Test The Ashes Fifth Test January 4-8 1000hrs @ The SCG

[revo333]

People had too high expectations of Green and it was assumed he was going to be an instant Kallis.

However at this stage of his career you'd be hoping of a batting average of around 40 and not low 30's considering some of the cheap dismissals and scores in the 40's that he should be converting into bigger scores by now.

They need to figure out a set plan for him in the team and if it can't perform it then he goes back to shield cricket and has to win it back.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The thing is, Green's not actually batted any worse than the expectations we should have for the player that's the 7th best batter in our line-up.

Since Covid began, Smith, Khawaja, Carey, Head and Labuschagne have been the clear best 5 bats, it's just that we have to find 2 more. Carey's better current form for and Labuschagne's worse current form but count them both.

Marsh - averaged 35
Webster - average might reach 40 by the end of this innings, Green still outscored him in the Windies
Warner - averaged 31 after Covid.
Handscomb - averaged 29 as an Asian specialist
Harris - averaged 27
Inglis - even with his century averaged 26
Wade - 21 as a makeshift opener
Weatherald - now averaging 21 as well
McSweeney - 14. Yes, he faced Bumrah at his peak and all that, but 14 is still 14
Konstas - career average of 16.
Connolly - small sample size, but still scored a 4 in the one innings he got in Sri Lanka.

So this idea that Cameron Green's average in the low 30's across his career is somehow below the expectations of our wider talent of our last-picked bloke in the top 7 of the batting order is just a bit strange to me as it stands - because the evidence is there that whoever we pick in his place we shouldn't expect to average 30. We just have to accept that with our level of batting talent our 7th best option will average in the low 30's, Green or otherwise.

I get the argument that for some untested players you won't know if they can raise their level and get to a 40 average until you debut them, but I suppose that balances out with the fact that we all agree on Green's "untapped potential" that is always a chance of revealing itself on a game to game basis, perhaps guided by his 50 average in the Shield.

Maybe than Webster (but he's taking Khawaja's place anyway), I really cannot be convinced that there's an obvious answer to a better bat than Green for a theoretical 6th Test.

 

[sherb]

Has anyone noticed Green has a higher batting average than Stokes this series?

Sure. Now compare bowling averages for the series.

 

[HK_Hawk]

Green has more natural talent but seems incapable of delivering.

Webster makes the most of what he's got.

And then factor in how those two characteristics sit with team mates and impact team dynamics. I know which I would prefer to be playing alongside.

 

[Jack Lord]

Good test cricket.

Our batters applied themselves knowing they had a decent total to chase down today. Not many threw their wickets away. Through patience and graft they've built a total we'll probably win from.

Just as good ... England have been in the field for a day and a half with likely another session to come. Their bowlers are rooted - they haven't trained for the long form of the game. Their batters are dispirited. And they have all that time standing out there on the SCG knowing it's over.

This was a team who arrived in Australia earnestly thinking they had a shot to win the Ashes. In the end they could only win one stupid 2 day slog against an ageing and depleted Australian team.

England's bazzball nonsense had its moments. But Australia knows how to play patient, attritional test cricket. We've bowled more consistent lines. We've played fewer stupid shots. We've flogged them in the field.

At the start of the series I heard Ben Stokes saying how he dreamed of flying home with the Ashes in hand. Instead he will return the losing captain of a team best remembered for being ill prepared and poorly organised. A team that could not take advantage of the absence of Hazelwood, Cummins, Lyon and (for one test) Smith. A team that saw themselves as the saviours of test cricket, but who could not be saved from their own hubris, impatience and stupidity.

It's always great to win the Ashes. But in my opinion an even sweeter victory would be to see England's loss also result in the end of McCullum, Key and the Bazzball era.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

McSweeney for Marnus or Weatherald.

Dropping Green in favour of state blokes that are nowhere near it seems to be a fantasy for many.

Renshaw for weather and and Mcsweeney for Green.

Marnus has been disappointing but ultimately still better than Green

 

[Buzz Hawk]

Talent alone doesn't automatically select you in the test team.
Peter Toohey had talent
Dirk Welham had talent

Neither could put it together in tests.

There are countless others like that. Thats why it is called TEST cricket. It tests all aspects of your game.

Green may have all the talent in the world but continually comes up short.

Not sure Toohey or Welham were all that talented, circumstances conspired in their favour, but I know what you mean.

 

[Jack Lord]

And then factor in how those two characteristics sit with team mates and impact team dynamics. I know which I would prefer to be playing alongside.

Cool. I'd rather play alongside someone who delivers.

Just to be clear, when Green was out there batting today there was no one wishing him more success than me. Like plenty who've become frustrated with him I'd absolutely love to see him reach his potential. It just ain't happening right now.

 

[cats_09]

Make it happen

 

[Bedi]

McSweeney for Marnus or Weatherald.

Dropping Green in favour of state blokes that are nowhere near it seems to be a fantasy for many.

McSweeney will hopefully replace Khawaja at 5

 

[sherb]

Not sure Toohey or Welham were all that talented, circumstances conspired in their favour, but I know what you mean.

Gilmour and Hookes would probably be more suitable examples.

 

[Bedi]

Cool. I'd rather play alongside someone who delivers.

Just to be clear, when Green was out there batting today there was no one wishing him more success than me. Like plenty who've become frustrated with him I'd absolutely love to see him reach his potential. It just ain't happening right now.

May not have gone on with it but was involved in a 70 run partnership so selectors will see that at as a tick

 

[Westend]

For those championing Mcsweeney to replace Green

Lets just remind everyone that Mcsweeney averages 31 this year in the shield and his overall record in the shield for his career is 37 with the blade not even over 40...to replace someone in out top six who averages less than 40 does not sit well with me and we are seeing that atm with weathers who is struggling...plus Mcsweeney was a duck in headlights last summer

I like Mcsweeney but he needs to dominate and improve his ave something he has not done since he has been dropped from the test team his 200 against Potts and co was good..more of that please

With ussie gone I can see this side come our next test

Renshaw
Head
Marnus
Smith
Green
Carey
Webbie
Cummins
Starc
Rocco
Boland

Macca has in his head that he wants carey at six we have seen that these past few tests...dont agree with it but thats what Macca wants...so thats a perfect opportunity for Webbie to nail down the seven which he is doing atm ..and I think he would be ideal at seven

 

[HK_Hawk]

He use to struggle to a start, now he gets a start and gets himself out.

Ahhh, improvement. That’s the potential unfolding. Give him another 5 years and he might crack a couple of tons.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

This is a bit of a false equivalence. Nobody has played as well as Green at Shield level, not even Webster - Green would have equalled Webster's record breaking from a couple of seasons ago if you gave him more Shield games to play.

Merely "performed" at Shield level is not close to Green's literally dominance in two facets of the game.


I disagree. With Khawaja retiring, and Weatherald a factor too, I think that Green is within the 7 players most likely to score the most runs for Australia among all the options we have. He might have dropped down to number 7 on that list now because of his current form, but I'm not convinced we've got better options.

If we weren't a weak batting line up and a strong bowling line up, I would otherwise agree with dropping him like we did to the players you listed.

Not convinced by McSweeney's Shield form this season either.

Green this year at shield level

195 runs @ 32.50
2024/25 - N/A
The year before he played 2 games (for an impressive 200 runs)
Previous year didn’t play again

So he’s got about 5 shield games across 4 years, using his shield form to keep him in the team is beyond a joke.

What we do know is he’s a mid 30’s guy with the bat. Picking him and expecting something different is stupid, o see no reason to not try a guy like Mcsweeney over him who I struggle to see how he could be worse

 

[ABAB]

Ahhh, improvement. That’s the potential unfolding. Give him another 5 years and he might crack a couple of tons.

Another 5 years and he will start to make the occasional 50.

 

[damochandler]

This English side is like the Australian side of 2010/11. They rocked up thinking Australia would roll over, just Australia thought England would in 2010/11. They played players that weren’t fit like Australia did. Only 2 players performing.

 

[Bedi]

For those championing Mcsweeney to replace Green

Lets just remind everyone that Mcsweeney averages 31 this year in the shield and his overall record in the shield for his career is 37 with the blade not even over 40...to replace someone in out top six who averages less than 40 does not sit well with me and we are seeing that atm with weathers who is struggling...plus Mcsweeney was a duck in headlights last summer

I like Mcsweeney but he needs to dominate and improve his ave something he has not done since he has been dropped from the test team his 200 against Potts and co was good..more of that please

With ussie gone I can see this side come our next test

Renshaw
Head
Marnus
Smith
Green
Carey
Webbie
Cummins
Starc
Rocco
Boland

Macca has in his head that he wants carey at six we have seen that these past few tests...dont agree with it but thats what Macca wants...so thats a perfect opportunity for Webbie to nail down the seven which he is doing atm ..and I think he would be ideal at seven

I reckon that 200 was enough to earn him a call up. Plus the fact he was batted out of position and dropped after only two tests, think selectors will want another look at him batting in the middle. But agree, not as a replacement for Green

 

[ams4crows]

Why does it matter what they’re classified as? If they’re amongst the best handful of bats at state level and there’s a spot for them then they play. Who cares if they’re both allrounders, they don’t both need to bowl.

McSweeney feels a bit Ferguson-esque. Probably not good enough but deserves a go in the middle.

If we made drastic changes (which isn’t realistic). It’d be Renshaw for Weatherald and McSweeney for Marnus for mine.

McSweeney is not a better player than Marnus

 

[Westend]

Green this year at shield level

195 runs @ 32.50
2024/25 - N/A
The year before he played 2 games (for an impressive 200 runs)
Previous year didn’t play again

So he’s got about 5 shield games across 4 years, using his shield form to keep him in the team is beyond a joke.

What we do know is he’s a mid 30’s guy with the bat. Picking him and expecting something different is stupid, o see no reason to not try a guy like Mcsweeney over him who I struggle to see how he could be worse

he averages 52 in the shield for his career

Mcsweeney ave 37 for his career and is ave 31 this year thats not good enough

 

[Westend]

I reckon that 200 was enough to earn him a call up. Plus the fact he was batted out of position and dropped after only two tests, think selectors will want another look at him batting in the middle. But agree, not as a replacement for Green

Sydney needs to score big these last 4 shield games for me ...

 

[Sonny Hayes]

he averages 52 in the shield for his career

Mcsweeney ave 37 for his career and is ave 31 this year thats not good enough

Career averages are only a small part of it, I don’t care who was better 6 years ago.

Green has barely played a shield game for 5 years.

All I’ve heard all summer is about how Webster is in poor shield form so shouldn’t be picked, but now we want to switch to career averages?

Green can go back and show he’s still able to produce that level of cricket because we’ve seen only flashes of it at test or shield level for half a decade now

 

[schmuttt]

‘That was personal’: ABC banned from Day 3 player chat by Cricket Aus after ‘out of order’ criticism of key officials

‘That was personal’: ABC banned by Cricket Aus after ‘out of order’ criticism of key officials

www.foxsports.com.au

God CA are pissweak. The sensitivity to criticism isn't just the players...

 

[Portmagpies36]

Sure. Now compare bowling averages for the series.

Sure, but nothing is said about Stokes and his batting this series.

 

[Buzz Hawk]

Gilmour and Hookes would probably be more suitable examples.

Not sure. Hookes played a lot of his test career against the Windies at their pomp. The smashed jaw from Andy Robert’s during WSC also really affected him. He was never the same but at his best he was a swashbuckler.
Gussie Gilmore had a great World Cup in ‘75. Was a brilliant talent (much more than Green IMO0, but was a very unlucky cricketer. Could have been anything.