, Atkins, Hartigan, Jacob's. I could go on for most of our team. Who is teaching them this shit? It's got to come from strategy and coaching.

 

[Murray2503]

Really?? It was clear at the time that the instigator of the departures was Clarkson. He invited several senior players in for a man-chat, and suggested that they might like to consider trying their luck elsewhere. Mitchell took the hint, Lewis took it belatedly. Clarko has also had the man-chat with Roughy this year: he's not a slave to sentiment.

It is very interesting to imagine what might happen right now if Clarko were the Crows' coach! Perhaps, several of the elderly suspects panned here would be called in for their man-chats?

Supporters like the man-chat. Players don't. Man chats seem to interrupt the Zen of the players causing an interruption of the chakras which ultimately leads to the energy flow being interrupted. Definite no no down at west lakes. More downward dog combined with meditation with a fresh hint of herbal oils infusing the atmosphere seems to work a treat. We can meditate our way to improving.

 

[Tex200]

I still don't get how the Hawks were such underdogs??

The over confidence on here was astonishing. Easy win by north of 6 goals.

The betting odds were equally remarkable.

All this for a game v a top 4 side from last year and who history confirms we have no clue how to play.

I was actually pretty happy to be within 9 at halftime.

2nd half was atrocious of course

 

[Brenton Davy]

I can't be bothered going back to find it but I do remember reading a post in this thread that Mackay's turnovers weren't his fault. They were good kicks but the person up the field was in the wrong spot which is why it went straight to a Hawthorn player. So keep that in mind.

Surely no one was dumb enough to post that - AND mean it...

Then again...

 

[MRB37]

The over confidence on here was astonishing. Easy win by north of 6 goals.

The betting odds were equally remarkable.

All this for a game v a top 4 side from last year and who history confirms we have no clue how to play.

I was actually pretty happy to be within 9 at halftime.

2nd half was atrocious of course

Lot of riding off the Hawks cause they lost Mitchell, though if I were to lose anyone i'd rather lose an inside accumulator than a key position player.

 

[Vader]

I should have used an emoji for the "other coaches" comment. This:
We all know about Clarko's meeting with Hardwick, plus Brad probably consulted Chris Scott (Geelong had the wood on us back then, too) before R7 in 2017, and several other coaches would have had similar plans.
Basically, what Clarkson said was that he'd analysed what the Crows do, how they score and how it gets them going, and came up with an (ugly, congested, high-pressure but effective) plan to overcome that. Then his players executed, brilliantly.

Instead of them playing "our game/ the Crows way", I'd like to see Pyke come up with plans to defeat teams by similar analysis, then player execution. We can't dish up the same game plan/style every week. It's too predictable and good teams with good coaches will figure out ways to beat us.
Personally, I loved the run-on, over-the-top, high-possession, kick-to-a-man game we used effectively in most of 2017. It copies Hawthorn's best. Players cannot be tackled after a mark, so let's mark the ball as much as possible. It requires a skill level that the Crows didn't have last week, because they fall apart under consistent pressure, and it requires space or at least for the Crows to create space by playing on as they did in the last quarter.
(Digression: look at the ways that Freo, Brisbane and even *shudder, hate to say it* Port Adelaide moved the ball to score last weekend)
Kudos to Clarkson/Hawthorn. It was smart, and effective.

Adelaide didn't allow Hawthorn to use their preferred gameplan either. Their preferred plan is to chip the ball around, with huge numbers of uncontested marks. That didn't happen on Saturday.

What happened on Saturday was that both teams & coaches were highly successful in disrupting the other team's game plan. However, Hawthorn were able to win "ugly", coping much better with the disruption. Adelaide failed to cope with having their game plan disrupted, and paid the penalty for not being good enough when Plan A failed.

 

[hey shorty]

Your sarcasm is unnecessary .
1) I did not say that other coaches don't know that, so no. Take it up with Clarkson, not me. I was only quoting what he said.
2) I said in other posts that the Hawks executed, brilliantly.
You're probably right --- the Saints/Suns don't have the skills to sustain that kind of pressure as Hawthorn did.

Furthermore, I agree totally with this:

Yep fair call, my apologies.

The Hawks pick players to suit their gameplans, not the other way around like most club do. This allows them to execute Clarksons instructions to a tee.

May sound simplistic, and of course Clarkson is a gem but it's easier than trying to train a gameplan that doesn't suit what you have.

We are somewhere in between. We drafted players for the plans that Pyke spoke about over summer, but we don't seem willing to play them.

 

[arrowman]

we have too many butchers in the midfield. Crouch x2, Sloane, Gibbs, Jacobs all not good kicks. Add Greenwood to that list when fit.

it seems we like the chaos ball theory that if we just hack it forward we will get something happening inside 50.

I don't know about "butchers" but we do lack precision passing into the F50 - either because the kickers aren't capable / are under too much pressure, or the receivers aren't leading to the right spaces.

I'm not averse to the "chaos ball" - not every I50 can be perfect / controlled - but it needs (IMO) to be deep and to a group of players who will pressure the contest in the air and on the ground. On Saturday our pressured I50s (and there were plenty of them) were going to about 40m out, and to a loose Hawks defender.

And just on kicking - one thing I noticed, early in the game at least, was how many Hawks forward kicks, even when under minimal pressure, were floaters /mongrels - and yet, they seemed to find a target. I was thinking "gee if they keep kicking like that, they're in trouble" but the problem was, we didn't manage to make it trouble for them.

 

[arrowman]

I can't be bothered going back to find it but I do remember reading a post in this thread that Mackay's turnovers weren't his fault. They were good kicks but the person up the field was in the wrong spot which is why it went straight to a Hawthorn player. So keep that in mind.

Surely no one was dumb enough to post that - AND mean it...

Then again...

I think that might have been me. I don't know why I bothered posting in clear English, with the qualification that although the example I used was a Mackay kick, it wasn't a defence of / about Mackay, because it seems that even when you write clearly some people don't read clearly.

I blame Mackay. The mere mention of his name turns reading comprehension skills to mush, apparently.