Stopping the Tigers 2020

Milanista28 said:
Good marking teams hurt Richmond, contested marks halt their flow, you drop that ball then you'll lose the follow up contest more often than not.

Really fun team to watch play the tiges.
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Strong marking coupled with quick decision-making are the strongest abilities an opposition team can have to cut through Richmond’s pressure in my opinion. If you add a high contested possession-differential to that, then it usually is a comfortable win. Well, it would be for most teams anyway.

If you try to carry the ball by hand, kick to space, or attempt to play a marking game with slow decision-making, then you’ll invite Richmond’s pressure and speed to do its job. Many teams fall in this group because they are not marking sides or they are not quick decision-makers.

Bulldogs had contested marks of 19 to our 9 and a total of 134 to our 72 when they beat us. Adelaide have high marking differential every time we play them in AO lately and they tend to comfortably beat us there. West Coast in 2018 also controlled the ball in the air and moved it quickly, leaving us on the back foot. The same thing with Collingwood in the 2018 PF.

The only thing is that it is starting to become more difficult to do this to Richmond given that Richmond is becoming a taller side (especially in the middle and up forward). It was easier in 2017 as opposed to 2019, so I don’t know how effective this tactic is in 2020 if Richmond becomes solid in the air.
 
Lsta062 said:
The only thing is that it is starting to become more difficult to do this to Richmond given that Richmond is becoming a taller side (especially in the middle and up forward). It was easier in 2017 as opposed to 2019, so I don’t know how effective this tactic is in 2020 if Richmond becomes solid in the air.
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That would make the current game plan less effective though if the player are becoming taller - no more mosquito fleet to practice 'chaos ball' and keep it going forwards quickly at all costs. Like all flag sides, game plans change and tactics are modified as the personnel turn over - you cannot win flags just doing the same thing over and over. Will be interesting to see how Richmond approach 2020.
 
Lsta062 said:
Strong marking coupled with quick decision-making are the strongest abilities an opposition team can have to cut through Richmond’s pressure in my opinion. If you add a high contested possession-differential to that, then it usually is a comfortable win. Well, it would be for most teams anyway.

If you try to carry the ball by hand, kick to space, or attempt to play a marking game with slow decision-making, then you’ll invite Richmond’s pressure and speed to do its job. Many teams fall in this group because they are not marking sides or they are not quick decision-makers.

Bulldogs had contested marks of 19 to our 9 and a total of 134 to our 72 when they beat us. Adelaide have high marking differential every time we play them in AO lately and they tend to comfortably beat us there. West Coast in 2018 also controlled the ball in the air and moved it quickly, leaving us on the back foot. The same thing with Collingwood in the 2018 PF.

The only thing is that it is starting to become more difficult to do this to Richmond given that Richmond is becoming a taller side (especially in the middle and up forward). It was easier in 2017 as opposed to 2019, so I don’t know how effective this tactic is in 2020 if Richmond becomes solid in the air.
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Although I agree re the height of the team. I reckon the big thing is that from 2017 we gave teams teasing distance. So a good bit of quick decision making and kicking would isolate us and create space for that second or third kick to hit up someone deep in forward 50. We've worked on that. Geelong showed in the first half of the final that if you can control contested ball and control the structure and tempo of the game you will beat Richmond. The tigers altered their midfield set ups and broke down Geelong's game plan. In recent years we've been picking really solid inside mids. I reckon this is the reason. Solid contested units can cause the game to be played on the Tigers terms. Even if we don't win contests the ball becomes 'uncontrolled' which we love more than any other team. Graham and Ross are important there. And the rest of the midfield has adapted. Once the game is played in that 'messy' way then the kick and control style stops working. Then the Tiger's Achilles heel also doesn't appear.

But we've also added another ruck to the team which increases the ability to nullify an aerial game. Our taller forward line also causes problems in that teams have to play more talls deeper. And as you add talls our advantage in speed and repeat sprints increases.

End story, stopping the Tigers is straightforward. Just hard to do. Like stopping the Hawks in their prime was straightforward (pressure the ball carrier so that they couldn't move the ball cleanly). Just incredibly hard to do.

And Dimma et al have done things to limit our weakness. That those things mostly involve the contested midfield and not so much marking shows that the coaches are thinking in systems terms, not simple single factor terms. If teams can't consistently get clean ball and space to kick to advantage then the Tigers weakness just doesn't appear.

However, I'm sure that other coaches are taking the Tigers game plan apart and working out other ways to beat us. It'll happen. Just not for a few years I hope.
 
Forward Press said:
That would make the current game plan less effective though if the player are becoming taller - no more mosquito fleet to practice 'chaos ball' and keep it going forwards quickly at all costs. Like all flag sides, game plans change and tactics are modified as the personnel turn over - you cannot win flags just doing the same thing over and over. Will be interesting to see how Richmond approach 2020.
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refer my other post. How we've dealt with stopping the control the ball, kick, mark, kick, mark, kick game is to try and stop clean ball out of the contest. So teams rarely get that clean space to rip our defensive structures apart.

We've drafted and acquired players to do that (Ross, Graham, Meatball + guys in the VFL etc). Looking at who we have picked it seems like the club genuinely wants to stick with the same game plan, but sees a huge weakness that they have to address long term. The future RFC midfield will be much more a contested group that say 2017. And also a very high pressure outfit.
 
Do the Dew said:
Lost because their mids were strolling out of the middle under no pressure and were lacing it out. Was entirely due to the lack of midfield pressure and corresponding easy entries inside 50

Cox killed em! His head nod and Yankee swagger. If he can run and jump at the ball, extend his arms, he is reaching at closer to 10 or eleven feet. Get a body on him and then you will have a chance
On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Forward Press said:
That would make the current game plan less effective though if the player are becoming taller - no more mosquito fleet to practice 'chaos ball' and keep it going forwards quickly at all costs. Like all flag sides, game plans change and tactics are modified as the personnel turn over - you cannot win flags just doing the same thing over and over. Will be interesting to see how Richmond approach 2020.
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Yeah that is correct. It will mean that our pressure would reduce.
Maybe it would mean that we would improve against teams like West Coast, Collingwood and Geelong who like to retain possession but become worse against teams preferring a chaotic style. I agree, it is interesting to see how they approach 2020.
 
Dr Tigris said:
Although I agree re the height of the team. I reckon the big thing is that from 2017 we gave teams teasing distance. So a good bit of quick decision making and kicking would isolate us and create space for that second or third kick to hit up someone deep in forward 50. We've worked on that. Geelong showed in the first half of the final that if you can control contested ball and control the structure and tempo of the game you will beat Richmond. The tigers altered their midfield set ups and broke down Geelong's game plan. In recent years we've been picking really solid inside mids. I reckon this is the reason. Solid contested units can cause the game to be played on the Tigers terms. Even if we don't win contests the ball becomes 'uncontrolled' which we love more than any other team. Graham and Ross are important there. And the rest of the midfield has adapted. Once the game is played in that 'messy' way then the kick and control style stops working. Then the Tiger's Achilles heel also doesn't appear.

But we've also added another ruck to the team which increases the ability to nullify an aerial game. Our taller forward line also causes problems in that teams have to play more talls deeper. And as you add talls our advantage in speed and repeat sprints increases.

End story, stopping the Tigers is straightforward. Just hard to do. Like stopping the Hawks in their prime was straightforward (pressure the ball carrier so that they couldn't move the ball cleanly). Just incredibly hard to do.

And Dimma et al have done things to limit our weakness. That those things mostly involve the contested midfield and not so much marking shows that the coaches are thinking in systems terms, not simple single factor terms. If teams can't consistently get clean ball and space to kick to advantage then the Tigers weakness just doesn't appear.

However, I'm sure that other coaches are taking the Tigers game plan apart and working out other ways to beat us. It'll happen. Just not for a few years I hope.
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Yes I agree with that, great points. I think teams know what to do to stop us (we often lose a quarter comfortably) but the problem is doing it for at least 3 quarters. This is a fit side and they’ll run you off your feet and tire you through pressure if you can’t keep up.

Our midfield (especially inside) has indeed improved by a lot since 2017. We now have a bunch of inside kids that can fill a need when Cotchin and Dusty are rotated out.
 
All and good reading in what teams are going to do when they have the ball, but what are teams going to do when WE have the ball because this is when we destroy you.

There is no single gameplan that can bring down a team, it's how a team executes their own gameplan that goes towards winning the game but as soon as a team goes away from that and try to shutdown the opposition's gameplan then they are 95% on the way to losing that game.
 
Tiger Toffee said:
All and good reading in what teams are going to do when they have the ball, but what are teams going to do when WE have the ball because this is when we destroy you.

There is no single gameplan that can bring down a team, it's how a team executes their own gameplan that goes towards winning the game but as soon as a team goes away from that and try to shutdown the opposition's gameplan then they are 95% on the way to losing that game.
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That's the other side to it. Our game plan is designed around creating chaos and/or fast entries into forward 50. The problem with stopping that is that once we have the ball from a contested situation / intercept / defensive rebound we turn teams inside out. That is, our style forces teams to run towards our goals. Because we are almost certainly the best repeat sprint team in the AFL (certainly the stats I've seen during the season showed that) means that if we get that fast movement the opposition will run themselves ragged to stop us, and will be trapped inside the defensive area facing the wring way. Easy to deal with that, by putting players behind the ball. But then you cede the midfield to us. Then you lose anyway.

So the way to stop our attack is to control the ball - win contests and then kick mark, kick, mark. That also stuffs our defensive structure. So long as we can turn the game into a weird messy chaotic contest we will win (straight kicking at goal aside). That's why we've focused so heavily on contested beasts recently.

(And of course getting Tom Lynch meant that teams had to really structure up against quality talls, whilst trying to stop massive swarms of forward short people. And that also means Dusty gets the next in line. Lynch helped our game plan so much. We went and got the guy that added to our game style the most. But then every team tries to do that - if they've got half a brain)
 
Dr Tigris said:
That's the other side to it. Our game plan is designed around creating chaos and/or fast entries into forward 50. The problem with stopping that is that once we have the ball from a contested situation / intercept / defensive rebound we turn teams inside out. That is, our style forces teams to run towards our goals. Because we are almost certainly the best repeat sprint team in the AFL (certainly the stats I've seen during the season showed that) means that if we get that fast movement the opposition will run themselves ragged to stop us, and will be trapped inside the defensive area facing the wring way. Easy to deal with that, by putting players behind the ball. But then you cede the midfield to us. Then you lose anyway.

So the way to stop our attack is to control the ball - win contests and then kick mark, kick, mark. That also stuffs our defensive structure. So long as we can turn the game into a weird messy chaotic contest we will win (straight kicking at goal aside). That's why we've focused so heavily on contested beasts recently.

(And of course getting Tom Lynch meant that teams had to really structure up against quality talls, whilst trying to stop massive swarms of forward short people. And that also means Dusty gets the next in line. Lynch helped our game plan so much. We went and got the guy that added to our game style the most. But then every team tries to do that - if they've got half a brain)
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In the end who really cares, i couldn't give two shits what is the somehow best way to beat us. We're the best and it's up to other teams to knock us off and to that i say, good luck.

If teams want to put lots of energy into trying to stop us then i welcome it because i know 99% of the time we will win the game unless we are off our game which will happen because no team goes through a season undefeated.
 
Tiger Toffee said:
In the end who really cares, i couldn't give two shits what is the somehow best way to beat us. We're the best and it's up to other teams to knock us off and to that i say, good luck.

If teams want to put lots of energy into trying to stop us then i welcome it because i know 99% of the time we will win the game unless we are off our game which will happen because no team goes through a season undefeated.
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I reckon Dimma and Co have created a simple powerful game plan with a squad built to play it. Other teams haven't adapted fully as yet. SO yeah, when we play to our potential we beat everyone.

And we have been building the squad to deal with the weaknesses in what we do. So we're getting stronger. Hopefully we stay ahead of the pack for a few years more.
 
Tiger Toffee said:
All and good reading in what teams are going to do when they have the ball, but what are teams going to do when WE have the ball because this is when we destroy you.
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I was watching the Geelong final with my Essendon-supporting brother and he basically said this during the 3rd quarter. He said that Richmond become extremely problematic for opposition teams when Richmond have the ball, which I think is true.

It’s tough to stop a team that runs in waves and performs lethal handballs through the corridor to open up space like we do. They can keep this up for 3 or 4 quarters in a game.
 
Niggles said:
Yes you're right. They're actually further. Its scary TBH.

Bigfooty is not like real life. West coast supporters on bigfooty show their true colours when they don't get the bradbury every season. We've all seen how pathetic they are lately.
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Yeah, 33 years, 7 gfs, 4 wins, finals almost every year!! Pathetic but I will take it
 
Jez1974 said:
Yeah, 33 years, 7 gfs, 4 wins, finals almost every year!! Pathetic but I will take it
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Almost Every year aka. 7 times in the past 12 seasons (aka. a 58% strike rate)

I agree that West Coast is a very successful club-- but your exaggeration is getting ridiculous.
 
Mister M said:
Almost Every year aka. 7 times in the past 12 seasons (aka. a 58% strike rate)

I agree that West Coast is a very successful club-- but your exaggeration is getting ridiculous.
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I gf every 4 years on average. Not exaggerated!! 3 in the 90s, 2 in the next 10 and then 2 more!!
 
Jez1974 said:
I gf every 4 years on average. Not exaggerated!! 3 in the 90s, 2 in the next 10 and then 2 more!!
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How does 7 Grand Finals is 33 seasons (21.21%) equal 1 in 4 years (25%)?

I'd respect you if you focused on facts rather than exaggerating history.

If you just said "33 years, 7 gfs, 4 wins" I'd respect your opinion-- because it's true.

But saying you make a Grand Final every 4 years on average & make finals "almost every year" is exaggerating :rolleyes:
 
Mister M said:
How does 7 Grand Finals is 33 seasons (21.21%) equal 1 in 4 years (25%)?

I'd respect you if you focused on facts rather than exaggerating history.

If you just said "33 years, 7 gfs, 4 wins" I'd respect your opinion-- because it's true.

But saying you make a Grand Final every 4 years on average & make finals "almost every year" is exaggerating :rolleyes:
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It is an exaggeration but with a mild massaging of figures you can say 7 GFs in the past 28 years which is indeed 1 in 4.

Anyway the posturing about it is a bit bemusing. A flag from 1992 has no bearing as to whether we can win one in 2020.
 
LRobbo said:
I actually think Richmond are gettable through the middle.
Forward line pressure is elite but hard to maintain but defensively they are imposing and hard to structure up against due to all but Astbury being able to play multiple roles.

Dusty is the best player in the competition and it’s not a debate, but he blatantly refuses to run defensively, Cotchin been a warrior but his body looks to be going on him. Prestia is their best pure mid and a jet and goes both ways.

They are weak in the ruck, Soldo is a good athlete but the best rucks in the competition exploit him, Nankervis is a plodder.

You need a midfield of speed, inside and outside ball winners and goal kickers.

West Coast have that in spades, Geelong did but lost Kelly and is ageing badly (nearly cooked imo) Brisbane and Hawthorn are developing that and GWS have been handed that through concessions.

Richmond are the team to beat but I don’t think they are as far ahead of the rest as the media and some Tigers fans think.
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Great post, and I agree entirely.

Richmond have found themselves in an awesome spot due to a combination of factors: general recession following an era of several very strong teams including a dominant Hawthorn, a team containing 5-6 players all playing at their absolute peak - most noticeably Martin who is arguably the best player in the league currently, a core who were assembled in roughly the same period and have now played a huge amount of footy together, a charmed fixture which includes a significant number of games at the MCG, the Grand Final only being played at the MCG and of course some good luck along the way. (Also it had to be noted now average both of their Grand Final opponents were - GWS getting spanked by 89, and Adelaide missing the finals two years running shows how poor the comp has been the last few years)

They’ve made hail with the squad they’ve got and developed a game plan that holds up in finals and supports the team they are fielding each week (which happens to contain a number of average players, but largely papers over their various deficiencies), but they can be opened up on occasion, and other teams will undoubtably ticker with their game plans specifically to beat them.
 
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