Play Nice 46th President of the United States: Joe Biden 2: Incidit in scyllam cupiens vitare charybdim

[Rayzorwire]

This is a falsehood. Ukraine never invaded Crimea, it remained part of Ukraine following independence from the USSR.

I've already linked you several times to Western sources which confirm the facts on Crimea as I've outlined, why do you continue to insist that up is down?


in 1995 the Ukrainian parliament scrapped the Crimean Constitution, abolished the post of president on March 17 and moved to depose and exile Meshkov from the country.[11][12] Ukrainian special forces entered Meshkov's residence, disarmed his bodyguards and put him on a plane to Moscow.[13]

Yuriy Meshkov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Beautifully sanitised for Western consumption and minimal Ukrainian guilt (as all of Wikipedia has become since the 2022 rewrites) but there it is, the democratically elected president of the autonomous Crimean Republic, removed from office at gunpoint by the Ukrainian special forces, after which, Crimea no longer had the independence which had been agreed upon.

Provided to you with a sourced link, yet again.

For the last time.

 

[GreyCrow]

You've decided to completely avoid commenting on what the Democrats are doing and their continuing attack on civil liberties.

Seemingly, to set up another dozen-round bout of Butt Trumpet.

As I posted yesterday, there's already loads of policy positions in the mix from each potential candidate without them having really launched campaigns yet, and while others may be really interested in comparing and contrasting that for dozens, if not hundreds of hours in minutiae in order to establish that Biden is 2% less evil than Trump, I'm really not.

For starters, what Trump says and does are entirely different things, so you're already debating an ever-changing tangled mess of hypotheticals to sort out what he says his policy is and what he can realistically achieve. Then he'll shift the policy, or bury it in so much contradictory waffle you wish you'd never bothered starting to investigate what the hell he means.

We know exactly what Biden is going to provide, we've seen nearly 4yrs of creeping borderline fascism within the US and endless warmongering abroad.

Trump didn't do worse in his first term and I see no reason to automatically assume he would in a potential 2nd.

But Trump

You're the only person who brings Trump up

 

[Bloods86]

You've decided to completely avoid commenting on what the Democrats are doing and their continuing attack on civil liberties.

Seemingly, to set up another dozen-round bout of Butt Trumpet.

As I posted yesterday, there's already loads of policy positions in the mix from each potential candidate without them having really launched campaigns yet, and while others may be really interested in comparing and contrasting that for dozens, if not hundreds of hours in minutiae in order to establish that Biden is 2% less evil than Trump, I'm really not.

For starters, what Trump says and does are entirely different things, so you're already debating an ever-changing tangled mess of hypotheticals to sort out what he says his policy is and what he can realistically achieve. Then he'll shift the policy, or bury it in so much contradictory waffle you wish you'd never bothered starting to investigate what the hell he means.

We know exactly what Biden is going to provide, we've seen nearly 4yrs of creeping borderline fascism within the US and endless warmongering abroad.

Trump didn't do worse in his first term and I see no reason to automatically assume he would in a potential 2nd.

I conceded it as a break-even. It's bad (the warrantless queries), but you've stated that the alternative is better on this, when clearly that is a lie.

2% less evil, good god. How you consider yourself on the left and post this sort of stuff is beyond me.

You can try to hand wave Trump away, but that's ignoring the political reality that one of these men, barring unforeseen circumstances, will be President for another term. That is the context that Biden is being discussed in. It's a distinct minority that actually think he's the best option in general.

Convenient to factor in what Trump may not have the competency or legislature to fulfil, but give Biden no credit despite the obstacles he's faced from saboteurs in his party in achieving positive outcomes. Ignores what he (Trump) did fulfil.

Yes, yes, the warmongering. We know Trump is no different on Israel vs Palestine, or supporting nations committing war crimes. You can keep pretending there is an advantage here for him.

As for your characterisations re: Ukraine and Taiwan as warmongering, well, your positions and arguments are illogical. More "America bad" level analysis.

 

[Maggie5]

We both know you most certainly got far enough in to know that Genocide Joe isn't just innocently supplying Israel cash, as you asserted, he's supplying the actual bombs, with more on the way, to murder more innocent civilians, coz, y'know, 320,000 tonnes a couple of months back wasn't enough:


US President Joe Biden's administration is preparing to send arms to Israel even as Washington pushes for a ceasefire in Gaza, according to a report on Friday in the Wall Street Journal citing current and former American officials.

The planned weapons delivery includes MK-82 bombs and KMU-572 Joint Direct Attack Munitions that add precision guidance to bombs, as well as FMU-139 bomb fuses.

The value of the arms is estimated to be in the "tens of millions of dollars", according to the report.

US 'will continue to send weapons to Israel' while pushing for ceasefire

The planned weapons delivery comes as Israel prepares a ground invasion of Rafah, where 1.4 million displaced Palestinians are sheltering

www.middleeasteye.net

If you're perfectly OK spending your day running interference for a bloke actively facilitating genocide, mock anyone who dares criticise him for it, happy to play 'see no evil, hear no evil' no matter what level of human suffering you have to deliberately ignore, then that's your choice.

I made my point in one of the previous posts.

I am perfectly happy stating facts as I see them and also stating my opinion which is I don't agree with the USA sending billions of dollars to Israel but agree to the billions for Ukraine.

If you intend replying don't copy and paste anything or supply links as I won't read them.

 

[Rayzorwire]

I conceded it as a break-even. It's bad (the warrantless queries), but you've stated that the alternative is better on this, when clearly that is a lie.

Where did I ever say "better?"

In fact, if you read back, I said there's no meaningful difference.

2% less evil, good god. How you consider yourself on the left and post this sort of stuff is beyond me.

You can try to hand wave Trump away, but that's ignoring the political reality that one of these men, barring unforeseen circumstances, will be President for another term. That is the context that Biden is being discussed in.

Of course it's the context.

Trump is a professional clown of unprecedented proportions, but he didn't cause the death of hundreds of thousands of foreign citizens quite deliberately with his policies in the four years he was president.

Biden did and has.

You can argue that Trump would have done the same or whatever, but the fact is he didn't get America involved in any more wars and he pulled them out of one while president.

So I think it's fair to hypothesise that there's a solid chance Trump might not be directly responsible for the deaths of as many hundreds of thousands of people as Biden will be if either got another term.

If that's not a decent differentiation based on the proven records of both men, then what would you possibly accept?

Convenient to factor in what Trump may not have the competency or legislature to fulfil,

It's not convenience, it's cold hard logic.

To use one of many possible examples, if a right-wing demagogue lunatic says he's gonna build a border wall pre-election and I read several pieces of detailed, solid analysis which all agree that it will be financially impossible to ever complete, then I don't bother getting horrified about him ever completing it.

Joe might find a way to complete it, now that he's all done being horrified?

Yes, yes, the warmongering. We know Trump is no different on Israel vs Palestine, or supporting nations committing war crimes. You can keep pretending there is an advantage here for him.

Over half a million dead Ukrainian soldiers and civilians are very much in my counting.

Trump's been making his position on that clear for years, so in all likelihood, those men, women and children would still be alive if he'd won in 2020.

As for your characterisations re: Ukraine and Taiwan as warmongering, well, your positions and arguments are illogical. More "America bad" level analysis.

More 'I could totally smash your arguments on all these things, but instead I'll insult you' level posting.

 

[Bloods86]

Where did I ever say "better?"

In fact, if you read back, I said there's no meaningful difference.

Short memory

As someone who would be very much classified as politically from the 'far-left', over recent years I've increasingly found myself in the bizarre situation of having to decide that sometimes I'm gonna have to hold my nose and support a particular policy or stance from a 'far-right' candidate, because they are the only one standing up for a fundamental principle of democracy.

The faux, corporate captured 'left-wing' major parties, are increasingly behaving in ways that are decidedly undemocratic.

And there is a lot of that kind of going on in the US if you watch this 'civil rights' topic closely. Just from recent days...

Then you posted clips about the extension of the warrant-less surveillance program, while also conveniently leaving out any Democratic opposition, which exists. I'm not sure how you can expect people to believe you if you're now saying you meant "no meaningful difference".

Trump is a professional clown of unprecedented proportions, but he didn't cause the death of hundreds of thousands of foreign citizens quite deliberately with his policies in the four years he was president.

Biden did and has.

You can argue that Trump would have done the same or whatever, but the fact is he didn't get America involved in any more wars and he pulled them out of one while president.

Probably need some citations on these. We both are dismayed at the Biden administration's failure and unwillingness to reign Israel in. But, it's sheer dishonesty to ignore Trump's disregard for Palestine and his support for other nations committing war crimes.

Biden's policies did not cause Russia to invade Ukraine, nor have they been obstacles in providing Ukraine with a "peace" that you imagine they could have had if they'd simply offered their land, their people and any expectations over their future safety up just to satisfy a warmongering authoritarian regime. A regime which admitted themselves that a formal peace deal was not close (where you imagine it was scuttled at the last minute by external pressure), has shown they are not remotely trustworthy in keeping agreements, and likely to just invent new propaganda for justifying the next conflict.

Trump did not pull out of Afghanistan, Biden did, and if said war was over, we would have had a very different outcome post-withdrawal.

Over half a million dead Ukrainian soldiers and civilians are very much in my counting.

Trump's been making his position on that clear for years, so in all likelihood, those men, women and children would still be alive if he'd won in 2020.

Naivety in its finest. You tellingly ignore the invader and blame those who stand with the invaded. It's possible that some Ukrainians would be alive, that are not now, in the hypothetical you pose. Others may not be. If Russia was left unchecked, you would have unknown numbers dead, kidnapped, ethnically cleansed. At the very least, Ukraine would be under the thumb of an authoritarian regime. Something that sovereign nation did not and still will not accept, and outside of some who are morally bankrupt, it is good to see the US and many others supporting them.

More 'I could totally smash your arguments on all these things, but instead I'll insult you' level posting.

No, I don't need to. It's been done by many others, and myself, in this thread and the War in Ukraine thread, so I don't have to re-hash it all in depth. I just need to summarise it.

 

[bourbons]

Over half a million dead Ukrainian soldiers and civilians are very much in my counting.

Trump's been making his position on that clear for years, so in all likelihood, those men, women and children would still be alive if he'd won in 2020.

So not only would they still be alive if Trump had won, but those deaths are actually all Biden's fault as well.

Unreal

 

[Saint]

Dislike Trump as much as you like, but the GOP and Biden himself have done a good job of making Biden look impotent on the international stage.

They deny Biden money for Ukraine so it looks like he can't stand up to Putin.

He sits on the fence about Israel and makes empty threats which Israel doesn't even take seriously enough to pretend to listen to him.

He's physically incapable of making a rousing speech or clearly articulating a position with conviction.

A lot of money will come for Trump in the lead-up to the election. Everyone knows he can be bought.

Biden on the other hand, will be unlikely to see out the term as well as being incapable of achieving anything, so what's the point in donating to his campaign?

 

[happy_eagle]

Dislike Trump as much as you like

Ok, thanks

 

[Saint]

Ok, thanks

I'm just saying the buffoon is going to win against Biden who is not in the same shape as he was prior to the last election. I thought his age and condition was over-stated in 2020, but he's deteriorated since then.

You can get better than $3 for Biden to win, which is better than you could have got for Trump in 2020. (I just had a good bet because I'm confident it will be wound in as polls turn mid-year at the start of the election).

 

[Trouto]

I've already linked you several times to Western sources which confirm the facts on Crimea as I've outlined, why do you continue to insist that up is down?


in 1995 the Ukrainian parliament scrapped the Crimean Constitution, abolished the post of president on March 17 and moved to depose and exile Meshkov from the country.[11][12] Ukrainian special forces entered Meshkov's residence, disarmed his bodyguards and put him on a plane to Moscow.[13]

Yuriy Meshkov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Beautifully sanitised for Western consumption and minimal Ukrainian guilt (as all of Wikipedia has become since the 2022 rewrites) but there it is, the democratically elected president of the autonomous Crimean Republic, removed from office at gunpoint by the Ukrainian special forces, after which, Crimea no longer had the independence which had been agreed upon.

Provided to you with a sourced link, yet again.

For the last time.

facts dont matter to some people.

 

[GreyCrow]

He's physically incapable of making a rousing speech or clearly articulating a position with conviction.

I disagree

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/05/politics/biden-democracy-trump-2024-speech

A lot of money will come for Trump in the lead-up to the election. Everyone knows he can be bought.

From dumb folk who cant afford a meal but can buy shoes

His target money pit is not rich donors but everyday folk . Not once not twice but day after day after day and he makes them feel guilty for not doing so . Yer either with us or agin us

Biden on the other hand, will be unlikely to see out the term as well as being incapable of achieving anything, so what's the point in donating to his campaign?

At 77 I find it also unlikely Trump sees out his term. His health must be teetering from adderall addiction to cholesterol blockage to syphillis

If he makes it to November then kudos to his Dr Feelgoods

 

[Trouto]

Biden's policies did not cause Russia to invade Ukraine, nor have they been obstacles in providing Ukraine with a "peace" that you imagine they could have had if they'd simply offered their land, their people and any expectations over their future safety up just to satisfy a warmongering authoritarian regime. A regime which admitted themselves that a formal peace deal was not close (where you imagine it was scuttled at the last minute by external pressure), has shown they are not remotely trustworthy in keeping agreements, and likely to just invent new propaganda for justifying the next conflict.

Yes it did - well actually, it went back to Obama's policy in 2014 to instigate the coup and put the US's choice, Yatseniuk, into the Presidency. They (the USA) had been working with the Ukraine opposition since the early 2000's but on Obama's watch is when we saw the coup. None of this is hard to find out, Victoria Newland (* the EU) was caught on tape before the coup discussing who was going to be president after the coup. Then after the coup, she holds a press conference and proudly states the USA had invested 5 billion 'promoting democracy' in Ukraine.

And if you think the war in Ukraine started in 2022, there are plenty who disagree with you. One example would be NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, who in a speech said "the war didn't start in February last year. It started in 2014". After the coup in 2014, Russia initiated the Minsk I Agreement in 2014 and when it failed, the Minsk II Agreement in 2015. Later, in 2022, German Chancellor Angela Merkel stated both of the Agreements were a ploy to allow time for Ukraine to buff its armed forces and allow Western countries to arm them better to fight Russia.

Then in January 2022, Biden ramped up military funding to Ukraine. This along with the moves to allow Ukraine to join NATO is what tipped Russia over to invade. Russia comes in and very quickly surrounds Kiev. Then they fully pull out all their troops surrounding Kiev. They did this to allow more talks for a cease fire which the Ukrainians were keen on, until Boris Johnston flew over to Kiev to tell them not to ceasefire.

Does any of this sound like Biden and the West want the Ukraine war to stop? Multiple times Russia has tried to end the war and cease the killings, only to be thwarted by the West. Yet we are told in the media that the war was an "unprovoked" attack by Russia.

Trump on the other hand, has said "i'll stop the war in 24-hours". Yet people think he is a warmongering psycho cos he has a toupee and orange skin.

 

[GreyCrow]

Trump on the other hand, has said "i'll stop the war in 24-hours". Yet people think he is a warmongering psycho cos he has a toupee and orange skin.

Thats the one thing never said about Trump.

He is that brave he runs away from a fight knowing his bone spurs will flare up

 

[Trouto]

Thats the one thing never said about Trump.

He is that brave he runs away from a fight knowing his bone spurs will flare up

I have no qualms about someone not wanting to slaughter other people, even lying about some fake injury to avoid it. There is no way I would have ever been drafted. I would rather go to jail. Drafting people to go kill poor people in other countries for Imperialistic goals is not my cup of tea...

and plenty of tools prior to 2016 parroted "once Trump gets into office do you trust him with the nukes"

 

[Maggie5]

Yes it did - well actually, it went back to Obama's policy in 2014 to instigate the coup and put the US's choice, Yatseniuk, into the Presidency. They (the USA) had been working with the Ukraine opposition since the early 2000's but on Obama's watch is when we saw the coup. None of this is hard to find out, Victoria Newland (* the EU) was caught on tape before the coup discussing who was going to be president after the coup. Then after the coup, she holds a press conference and proudly states the USA had invested 5 billion 'promoting democracy' in Ukraine.

And if you think the war in Ukraine started in 2022, there are plenty who disagree with you. One example would be NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, who in a speech said "the war didn't start in February last year. It started in 2014". After the coup in 2014, Russia initiated the Minsk I Agreement in 2014 and when it failed, the Minsk II Agreement in 2015. Later, in 2022, German Chancellor Angela Merkel stated both of the Agreements were a ploy to allow time for Ukraine to buff its armed forces and allow Western countries to arm them better to fight Russia.

Then in January 2022, Biden ramped up military funding to Ukraine. This along with the moves to allow Ukraine to join NATO is what tipped Russia over to invade. Russia comes in and very quickly surrounds Kiev. Then they fully pull out all their troops surrounding Kiev. They did this to allow more talks for a cease fire which the Ukrainians were keen on, until Boris Johnston flew over to Kiev to tell them not to ceasefire.

Does any of this sound like Biden and the West want the Ukraine war to stop? Multiple times Russia has tried to end the war and cease the killings, only to be thwarted by the West. Yet we are told in the media that the war was an "unprovoked" attack by Russia.

I haven't seen the 'Multiple times Russia has tried to end the war and cease the killings'.

Trump on the other hand, has said "i'll stop the war in 24-hours". Yet people think he is a warmongering psycho cos he has a toupee and orange skin.

Nah, that isn't why some of us think he is a warmongering psycho. He is just a plain coward psycho.

 

[Trouto]

I haven't seen the 'Multiple times Russia has tried to end the war and cease the killings'.

That's because the media conveniently doesnt mention them. Minsk I, Minsk II and the 2022 talks were all attempts to stop the fighting - something the Russians wanted and the West didnt.

Last time i checked, 3 was 'multiple'.

 

[Trouto]

Nah, that isn't why some of us think he is a warmongering psycho. He is just a plain coward psycho.

A coward psycho leading the USA is ideal to every other country in the world.... much better than a warmongering psycho

 

[Crow54]

Biden on the other hand, will be unlikely to see out the term as well as being incapable of achieving anything, so what's the point in donating to his campaign?

Joe Biden's reelection campaign raises $97 million in 4th quarter, giving him a record war chest​

"Biden's fourth-quarter haul, which includes money raised between Oct. 1 and the end of the year, was bolstered by the campaign's strongest fundraising month yet in December. Biden has now raised $235 million since announcing his reelection bid in April from nearly 1 million donors. The campaign says 97% of donations have been less than $200, with an average contribution of $41.88."

Joe Biden's reelection campaign raises $97 million in 4th quarter, giving him a record war chest

The Biden campaign said it expects the $97 million raised in the fourth quarter of last year will "lap" the Republican field in fundraising.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Trouto]

Joe Biden's reelection campaign raises $97 million in 4th quarter, giving him a record war chest​

"Biden's fourth-quarter haul, which includes money raised between Oct. 1 and the end of the year, was bolstered by the campaign's strongest fundraising month yet in December. Biden has now raised $235 million since announcing his reelection bid in April from nearly 1 million donors. The campaign says 97% of donations have been less than $200, with an average contribution of $41.88."

Joe Biden's reelection campaign raises $97 million in 4th quarter, giving him a record war chest

The Biden campaign said it expects the $97 million raised in the fourth quarter of last year will "lap" the Republican field in fundraising.

www.usatoday.com

Biden. putting the 'war' in 'war chest'

 

[bourbons]

Yes it did - well actually, it went back to Obama's policy in 2014 to instigate the coup and put the US's choice, Yatseniuk, into the Presidency.

Oh yes? Geez they're good, how did they rig that particular election?

None of this is hard to find out, Victoria Newland (* the EU) was caught on tape before the coup discussing who was going to be president after the coup. Then after the coup, she holds a press conference and proudly states the USA had invested 5 billion 'promoting democracy' in Ukraine.

Nuland was caught on tape discussing who the US would prefer if they had their druthers.

How did they brainwash Ukrainians into actually voting for the winner?

Russia comes in and very quickly surrounds Kiev. Then they fully pull out all their troops surrounding Kiev. They did this to allow more talks for a cease fire which the Ukrainians were keen on, until Boris Johnston flew over to Kiev to tell them not to ceasefire.

Uh huh. Just like Vlad drew it up eh?

 

[bourbons]

I have no qualms about someone not wanting to slaughter other people, even lying about some fake injury to avoid it. There is no way I would have ever been drafted. I would rather go to jail. Drafting people to go kill poor people in other countries for Imperialistic goals is not my cup of tea...

I err... think you might be projecting a slightly more principled rationale onto Donnie's actions than was actually the case, to put it mildly

 

[Chief]

I have no qualms about someone not wanting to slaughter other people, even lying about some fake injury to avoid it. There is no way I would have ever been drafted. I would rather go to jail. Drafting people to go kill poor people in other countries for Imperialistic goals is not my cup of tea...

He loves soldiers who don't get caught.

 

[Trouto]

Oh yes? Geez they're good, how did they rig that particular election?


Nuland was caught on tape discussing who the US would prefer if they had their druthers.

How did they brainwash Ukrainians into actually voting for the winner?


Uh huh. Just like Vlad drew it up eh?

what are you talking about, elections? After the coup in Feb 2014 he was installed as leader...

So because you dislike Putin, you dont want him to discuss peace? You would rather keep the war going and not come to terms? How very tolerant of you

 

[Trouto]

He loves soldiers who don't get caught.

this is true....