Society/Culture Notional Take Back Australia Day

[Gethelred]

I wouldn't have thought so, my basic point to demondavey is that you can't just imply all white people are racist or that only white people are racist. That seems to be a favourite go to for many posters here. It's counterproductive to discussion.

demondavey's posting in here reflects a different definition to racism to how you usually view the world; specifically, it reflects the history of racial inequality and structures built from generations of racist policy designed to discriminate. It's a conversation you and I have had before, built around the differences between positive and negative liberty. The reason why you can't accept it is rooted in your unwillingness to accept what the logic that follows here:

I don't disagree that this country (which btw doesn't imply all) has been complicit in the very racist treatment of first nations people.

... would suggest to you: that generations of racist policy have left emotional scars on first nations - for the purposes of this discussion; we could do similar analysis related to asian immigration here, as fear of the Yellow Peril is deeply entrenched within Australia's history - whilst failing to correct and further entrenching economic inequalities has led to things either plateauing or getting worse, all the while pretending things are fine.

Take the following section, for example:

However I refuse to take 'blame' for the past, as is inferred (all white people) ad nauseum on these boards. I had nothing to do with any of that.

You acknowledge that awful things have been done to first nations; were we to go through the history policy by policy, you'd be perfectly happy to admit to Policy X having Effect Y, which was racist. The problem is that you're unwilling to follow this logic through time; as though racism is in the moment, in the act, not something whose effect can build up/accumulate over time.

Obviously that is not the point I'm making though.

You are arguing A: that you are not personally culpable for the Stolen Generation or racism towards immigrants, because you've not engaged in such towards them. demondavey is arguing B: that racism results from society's treatment of minorities over time, and as a consequence it is difficult to impossible to be racist towards white people in a situation where white people are considered to be the default.

You're arguing past each other, and this is because you're both not really enunciating the differences in your positions.

 

[campbell]

I wouldn't have thought so, my basic point to demondavey is that you can't just imply all white people are racist or that only white people are racist. That seems to be a favourite go to for many posters here. It's counterproductive to discussion.

I don't disagree that this country (which btw doesn't imply all) has been complicit in the very racist treatment of first nations people. However I refuse to take 'blame' for the past, as is inferred (all white people) ad nauseum on these boards. I had nothing to do with any of that.

Obviously that is not the point I'm making though.

Sadly, I have no words.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You're arguing past each other, and this is because you're both not really enunciating the differences in your positions.

That's what I was pointing out. I totally understand that 'us' as a society have been complicit in bad things, but if you (not you) imply that now all 'white people' should feel guilty just coz you're white (as was clearly implied) then that's just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your post, you know and I know that i'm fully aware.

However that does not equate that every single white person should apply guilt to themselves just coz they're white.

 

[Gethelred]

That's what I was pointing out. I totally understand that 'us' as a society have been complicit in bad things, but if you (not you) imply that now all 'white people' should feel guilty just coz you're white (as was clearly implied) then that's just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your post, you know and I know that i'm fully aware.

However that does not equate that every single white person should apply guilt to themselves just coz they're white.

This is funny, because you're just so, so close to agreement. I'm wearing you down!

'Guilt' is not what is implied by the idea that you possess privilege borne from a racist past. First Nations are not owed your guilt, because feeling personally guilty does nothing to address the century and more of disadvantage. What they are owed are our best efforts to put it as right as we can over time; doing more than dismantling the racist laws themselves and calling it job done.

This is the final hurdle for a post racist society, but it's one hell of a hurdle. We essentially need to undo the centuries of inbuilt racial disadvantage and trauma to clear it. It's not the task of one lifetime, and it's not the task of individuals; we, all of us, owe it not only to the First Nations, but to ourselves to try and right what remains our most grievious sin as a people and a nation.

Until we do, the idea of Australia will always remain a hypocritical dream.

 

[Carringbush2010]

'Guilt' is not what is implied

Well I'm not a mind reader, but heck that's the impression given. Surely I could be forgiven for thinking that's the implication.

If that's my wrong interpretation then guilty as charged, however unless you or I can read the minds of posters on here, then that'll always be an unknown.

It's not the task of one lifetime, and it's not the task of individuals; we, all of us, owe it not only to the First Nations, but to ourselves to try and right what remains our most grievious sin as a people and a nation.

Absolutely, but that takes an all buy in, problem is that a small minority that refuse to.

Forever the optimist and moreso realist, I can't see how this country is 'racist' < not the whole country, if that were the case we'd be living in a very dystopian society. I don't see that.

 

[Gethelred]

Well I'm not a mind reader, but heck that's the impression given. Surely I could be forgiven for thinking that's the implication.

If that's my wrong interpretation then guilty as charged, however unless you or I can read the minds of posters on here, then that'll always be an unknown.

Absolutely, but that takes an all buy in, problem is that a small minority that refuse to.

Forever the optimist and moreso realist, I can't see how this country is 'racist' < not the whole country, if that were the case we'd be living in a very dystopian society. I don't see that.

I suppose the question here is: is there anything being done to minorities by government, business or private citizens, that are not being done to the majority, and/or are there any advantages for the white majority that are not available for anyone else?

If your answer is yes in either case, the country is still racist.

 

[demondavey]

The fact that you think racism in this country is driven solely by white people (and you implied all) is not borderline naive, it is naive

So not all white people, that's all you had to say.

Who thankfully are very much a minority

Like I said, past history over half a century ago doesn't apply

No, it doesn't, if you wanna say some white people then just say it. That fly's, implying all white people certainly does not.

Well given white Australians have governed the majority of decision making processes politically, socially, economically and commercially, and also set in the foundations of which white Australia was built, I am confident in saying racism (the majority) stems from white Australians.

What’s naive is thinking non white Australians drive any form of racist agenda worth anything.

I didn’t mean to imply all white people, however I am not wavering on them being a massive issue.

 

[demondavey]

demondavey's posting in here reflects a different definition to racism to how you usually view the world; specifically, it reflects the history of racial inequality and structures built from generations of racist policy designed to discriminate. It's a conversation you and I have had before, built around the differences between positive and negative liberty. The reason why you can't accept it is rooted in your unwillingness to accept what the logic that follows here:

... would suggest to you: that generations of racist policy have left emotional scars on first nations - for the purposes of this discussion; we could do similar analysis related to asian immigration here, as fear of the Yellow Peril is deeply entrenched within Australia's history - whilst failing to correct and further entrenching economic inequalities has led to things either plateauing or getting worse, all the while pretending things are fine.

Take the following section, for example:

You acknowledge that awful things have been done to first nations; were we to go through the history policy by policy, you'd be perfectly happy to admit to Policy X having Effect Y, which was racist. The problem is that you're unwilling to follow this logic through time; as though racism is in the moment, in the act, not something whose effect can build up/accumulate over time.

You are arguing A: that you are not personally culpable for the Stolen Generation or racism towards immigrants, because you've not engaged in such towards them. demondavey is arguing B: that racism results from society's treatment of minorities over time, and as a consequence it is difficult to impossible to be racist towards white people in a situation where white people are considered to be the default.

You're arguing past each other, and this is because you're both not really enunciating the differences in your positions.

My position is enunciated. It’s not ambiguous. You’ve summed it up pretty well.

 

[demondavey]

That's what I was pointing out. I totally understand that 'us' as a society have been complicit in bad things, but if you (not you) imply that now all 'white people' should feel guilty just coz you're white (as was clearly implied) then that's just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your post, you know and I know that i'm fully aware.

However that does not equate that every single white person should apply guilt to themselves just coz they're white.

I never said white people today should feel guilty. If you’re not racist then why feel the guilt? Can you direct me to where I stated that?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I suppose the question here is: is there anything being done to minorities by government, business or private citizens, that are not being done to the majority, and/or are there any advantages for the white majority that are not available for anyone else?

If your answer is yes in either case, the country is still racist.

Not on an individual level. That's a very nuanced area.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I never said white people today should feel guilty

You gave the impression you implied it though.

If you’re not racist then why feel the guilt?

What guilt? I don't and shouldn't feel guilty.

That doesn't mean you should imply that every white person racist, if that's not what you're saying then be clear - don't broadbrush.

Can you direct me to where I stated that?

You've claimed many times, even going into detail about how '(white)society' (which infers everyone who is white) has been complicit in mistreatment of minority groups.

Like I've said to you before, if it's not everyone then be clear in what you're stating.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well given white Australians have governed the majority of decision making processes politically, socially, economically and commercially, and also set in the foundations of which white Australia was built, I am confident in saying racism (the majority) stems from white Australians.

What’s naive is thinking non white Australians drive any form of racist agenda worth anything.

I didn’t mean to imply all white people, however I am not wavering on them being a massive issue.

'But what I meant was......'

There is where discussion breaks down, for some your language implies all, not just myself.

Of course there are some people who ARE.

Again, be clear in what you're saying, not just 'white people', you've gotta add context.

I don't disagree, that some (likely a very small percentile) white people are the main drivers of racism compared to other sections of the community, that's not what I'm pointing out to you and you don't need to tell me, I'm well aware.

 

[demondavey]

'But what I meant was......'

There is where discussion breaks down, for some your language implies all, not just myself.

Of course there are some people who ARE.

Again, be clear in what you're saying, not just 'white people', you've gotta add context.

I don't disagree, that some (likely a very small percentile) white people are the main drivers of racism compared to other sections of the community, that's not what I'm pointing out to you and you don't need to tell me, I'm well aware.

The fact you think a very small percentile of white people are racist just shows how out of touch you are. I’ve been clear. Explicitly. My view given the current landscape we live in is that there is a majority of white Australians that are racist.

 

[demondavey]

You gave the impression you implied it though.

What guilt? I don't and shouldn't feel guilty.

That doesn't mean you should imply that every white person racist, if that's not what you're saying then be clear - don't broadbrush.

You've claimed many times, even going into detail about how '(white)society' (which infers everyone who is white) has been complicit in mistreatment of minority groups.

Like I've said to you before, if it's not everyone then be clear in what you're stating.

I am white and I don’t feel personal guilt, I feel disappointment towards my white ancestors for their behaviour. I vote in ways to demonstrate my support to minorities.

Now you’re really going around in circles. I never said ‘every white person is racist’ - this is you putting words in my mouth. I’ll engage with you but seriously, don’t start on that given I’ve used ‘majority’ rather ‘every’.

Again, an ‘inference’ that all of white society is racist. The term white society denotes a majority to which I feel confident isn’t very tolerant. If you can’t discern the difference or feel the need to constantly nit pick every statement without using some perspective then I can’t help you.

 

[demondavey]

Not on an individual level. That's a very nuanced area.

What do you mean? It is on an individual level because broad level racism filters down to individuals.

 

[demondavey]

I wouldn't have thought so, my basic point to demondavey is that you can't just imply all white people are racist or that only white people are racist. That seems to be a favourite go to for many posters here. It's counterproductive to discussion.

I don't disagree that this country (which btw doesn't imply all) has been complicit in the very racist treatment of first nations people. However I refuse to take 'blame' for the past, as is inferred (all white people) ad nauseum on these boards. I had nothing to do with any of that.

Obviously that is not the point I'm making though.

You seriously need a lesson in history in this country. Going back 70-80 years and the racism towards the indigenous was pretty much embedded in society. Sure, not EVERY SINGLE person was racist or awful, however given the cultural, social, political and economic attitude HOLISTICALLY towards the indigenous, this implied severe racism. All you need is the majority to lean on way and you’ve got the margin. I am sure Peter Dutton had some voters in his electorate that supported him in the last election, but the majority spoke and he was ousted. Example; the majority spoke and the majority influenced the outcome.

Do you want me to paw the ground and give you individual names of the non racist white people in every voting electorate? Come on. Seriously. You’re now literally trying to justify racism wasn’t as bad as you think because ‘not all’ white people were racist.

Stop being ignorant and dismissive.

 

[Kram]

The fact you think a very small percentile of white people are racist just shows how out of touch you are. I’ve been clear. Explicitly. My view given the current landscape we live in is that there is a majority of white Australians that are racist.

Yeah this just embarrassing rubbish, it's not the 1970s anymore.

 

[demondavey]

Yeah this just embarrassing rubbish, it's not the 1970s anymore.

Bullshit. It’s everywhere still.

 

[Kram]

Bullshit. It’s everywhere still.

I think you need to get off loon internet forums for a bit and spend some more time out in the real world.

Geezus the irony of you accusing anyone of being out of touch.

 

[demondavey]

I think you need to get off loon internet forums for a bit and spend some more time out in the real world.

Geezus the irony of you accusing anyone of being out of touch.

Ok mate…. Thanks for your sage advice

 

[schneebly111]

The fact you think a very small percentile of white people are racist just shows how out of touch you are. I’ve been clear. Explicitly. My view given the current landscape we live in is that there is a majority of white Australians that are racist.

I don’t believe the majority of white Australians are racist, if they were then One Nation would get over 50% of the vote. There is a substantial proportion of people here who hold racial prejudices but I believe they’re in a minority.

What could be better is education on the racial history of this nation. For instance I find the average person has very little understanding of the White Australia Policy and it’s depth.

Ignorance of such history is ignorance not deliberate racism, and it’s incumbent of us who can to make more of our fellow citizens aware of it

 

[Carringbush2010]

The fact you think a very small percentile of white people are racist just shows how out of touch you are. I’ve been clear. Explicitly. My view given the current landscape we live in is that there is a majority of white Australians that are racist.

Disagree, if this were true then society would look a lot worse than what it does now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

What do you mean? It is on an individual level because broad level racism filters down to individuals.

But not to everyone, certainly not the majority.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You seriously need a lesson in history in this country. Going back 70-80 years and the racism towards the indigenous was pretty much embedded in society. Sure, not EVERY SINGLE person was racist or awful, however given the cultural, social, political and economic attitude HOLISTICALLY towards the indigenous, this implied severe racism.

I don't need a history lesson, I'm well aware.

Again, you're trying to conflate 80 years ago to now, that just ain't.

You’re now literally trying to justify racism wasn’t as bad as you think because ‘not all’ white people were racist.

That's some allegation, because I ask you to be clear in your language you immediately think I'm trying to justify racism.

 

[ferball]

Bullshit. It’s everywhere still.

60% of Australians voted no in the referndum in 2023.

AFAIC the vast majority of those people are racist.