Past #14: Trent Dumont - delisted end '21 - 113 NM games/26 NM goals - 2019 NM VCapt - thanks Froggy

[ozzyoslo]

Reckon Snake was far too harsh on Frog.

I think Tef got it 100 % right.......he said he needed to lift. Dumont has a skills set that's good enough to play at a high level. But he is no where close in the urgency stakes that takes him to a level where other supporters say schit he's alright or other teams coaching staff need to focus in stopping or hindering his output.

Its fact, as of this season......but hope he listens to coaching staff where he needs to improve and goes forward next season.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

Thought he had a decent year with a few outstanding games and a few very poor games. Think its fair to accept some inconsistency from a young inside mid who is still developing his game. 22 years old 39 games, Realistically I think next year will be the year he takes the big step towards becoming a solid, consistent AFL footballer.

If he wants to take his game to the next level he is really going to have to find away to be involved for all 4 quarters. One thing I did notice this year is that he was covering the ground a bit better. Another pre-season under his legs and he should be one of our better runners in the midfield.

Some of his kicking inside 50 this year was a real feature to his game. Hopefully he can start to accumulate the footy a bit more so he can showcase that kicking on a more consistent basis.

Really hope the club don't use him as a tagger as he really isn't that effective.

 

[Sapparoo]

Any inner scrotes know why Froggy didnt run the 2km time trial?

 

[giantroo]

Any inner scrotes know why Froggy didnt run the 2km time trial?

 

[Sapparoo]

Love your work GR

 

[Shermanator]

Thought he had a decent year with a few outstanding games and a few very poor games. Think its fair to accept some inconsistency from a young inside mid who is still developing his game. 22 years old 39 games, Realistically I think next year will be the year he takes the big step towards becoming a solid, consistent AFL footballer.

If he wants to take his game to the next level he is really going to have to find away to be involved for all 4 quarters. One thing I did notice this year is that he was covering the ground a bit better. Another pre-season under his legs and he should be one of our better runners in the midfield.

Some of his kicking inside 50 this year was a real feature to his game. Hopefully he can start to accumulate the footy a bit more so he can showcase that kicking on a more consistent basis.

Really hope the club don't use him as a tagger as he really isn't that effective.

Yep good call, with Spitta gone hopefully he can really make that spot his own.

Go the Frog!..

 

[shinboner magic]

Yep good call, with Spitta gone hopefully he can really make that spot his own.

Go the Frog!..

He'd want to lift he's game next year or I could see a few of the newcomers going past him.

Is next year his final year in his contract

 

[Snake_Baker]

Any inner scrotes know why Froggy didnt run the 2km time trial?

Isn't he training with the VFL group?

 

[King Corey]

Isn't he training with the VFL group?

You're usually partial to the pure footballer Tef what gives with Dumont?

 

[Heaps of fun]

You're usually partial to the pure footballer Tef what gives with Dumont?

Tef's a cabby.

 

[King Corey]

Tef's a cabby.

But he likes Hurley?

 

[Sapparoo]

Isn't he training with the VFL group?

Gotta disagree on that one Snake.
Trent has 20.6 disposals in 2017 to Luke McDonald's 21. He has 9.1 Contested possessions to Luke's 6.8, 66.9% Disp Efficiency to Luke's 73.7%. They were both taken in the 2013 draft, difference was Luke went at #8 and Froggy went at #30. Both 22 Y.O.

Now I'm in no way saying that these 2 players are the same, and I'm aware Luke and Frog's midfield role differentiate. However despite the variation in their roles, Trent has managed to maintain pretty decent statistics by comparison even though he has only played 39 AFL games to Luke's 74, and this is playing on blokes like Bont, Danger, Fyfe etc.

And while Trent's disposal efficiency could use work he's still managed these stats for North:
5th for Inside 50's
5th for General clearance
4th for Centre Clearances

I'll agree that Trent needs to go up another level next year. But the same can be said for the rest of our list. I'm very confident that in 35 games time, Frog will be pulling higher stats and making more of an impact than that (not to disrespect the mullet man's hard work). And trust me when I say I seriously rate Luke.

 

[Snake_Baker]

And while Trent's disposal efficiency could use work he's still managed these stats for North:

5th for Inside 50's

3.68. 59th for the competition. A rubbery stat that is largely dependent on where a player plays. It's no achievement for a midfielder getting the ball inside 50 on 3.68 occasions a game.

5th for General clearance

59th for the competition. Broke even with a StKilda half back flanker.

4th for Centre Clearances

Again, a positional statistic that must be viewed in comparison to the competition. Dumont was 67th in 2017.

 

[Sapparoo]

3.68. 59th for the competition. A rubbery stat that is largely dependent on where a player plays. It's no achievement for a midfielder getting the ball inside 50 on 3.68 occasions a game.



59th for the competition. Broke even with a StKilda half back flanker.



Again, a positional statistic that must be viewed in comparison to the competition. Dumont was 67th in 2017.

So who would you be putting ahead of him? Because sure, his ceiling may never be that of an LDU, but we're going to need blokes like Dumont to improve exponentially if we're going to get anywhere with this list (which I think they can). As the discussion in the last few months has been most of us recognize a strong premiership sides consist of b/c list players that come good. I would like to think that Frog can be for us what Picken is for WB

 

[Snake_Baker]

So who would you be putting ahead of him?

It's a bit hard to put anyone ahead of him considering we just delisted a bloke that was still better than him.

Trent is incredibly fortunate that he is on our list at this time in our club history. I doubt he would be on any other clubs list.

At this point in time, I see him as nothing more than a list filler in a good side.

I hope he can attain the significant lift he requires to be a quality AFL midfielder in a quality team.

 

[Sapparoo]

It's a bit hard to put anyone ahead of him considering we just delisted a bloke that was still better than him.

Trent is incredibly fortunate that he is on our list at this time in our club history. I doubt he would be on any other clubs list.

At this point in time, I see him as nothing more than a list filler in a good side.

I hope he can attain the significant lift he requires to be a quality AFL midfielder in a quality team.

It's not about whether Swallow was a better player - I would hope a veteran player of 11 years is still better than anyone we've played as sub for a few years and then spent the majority of a year in a freshly blooded side. We're preparing our age profile for a dynasty, and to have kept Swallow on for any longer just extends our rebuild.

He is a list filler in a good side... right now. We are now the second youngest side in the AFL and as the new generation of North improves, his stats will obviously improve as the team does. Now I know this isn't evidence of personal improvement and can be blurred due to better players surrounding him in 2-3 years. However from what i've seen from Trent in the last 2 years (which I also understand is completely anecdotal, but still relevant) is that Trent Dumont forced his way into a midfield that we were expecting to contend with. He spent a year as our sub, whilst getting his body AFL ready and dealing with the Taxi assault drama which i'm sure he's done his penance for.

I understand you're basing your judgement on him from a results standpoint, whereas i'm more looking at the grounding he has prepared himself with. Though I think it's fair to say we expect the same thing front Trent in 2018, will be a make of break year for him. Will be watching him closely because I think he's got it in him.

edit* maybe he didn't 'force himself'. Thought he certainly did prove himself to NMFC that he was worth blooding into the midfield

 

[Snake_Baker]

I understand you're basing your judgement on him from a results standpoint, whereas i'm more looking at the grounding he has prepared himself with. Though I think it's fair to say we expect the same thing front Trent in 2018, will be a make of break year for him.

He turns 23 at the midway mark of next season, so the youth arguments go straight out the window. He's incredibly fortunate to have another two years on his contract. He should be in the group fighting for contracts in 2018.

I suspect the 18 year old kid we drafted this year will put in a better season than a 23 year old Dumont in 2018.

Will be watching him closely because I think he's got it in him.

I hope you are correct.

 

[remfan101]

It's a bit hard to put anyone ahead of him considering we just delisted a bloke that was still better than him.

Trent is incredibly fortunate that he is on our list at this time in our club history. I doubt he would be on any other clubs list.

At this point in time, I see him as nothing more than a list filler in a good side.

I hope he can attain the significant lift he requires to be a quality AFL midfielder in a quality team.

He turns 23 at the midway mark of next season, so the youth arguments go straight out the window. He's incredibly fortunate to have another two years on his contract. He should be in the group fighting for contracts in 2018.

I suspect the 18 year old kid we drafted this year will put in a better season than a 23 year old Dumont in 2018.




I hope you are correct.

God there is so much utter trash in these posts, it's unbelievable. If you have to continue with this misguided vendetta can you at least take a leaf out of the Ziebul's book and do it quietly?

 

[remfan101]

For those of us who actually want to objectively consider Trent's game, I dug up his 'player ratings' for last year, which probably conform where I see him at this point.

1 WC Hard worker in midfield. Made a few errors, but looks ready to take on more responsibility this season. 6
2 Geel Huge game highlighted by some brilliant tackling, five inside-50s and 24 disposals. 7
3 GWS Got involved in midfield with 14 possessions and six tackles – and a polished goal – but not enough. 6
4 WB Skill errors hurt his overall productivity but couldn’t question his effort all day; 20 disposals, four tackles. 5
5 Frem Strong effort. Had 24 touches and won eight clearances. Great signs. 7
6 GCS Had a fair game, winning most of his possessions on the outside. 5
7 Adel Two first half goals from midfield and did a lot of grunt work in close that helped North get on top. 7
8 Syd One of many midfielders who were quiet over the four quarters. 3
9 Concussion.
10 Carl Having a super consistent season. Impressive by hand, tackled with intent and kicked a cracker in the first term. 7
11 Rich Battled away against the tide for 24 disposals, four inside-50s and 444 metres gained. Did what he could. 6
12 Bye.
13 StK Honest performance without doing great deal of damage. 5
14 WB Really quiet night and looked a little sluggish. Nine effective disposals not enough for a ball winner. 3
15 Rested.
16 Frem Didn’t have a big day in midfield. Just the 13 touches. 3
17 VFL One of Werribee's best with a huge 35 disposals and looked a class above at this level. -
18 Ess 28 disposals and a goal a good return for the ball magnet. Would like to go better than 68% by hand and foot. 6
19 Melb Quiet first half and efficiency was down when he got it. A bit better in final hour. 5
20 Coll One of the Roos’ best. Becoming a staple of their midfield group and blended his outside and inside work nicely. 7
21 Haw Got the job on Tom Mitchell, but both players showed scant regard for their opponent. Finished with 25 disposals. 6
22 StK Wasn’t the worst and did some handy things at times. 5
23 Bris Good game in middle and has shown out in recent weeks. Shifted onto D.Beams in second term and did important job. 7

To me, that is pretty much what I'd expect from a 22 year old inside mid playing his first full season of AFL footy as a full time mid. Was inconsistent at times, but there is no doubt that his best is good enough and he played some very good games for us. I think he's a great point of difference in our midfield with his vision inside 50 and will nicely compliment Cunnington, Higgins, Ziebell and LDU on the inside as he continues to develop his game and become more consistent. Definitely on the right track though, is obviously highly rated internally and you can see why, he's a real natural footballer.

 

[kangaspurs]

Trent is incredibly fortunate that he is on our list at this time in our club history. I doubt he would be on any other clubs list.

That is, categorically, a load of absolute garbage.

As for your statistical rankings for comparison, Jack Ziebell ranks at 41st for inside 50s with 3.95 per game (0.27 more than Trent), 36th for general clearances (1.26 more), and 34th for centre clearances (0.69 :stern look more), while also ranking 14th in the league for clangers per game (Dumont 69th :stern look again with 0.84 less) and 14th in the entire league for turnovers per game (Dumont 67th with 0.68 less). All this despite Dumont only 1.6 possessions less, often playing a tagging role and being 4 and a half years younger and 127 games less experienced.

If those statistical measure are the basis for your, quite frankly, pathetic criticism of him then you need to look a lot deeper because those measures apply to most of the list and to players taken with higher draft picks.

 

[kangaspurs]

For those of us who actually want to objectively consider Trent's game, I dug up his 'player ratings' for last year, which probably conform where I see him at this point.

1 WC Hard worker in midfield. Made a few errors, but looks ready to take on more responsibility this season. 6
2 Geel Huge game highlighted by some brilliant tackling, five inside-50s and 24 disposals. 7
3 GWS Got involved in midfield with 14 possessions and six tackles – and a polished goal – but not enough. 6
4 WB Skill errors hurt his overall productivity but couldn’t question his effort all day; 20 disposals, four tackles. 5
5 Frem Strong effort. Had 24 touches and won eight clearances. Great signs. 7
6 GCS Had a fair game, winning most of his possessions on the outside. 5
7 Adel Two first half goals from midfield and did a lot of grunt work in close that helped North get on top. 7
8 Syd One of many midfielders who were quiet over the four quarters. 3
9 Concussion.
10 Carl Having a super consistent season. Impressive by hand, tackled with intent and kicked a cracker in the first term. 7
11 Rich Battled away against the tide for 24 disposals, four inside-50s and 444 metres gained. Did what he could. 6
12 Bye.
13 StK Honest performance without doing great deal of damage. 5
14 WB Really quiet night and looked a little sluggish. Nine effective disposals not enough for a ball winner. 3
15 Rested.
16 Frem Didn’t have a big day in midfield. Just the 13 touches. 3
17 VFL One of Werribee's best with a huge 35 disposals and looked a class above at this level. -
18 Ess 28 disposals and a goal a good return for the ball magnet. Would like to go better than 68% by hand and foot. 6
19 Melb Quiet first half and efficiency was down when he got it. A bit better in final hour. 5
20 Coll One of the Roos’ best. Becoming a staple of their midfield group and blended his outside and inside work nicely. 7
21 Haw Got the job on Tom Mitchell, but both players showed scant regard for their opponent. Finished with 25 disposals. 6
22 StK Wasn’t the worst and did some handy things at times. 5
23 Bris Good game in middle and has shown out in recent weeks. Shifted onto D.Beams in second term and did important job. 7

To me, that is pretty much what I'd expect from a 22 year old inside mid playing his first full season of AFL footy as a full time mid. Was inconsistent at times, but there is no doubt that his best is good enough and he played some very good games for us. I think he's a great point of difference in our midfield with his vision inside 50 and will nicely compliment Cunnington, Higgins, Ziebell and LDU on the inside as he continues to develop his game and become more consistent. Definitely on the right track though, is obviously highly rated internally and you can see why, he's a real natural footballer.

Pretty much this. Started well, lost form in the middle of the year and finished rather excellently.

He's a good player who should take on a greater role next with, fingers, toes and testes crossed, Ziebell's permanent move to the forward line.

 

[Rad Roo]

Successor to Cunnington, dumont needs to be able to play as a marking small forward to kick some goals. You can only have one of JZ, Cunnington and Dumont otherwise it would be a very slow and plodding midfield. This is where we see if brad scott has actually gained any new skill and awareness as the coach in that his gameplan to date involves a plethora of in and under player who can get the ball but absolute s**t disposal. And as it happened often, opp team apply defensive pressure would cause a turn over and due to the plodding nature our players, we cant apply as much pressure to the opposition midfielders.

Now as a thought, the jigsaw puzzle needs to be significantly rearranged. 2018 onwards, players like simpkin, garner, mcdonald needs to be like 75% midfielders. Then you add new players Ahern, LDU, Hartung and whoever else into the mix then we would have a lot more pace and more importantly, variety (remember its the Aus' variety in bowling that eventually toppled the west indies). On paper we can already envisage simpkin to be very agile and good a lateral movement; garner with his close in explosiveness and bullocking strength; mcdonald as the big midfielder; i can only assume ahern to be like simpkin as someone with a lot of natural talent; LDU explosive and multi-roled; hartung with his elite running.

Now Dumont now can complement this midfield i just described. So this leaves ziebell and cunnington out as possible obsolete players....if they don't add strings to their bows. At 27 years of age with our rebuild, these guys would be like 30 when we r back in finals contention, so possible trade for cunnington (add in atley too). However as things stand, players like Ziebell and cunnington are players with brute strength, something that worked really well to our favour in 2016 elimination final vs. richmond. However physical strength without the legs is like a big battleship without air cover. Now this require significant foresight by scott to sparingly use players like cunnington and ziebell as i see them like bouncers at nightclubs where they are only called on when required.

ziebell has found himself a niche as this medium marking forward whos very strong and hard to match up, so you would leave him one out in the goal square if the taller players are not firing. Cunnington unfortunately does not seem to have a secondary role that he has shown to have clear evidence of. So this implies Dumont has to play off the bench and/or small forward and rotate through the midfield when cunnington needs a spell on the bench. But i think after all the clean outs over the last 2 years, the crew around cunnington does allow him to complement well.

The mentality of NM really needs to shift away from having a few 'in and under' physically strong midfielders complemented by one or two highly skilled players. The roles of these physically strong midfielders who could get their hands on the ball have been replaced by those highly aggressive, fit, attacking, high pressure applying players. Also a midfield needs like 10 of those. The game play today is more of a 'total football' style where it's not a few with specific roles but a whole group applying the traditionally close in players but also having to play the defensive role where it was once specialized role by taggers or 'run with players'. Then you complement this ground with one or two (if you are lucky 3+) special talented players to really make a highly cohesive midfield brigade.

i would dare say that players like Ziebell, Cunnington and Dumont are surplus to our needs at a glance. However Ziebell can play this medium forward that can boot a few goals and pinch hit in the midfield as a thug and battering ram type to boost morale or add variety when plan A does not work. If dumont can show to have stronger defensive side, then he could be added to the 'dirty dozen' group where these guys are unnamed but player vital roles. Cunnington i am afraid neither has a secondly skill nor is young enough so i would actually trade him out for a 2nd rounder, i would also get rid off atley for 2nd round in 2018 (if not a late 1st rounder if he has a miraculous year with form).

 

[remfan101]

Successor to Cunnington, dumont needs to be able to play as a marking small forward to kick some goals. You can only have one of JZ, Cunnington and Dumont otherwise it would be a very slow and plodding midfield. This is where we see if brad scott has actually gained any new skill and awareness as the coach in that his gameplan to date involves a plethora of in and under player who can get the ball but absolute s**t disposal. And as it happened often, opp team apply defensive pressure would cause a turn over and due to the plodding nature our players, we cant apply as much pressure to the opposition midfielders.

Now as a thought, the jigsaw puzzle needs to be significantly rearranged. 2018 onwards, players like simpkin, garner, mcdonald needs to be like 75% midfielders. Then you add new players Ahern, LDU, Hartung and whoever else into the mix then we would have a lot more pace and more importantly, variety (remember its the Aus' variety in bowling that eventually toppled the west indies). On paper we can already envisage simpkin to be very agile and good a lateral movement; garner with his close in explosiveness and bullocking strength; mcdonald as the big midfielder; i can only assume ahern to be like simpkin as someone with a lot of natural talent; LDU explosive and multi-roled; hartung with his elite running.

Now Dumont now can complement this midfield i just described. So this leaves ziebell and cunnington out as possible obsolete players....if they don't add strings to their bows. At 27 years of age with our rebuild, these guys would be like 30 when we r back in finals contention, so possible trade for cunnington (add in atley too). However as things stand, players like Ziebell and cunnington are players with brute strength, something that worked really well to our favour in 2016 elimination final vs. richmond. However physical strength without the legs is like a big battleship without air cover. Now this require significant foresight by scott to sparingly use players like cunnington and ziebell as i see them like bouncers at nightclubs where they are only called on when required.

ziebell has found himself a niche as this medium marking forward whos very strong and hard to match up, so you would leave him one out in the goal square if the taller players are not firing. Cunnington unfortunately does not seem to have a secondary role that he has shown to have clear evidence of. So this implies Dumont has to play off the bench and/or small forward and rotate through the midfield when cunnington needs a spell on the bench. But i think after all the clean outs over the last 2 years, the crew around cunnington does allow him to complement well.

The mentality of NM really needs to shift away from having a few 'in and under' physically strong midfielders complemented by one or two highly skilled players. The roles of these physically strong midfielders who could get their hands on the ball have been replaced by those highly aggressive, fit, attacking, high pressure applying players. Also a midfield needs like 10 of those. The game play today is more of a 'total football' style where it's not a few with specific roles but a whole group applying the traditionally close in players but also having to play the defensive role where it was once specialized role by taggers or 'run with players'. Then you complement this ground with one or two (if you are lucky 3+) special talented players to really make a highly cohesive midfield brigade.

i would dare say that players like Ziebell, Cunnington and Dumont are surplus to our needs at a glance. However Ziebell can play this medium forward that can boot a few goals and pinch hit in the midfield as a thug and battering ram type to boost morale or add variety when plan A does not work. If dumont can show to have stronger defensive side, then he could be added to the 'dirty dozen' group where these guys are unnamed but player vital roles. Cunnington i am afraid neither has a secondly skill nor is young enough so i would actually trade him out for a 2nd rounder, i would also get rid off atley for 2nd round in 2018 (if not a late 1st rounder if he has a miraculous year with form).

Nice paragraphs! Unfortunately, that's the only positive thing I have to say haha... but seriously, you want to trade our only elite midfielder (a top 5 pick) for a 2nd rounder while he's in his prime?? Try again mate.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I'm more than happy to be wrong.

Injuries aside, there will be no more excuses by the end of 2018.

 

[Grogg]

Harsh assessment of Cunnington by Rad Roo.

Strong overhead, has forward smarts and can slot em.

The fact he has never been used as such has unfortunately shaped this imo incorrect assumption.

It was a strength of his as a junior and has never been exploited as a senior footballer, most likely due to his importance in the middle and the fact that Ziebell is also a very good forward as well.

Anyway, I digress.