Roast Irrelevant man has a say.

[Baltimore Jack]

The main board has a thread trying to tell everyone that the Anzac Day game is little more than commercialised hype. People might not like Mick's suggestion that the game get shared around, but at least he is fully alive to the significance of the day and occasion of the game itself.

Its subjective though isn't it?

Sullen to some, commercial to others

Besides if you took the wider view, isn't expressing a view outside the mainstream, one of the things that so many died for?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

That's true but so is everyone else in Australia,or they should be.

No, people have a right to hold a different view

 

[Vicky Park]

No, people have a right to hold a different view

Different perspectives tend to be howled down on Anzac Day. And memories are short.

Many Irish Catholics in Australia in the early 20th century (my ancestors included and the community who helped found the Collingwood FC) did not support WWI, and did not want to participate in that conflict. Australia’s involvement was far from universally supported.

And in my time, I have had close relatives (WWII vets) and friends (Vietnam vets) who would have nothing to do with Anzac Day. Their preference was to stay at home, and remember their comrades with their own form of respect.

So there are alternative ways to reflect, respect and commemorate. Not everyone wants parades, and crowds, and noise, and...Essendon supporters!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Different perspectives tend to be howled down on Anzac Day. And memories are short.

Many Irish Catholics in Australia in the early 20th century (my ancestors included and the community who helped found the Collingwood FC) did not support WWI, and did not want to participate in that conflict. Australia’s involvement was far from universally supported.

And in my time, I have had close relatives (WWII vets) and friends (Vietnam vets) who would have nothing to do with Anzac Day. Their preference was to stay at home, and remember their comrades with their own form of respect.

So there are alternative ways to reflect, respect and commemorate. Not everyone wants parades, and crowds, and noise, and...Essendon supporters!

Exactly

If I were to express my honest views, I have no doubt I would be on the end of a hail of abuse and invective by the brainwashed mob who have neither studied history or understand it

But I will just say this:
There are on the record quotes from those that ran WW1 on the British side, to effect that "we will win because we can afford to lose more men than them"
Now just for a second, stop and think what that really means

 

[Markfs]

I think some of the nationalistic stuff during the Hawke and Howard years was to compensate for the terrible treatment of conscripts returning from the Vietnam war. I always saw australia's involvement as another step in our immersion into the role as an outpost of the US empire, but I never believed that the ordinary punters who were forced into conscription should be treated so badly. I think it permeated the whole of the ANZAC remembrance day thing and almost killed it off.... and I think some people wanted to turn that around and I believe that was a righteous thing to do. However, the ship has been more than just righted....some of the references made by various people during the many footy telecasts in and around the day, is increasingly overstepping what the day should be for.... at least i think so. These were blokes who generally signed up and were sometimes conscripted, and they did it for a number of reasons and protecting our freedom was generally was not the prime one. If we owe these men anything, it should be honesty. My grandfather stepped off a boat on this day 105 years ago and paid for it for the rest of his life. i'm just sad about that and that's what i remember.

 

[kallangur pie]

The masses who fight wars are not called cannon fodder for nothing but this is not a day for that,this is a solemn day to reflect on who went before and what sacrifices they made. This is not a day about religion or race but about a group of people many of whom made the ultimate sacrifice and they are fully deserving of our respect and admiration.

 

[Barham to Kink]

Exactly

If I were to express my honest views, I have no doubt I would be on the end of a hail of abuse and invective by the brainwashed mob who have neither studied history or understand it

But I will just say this:
There are on the record quotes from those that ran WW1 on the British side, to effect that "we will win because we can afford to lose more men than them"
Now just for a second, stop and think what that really means

There are many aspects of Anzac Day that are less than ideal. I will make a point of arriving at the game today after the pre-game entertainment. The thing I find most repugnant though is the handful of faux teenage anarchists who turn up at the march to heckle and boo. I suppose they are young, uneducated and unable to make the easy distinction between the war-makers and the millions of poor sods who left their entrails on the Western front and elsewhere.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

There are many aspects of Anzac Day that are less than ideal. I will make a point of arriving at the game today after the pre-game entertainment. The thing I find most repugnant though is the handful of faux teenage anarchists who turn up at the march to heckle and boo. I suppose they are young, uneducated and unable to make the easy distinction between the war-makers and the millions of poor sods who left their entrails on the Western front and elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you are making

But for me, I wish there were far more like those "teenage anarchists" because, IMV, if there were we might not find a need for days such as this

 

[sr36]

I grew up before Anzac Day was considered such a big thing, when it was looked upon like Remembrance Day: an occasion to reflect on the tragedy of war. This is how I still think of it, and as I get older the sacrifice of so many young men seems even more tragic to me. But the 'revival' of Anzac Day and its politicisation began well before the Howard years (1996-2007), and the institution of the Anzac Day game (1995) before the Howard government is one indicator of this.

I've mentioned in another post an interview that Malcolm Fraser gave a few years ago, where he talked about how odd it would have seemed if he had gone to Anzac Cove on Anzac Day during his leadership, and yet Bob Hawke during his prime ministership did just that. Those Hawke-Keating years coincided with a whole range of 50-year anniversaries from the Second World War, and Keating in particular invested quite a bit of politics --and taxpayer money-- in the remembrance of Anzac. He hardly ignored WWI (e.g. tomb of the unknown soldier), but his own emphasis was on WWII and Australia's engagement with the Asian region during that war, which also suited his broader political agenda at the time. No Prime Minister before Keating had talked more about Australia's war past and its importance to the present, and initiatives like the tomb of the unknown soldier and the 'Australia Remembers' campaign underscored the message.

None of this denies that Anzac was also used by Howard, who drew upon it for his own political purposes, but my point is that the changing nature of Anzac Day long precedes him. Maybe a few hundred people used to attend the dawn service at the Shrine in the early 1980s, but they were attending in their thousands before Howard became PM in 1996, which suggests to me that Australia's relationship to its war history had been changing for quite a while.




It's pretty hard to deny that the Anzac Day game is commercialised, but my own view is that the commercialisation of it doesn't diminish the occasion or render it meaningless. Cultural events can be exploited by commercial interests and yet remain culturally significant. For example, I'm one of those naive types who still thinks of football as something more than a profitable (for some) form of entertainment. I know people are making wads of cash from football, and the hype which accompanies their money-making rarely fails to nauseate me, and yet --in my worldview-- the Collingwood Football Club and the game itself manages to transcend this. The game remains 'more than a game'.

In a similar way, the promotional hype of Channel 7 shouldn't be allowed to define the significance of the Anzac Day game, and it doesn't define the importance and meaning of the occasion for the thousands of people who contribute to it. To put it another way, the significance of the Anzac Day game runs deeper than the hype which surrounds it.

Now it's time for coffee.

I defer to far greater wisdom. Please strike my petty unknowledgable anti-Howard snipe from the register.
I actually love the day now, solely because of this game of footy, but there's a nagging discomfort thatwe are benefitting from having turned a day that was very significant for the right reasons into a day that has become significant for the wrong reasons.

 

[good4footy]

For me i take part in as much as i can on the day. Not because I have been brainwashed by stories, nor the commercialism, nor political agenda, nor the footy but because the people who it is about take part. The remaining vets, the fallen's friends and family.

If it is good enough for them, it is good enough me. Despite not agreeing with the many aspects of the day it has become, I will back those that matter. So already today i have have had tears well up in my eyes hearing stories at the dawn service and felt solemn during the last post. For no other reason than those that sacrificed deserve my attention to the day.

 

[76woodenspooners]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...lls-for-anzac-day-match-to-be-shared/11029448

Mick makes some reasonable points ...

... he reckons it is a big day (it is) and the caring, sharing, charitable thing to do would be to let other clubs have a go too (it would be) ...

... and of course Essendon and us have between us a big bag of steamed dim sims with extra soy sauce and we ain’t wanna share it with nobody ...

... but I wonder if the ANZAC game would be the same occasion if it were 50,000 people going to the MCG to watch Bulldogs v St Kida? Or Hawthorn v Carlton? Or Melbourne v Suns?

I could maybe see one benefit to the AFL of getting some folks to the footy who nominally follow AFL but never go to games but would go to an ANZAC day game for the occasion ...

... but that’s like being told it would be good for my cholesterol if I shared my dim sims with others. And so I reach into the bag to grab another dim sim for myself, and I thoughtfully nod in agreement as I munch on the delicious soy sauce soaked morsel of delight.

 

[sr36]

You make fair points too JB.

But I cant bring myself to join in the hype, so this is the first Pies MCG game of 2019 that I wont be attending.

Plus I tend to get into arguments with Essendon supporters, which as a collective, I cant abide.

P.s. Go Pies!

I admire that If I wasn't so good at ignoring my conscience, I'd probably join you in shunning the hype, but I'll wait until a time that they're better than us, rather than when we're riding higher.

 

[JB1975]

You make fair points too JB.

But I cant bring myself to join in the hype, so this is the first Pies MCG game of 2019 that I wont be attending.

I'm not sure I see myself as joining the hype. Everyone thinks about things differently, from their own perspective, which is perhaps the most powerful thing about the one minute of silence. Having said that, I perfectly understand why the commercial and militaristic causes some unease among many, because I share that feeling.

Its subjective though isn't it?

Sullen to some, commercial to others

Besides if you took the wider view, isn't expressing a view outside the mainstream, one of the things that so many died for?

I haven't tried to suggest that people shouldn't express their views on things, not at all.

And yes, these things are subjective, and that was very much my point. Beyond that politicisation of remembrance, beyond the commercialisation of it, many or most simply want to respect the occasion as best they can, in their own way.

I defer to far greater wisdom. Please strike my petty unknowledgable anti-Howard snipe from the register.
I actually love the day now, solely because of this game of footy, but there's a nagging discomfort thatwe are benefitting from having turned a day that was very significant for the right reasons into a day that has become significant for the wrong reasons.

Very little wisdom my way, you can be assured!

 

[76woodenspooners]

I defer to far greater wisdom. Please strike my petty unknowledgable anti-Howard snipe from the register.
I actually love the day now, solely because of this game of footy, but there's a nagging discomfort thatwe are benefitting from having turned a day that was very significant for the right reasons into a day that has become significant for the wrong reasons.

One point of view is ...

... our ancestors fought (and many died) in support of our values and freedoms and way of life. So what better way to commemorate their risks and sacrifices than spend the day enjoying a symbol of our way of life?

I have a war memorial in the middle of the village I live in. They put a sign on it a number of years back telling kids to be respectful and stop playing on it. I was appalled. Our ancestors fought for freedoms and future, and what better symbol of that than having young kids harmlessly playing on a cenotaph? Surely that would make it far more relevant than having it a sad symbol of isolation being pooped on by birds day after day? Our ancestors didn’t fight for an authoritarianism symbolised by signs telling us what we should and shouldn’t do.

I know that’s the way my Grandfather (who fought) would have seen it.

 

[JB1975]

Different perspectives tend to be howled down on Anzac Day. And memories are short.

Many Irish Catholics in Australia in the early 20th century (my ancestors included and the community who helped found the Collingwood FC) did not support WWI, and did not want to participate in that conflict. Australia’s involvement was far from universally supported.

And in my time, I have had close relatives (WWII vets) and friends (Vietnam vets) who would have nothing to do with Anzac Day. Their preference was to stay at home, and remember their comrades with their own form of respect.

So there are alternative ways to reflect, respect and commemorate. Not everyone wants parades, and crowds, and noise, and...Essendon supporters!

My own family was Catholic and working class, and they weren't inclined to fight for Empire in WWI. More of them fought in WWII, but even then they had little time for the narrow conservatism of the RSL, and they stayed away from Anzac Day altogether. The pub was the place where they did their remembering.

I think it's unfortunate that these bigger and more complicated stories have been marginalised over the last few decades. A part of me thinks that a game of footy between two teams which have been around a while is a fitting tribute in its way, but there's no doubt that we have to work harder to remember the experiences which fall outside the dominant narrative.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Different perspectives tend to be howled down on Anzac Day. And memories are short.

Many Irish Catholics in Australia in the early 20th century (my ancestors included and the community who helped found the Collingwood FC) did not support WWI, and did not want to participate in that conflict. Australia’s involvement was far from universally supported.

Indeed, and much of that anti-war sentiment was translated into defeat of the conscription referendum (2 referenda if I remember my history?) If they had gotten up, we’d probably have a similar relationship with WW1 as what America have with the Vietnam war, and it’d be unlikely we’d even have an ANZAC day.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Firstly even though Mick is not everyone’s cup of tea, he was still a long term coach of our club.

He was a premiership coach of our club.

Not sure calling him “Irrelevant Man” in a thread title is becoming and appropriate on our board.
Makes us look small.

That said Mick is a strange individual. Maybe he can have a cup of tea with Kevin Rudd, Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull.
They can all compare notes together.
Funny group of sour grapes.

 

[Vicky Park]

We have moved away from the topic of the irrelevant man (why does he still irritate, like a sore that won’t go away?), but otherwise great discussion about today from different points of view and many perspectives. All valid.

To those going to the footy, enjoy and barrack hard. I hope Cox has a beauty. And I’ll catch the replay later.

Edit: posted before SV brought us back to topic.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Re war commemoration?

How do you pay tribute to brutal lethal war?
How do you honour the ultimate sacrifice?
How do you balance the conflicting emotions and vested interests?

Difficult.

Lest we forget.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

We have moved away from the topic of the irrelevant man (why does he still irritate, like a sore that won’t go away?), but otherwise great discussion about today from different points of view and many perspectives. All valid.

To those going to the footy, enjoy and barrack hard. I hope Cox has a beauty. And I’ll catch the replay later.

Edit: posted before SV brought us back to topic.

And then I went off piste too.

Mick I wonder if his ultra need to win any skirmish pushed him as well to coaching greatness?

 

[Scodog10]

I’m not a returned servicemen so I’d prefer they speak on the commercialisation of the day. What I feel I can comment on though is that the growth of ANZAC day over the past quarter of a century provides learning opportunities for the younger generations they may not have otherwise received.

On the comments of the most bitter man in AFL media all I can say is that raising it in the week of ANZAC is very poor from someone who has had the involvement in the day he has. The time to comment on this is October when the fixture is dealt with and until someone who is strongly opposed to Collingwood v Essendon on the day raises it then it will remain as is.

 

[good4footy]

MM like Barassi, Sheedy etc before him, move from the blinkered W/L and premierships to establish a legacy- to holding stakeholder views on the game to solidify their legacy.

Self interest is all it is.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

MM like Barassi, Sheedy etc before him, move from the blinkered W/L and premierships to establish a legacy- to holding stakeholder views on the game to solidify their legacy.

Self interest is all it is.

Fair observation.

Though only MM seems to do so with a degree off bitterness.

Ron Barassi is the most “attached” to Anzac Day as it were. His story is deeply imbedded to war, and service as his thatcher paid the ultimate sacrifice in the name of war. (Died serving in Tobruk.) A premiership player himself (1940) for Melbourne.
Then Ron became a de facto surrogate of Norm Smith, living with him, with the red fox being his “father” figure.
It is a fascinating story of our great sport.

 

[sr36]

I’m not a returned servicemen so I’d prefer they speak on the commercialisation of the day. What I feel I can comment on though is that the growth of ANZAC day over the past quarter of a century provides learning opportunities for the younger generations they may not have otherwise received.

On the comments of the most bitter man in AFL media all I can say is that raising it in the week of ANZAC is very poor from someone who has had the involvement in the day he has. The time to comment on this is October when the fixture is dealt with and until someone who is strongly opposed to Collingwood v Essendon on the day raises it then it will remain as is.

Good post, but the issue that some of us old fogies have isn't about whether there is a learning opportunity. It was always a fabulous learning opportunity. The issue is about whether we agree with the ethos and truth of many the messages that are being delivered and learnt. I do think sentiment is slowly moving away from the divisive Nationalist fervour that the lessons have become laced with, but it just can't move quickly enough for my liking.

 

[sr36]

Firstly even though Mick is not everyone’s cup of tea, he was still a long term coach of our club.

He was a premiership coach of our club.

Not sure calling him “Irrelevant Man” in a thread title is becoming and appropriate on our board.
Makes us look small.

That said Mick is a strange individual. Maybe he can have a cup of tea with Kevin Rudd, Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull.
They can all compare notes together.
Funny group of sour grapes.

Totally agree Saintly. Certainly a joyless old man, whose bitterness rankles, but we needed him at the time. We were a laughing stock that had the potential to become Carltonesque comedy when he arrived and his bitter combativeness played a big part in lifting us off the mat. He'll always be relevant from a Collingwood perspective.