2012 - How to get to the top.

[Stig O'Hara]

Ensure that next years fair and balanced draw has us playing GCS and GWS twice each.

Those 16 points should be a nice leg up.

 

[gbatman]

bugger the stats. only take notice on what we do against top 4 sides.

How often did we score over 100 against top 4 sides. I don't think we did.

 

[The_Wookie]

Geelong beat us by 3 points in a game we should have won. Collingwood by 21 points the second time round in a game we were a chance in (and the first time around we were missing most of our spine), hawthorns win over us had little to do with lacking a key forward, and the loss to west coast in round 14 can easily be attributed to an undermanned defence and 1/3rd of the senior side missing from the starting 18. And the semi final on the weekend could have been won if we'd kicked straight and hadnt thrown people to the ground in the goal square.

I dont care what score we kick against the top sides, your argument that a KPF beyond our current stock is required, is nonsense. This year actively proves it.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

^^^^^^^

This is what scares me about some supporters. No idea

 

[The_Wookie]

and what scares me about people like you is that you think we should all think the same. Theres far more to take out of this season that you seem to believe. Also please feel free to point out the holes in my post.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

and what scares me about people like you is that you think we should all think the same. Theres far more to take out of this season that you seem to believe. Also please feel free to point out the holes in my post.

Ok, the case for the prosecution would like to call Brett Ratten.

Ratten has repeatedly stated Carlton's need for some more talls. In fact in 2010, Ratten delivered a near ultimatum to his recruiter Wayne Hughes to draft some key talls to help the side. WHs then used his first 3 picks in last years draft to pick some talls that will hopefully be ready by 2013 - i reiterate, his first 3 picks all on talls. WHs admitted (on video) the call for more talls came from Ratten.

Ratten has this year (post finals) also stated the need for rdy to go KPP talls who could play consistently. He also did mention more mids as you can never have enough mids. But this debate isnt about more mids it is clearly about whether we need more talls which you are refuting.

As the first salvo from the prosecution, I can't say enough about the integrity of Brett Ratten and his indepth knowledge of the Carlton football club. I'm not sure there is ANYONE more knowledgeable atm.

I would like to end my opening statement by drawing a comparison between the knowledge of the football club by Brett Ratten vs the wookie.

Ratten

• Premiership player
• Great coach
• Current coach
• Knows the Carlton playing list 100%
• Knows what the club needs
• works at the club so has intimate knowledge of every player

The Wookie

• Has no real inside information at all
• Is a wookie
• Is probably this boards best video poster so kudos on that front.

There is a lot more but just want to see if you want to stop before you dig your own grave

 

[Squida25]

lol^

I think for us to take the next step we need to become ruthless, think of the transition of Geelong in 06 to 2007 Geelong. How do we do that, no idea .

I'd imagine an increased fitness base would help too, look at the way Collingwood runs out games (blowing away opposition in the 4th quarter).

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

The case for the prosecution would like to draw the wookies attention to the games that count. Top 4 contender games.

A lot of the stats that round out a year include us bullying small teams where our midfield gets on top and sends the ball inside so many times. We dont get the luxury of that vs the top 4. And it is against the top 4 we need to focus if the aim is to win a flag.

Our midfield does not dominate the Pies, Hawls, WCE's or Geelongs. They might edge a contest. There might be an exception game but you know what i'm talking about. Shades of grey to split the midfields at top 4 level.

If you go back through the games listed below you can check your stats for the biggest goal contributor. In all except one game a decent KPF for the opposition hurt us badly.

• Pies Vs Carlton x2 Dawes/Cloke (5 goals + 18 marks between Dawes/Cloke) and Cloke (7 shots on goal + 9 marks). Carlton didnt really have a key fwd offsetting this. We lost by 30 points.

• Geelong. Had Pods and Hawkins. Both did nothing. Funny enough, with the key fwds either held (Pods) or out of form (Hawkins), game was on the line and we should have won. Note: So if a team doesnt have a REALLY good key forward, we are a chance.

• WCE x2 First game, 4 goals from Lynch/Kennedy, nothing from from our key fwds. Second game (finals). 6 goals between Darling/Kennedy. Walker 3 goals. Unlucky for us Thornton went down with 1 goal. Thornton despite pinch hitting for us up fwd is a stop gap solution.

• Hawthorn. Buddy killed this game in the first half. 4 goals. Walker our best with 1 goal. How much did we loe by?

There is enough to illustrate vs the top teams that a decent KPP forward can be the difference. We are going inside 50 the same as everyone else in the top 4, the only difference is that our KPP fwds jut arent clunking as many marks as the opposition.

And to be honest, Walker has had a great year but no one outside the argumentative describe him as a KPP fwd. We know he is a third tall fwd type who is having to fill in as a key fwd...hence the huge pack fly's to try and leap over much taller opponents.

 

[The_Wookie]

Your honour, the defence runs away and hides.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Your honour, the defence runs away and hides.

Funny

I definitely agree with all the other things you said on disposal efficiency, missing set shots, and in the first WCE eagles game, a lack of a defence cost us any chance.

I think part of us missing that big body means all our smalls end up on the boundary or very acute angle taking harder shots at goal than some of the other top 4 teams.

I dont have any proof of this over the season. We need one of those cricket charts to highlights the spread of forward 50 shots on goal.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Your honour, the defence runs away and hides.

Very unwookie-like

[YOUTUBE]6Xywqv1cDH8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[FULACH]

Hey all,

Sorry to intrude, was doing some searching on Bower as have heard from some people over here that FFC may be looking at him.

From an outsiders perspective you guys were simply unfortunate this year, no consolation but you ran into a full strength WCE side where as you had some key outs.

You had a 6 day break and nearly beat them.

Dawes would pretty much put your team into top 4 bracket.

Waite can play the lead up and crash the packs role for your crumbers but you need 2 of those to really dominate.

Defence may need to tighten up a touch but you can work with the guys you have as most have been thrown in but doing well considering.

 

[gbatman]

lol^

I think for us to take the next step we need to become ruthless, think of the transition of Geelong in 06 to 2007 Geelong. How do we do that, no idea .

I'd imagine an increased fitness base would help too, look at the way Collingwood runs out games (blowing away opposition in the 4th quarter).

This comes down to their ability to rotate a lot of players through the midfield, keeping the midfield fresh whilst having the quality of depth to not lose momentum.

 

[Bluebear]

I definitely agree with all the other things you said on disposal efficiency, missing set shots, and in the first WCE eagles game, a lack of a defence cost us any chance.

Actually I think the loss of Robbo, Curnow and Carrazzo just before the game, plus Jamo in the first Q cost us.

They smashed us in the clearances........the defence never had a chance.

Roll forward to Saturday, and all of a sudden the clearances are more even with our "hard nuts" in and we look much better.

I think part of us missing that big body means all our smalls end up on the boundary or very acute angle taking harder shots at goal than some of the other top 4 teams.

I agree with you BG that we need a good tall marking target.

The problem with our smalls, especially Betts, is that he has learnt to think like a leading, marking forward. What this means is that from time to time he now gets stuck out of position, to neither contest as a marking player, or crumb the drop of the ball.

Saturday night, on far too many occasions Eddie led his man to the contest, not for the drop of the ball, but for the arial duel. As Eddie pulled up and peeled off to the front of the contest, his man was able to continue on with no pressure and go third man up.

This didn't help the likes of O'hAiplin or Thornton, both of whom copped way too much flak for Saturday night. Instead, O'hAilpin started to push further up the ground looking for some space.

I disagree with some that Thornton is just a "stop gap".
It may well prove to be the case, but he has always been strong overhead. I'd like to see him spend the summer re-learning the role of a forward and see if he can make a fist of it.

I don't see us getting Dawes. Have a look at how much Eddie is trying to limit their rivals by tying up their soon to be ex-coach and not allowing the IP out.
No way he gives us, a main contender, a huge leg up by delivering a big power forward..........they will screw us over HUGE if we do get him, but I still don't think Eddie will help us out like that.....and besides, he's had one and a half good seasons and he's got bodgy knees.

Any chance we look at Mitch Clarke (I know he wants to go home, but maybe just getting out of Vossbane is enough). Maybe we do look at Lake, but with his mobility are we just getting another clapped out Lance Whitnall - some similarities there?

If a ready made forward presents to us then we should look at it, but I think we are that close with what we have. Walker will get better. That was his first year as a permanent forward. Maybe the likes of Waite, Thornton, Hampson, O'hAilpin, Mitchell, Watson or Henderson..........will step up another notch, or remain fit enough to get some form.

IMHO, premierships in the last 10 years are usually won by the best defensive side with the best midfield. Forward lines have been optional, or ineffectual come the big day.

Same would have been true for us Saturday night. Some straight kicks from Murphy and Simpson........some composure from Davies......and we are talking about whether we can repeat the dose on the Cats at the G rather than 2012. Height not a factor there.

 

[gbatman]

Truth is our midfield only beats the top 4 sides midfields in patches but when we play top 4 sides we only break even or don't quite win which won't win you many premierships. Difference is the bottom onballers in our side are no where near as good as the top 4 side's bottom few onballers. Ellard is lucky to get high teens most weeks which is nowhere near good enough for playing on the ball, but if we drop him we are crap because we are desperate for this sort. We need another player who can more often than not give us the same output as Murph and Judd. Robinson has gone close. Gibbs is a likely candidate to go onball and influence the result of games and not just fill a hole.

Do we need a tall forward? Bloody oath. Our scores against top 4 sides have been less than impressive. When the pressure is on towards the end tight games as we have seen we try the long kicking high intensity game which is great but we have no one to take those match winning games. Our forward structure needs a few talls so that we have tall marking targets but so that Walker and Betts are not on really good tall defenders and so our small forwards can play the front and center ground level game. Structure is everything.

We do not want to be in a situation where we are looking to beat sides by a few goals/points. Come finals we want to be winning with comfort so missed shots on goal and silly free kicks etc don't matter.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Game plan is about right. Kudos to Ratten at the team on getting this right so just keep developing this now and improving but we have it right.
As for our team structure and setup, we don't have to do much at all within our starting 22. I really want to load up a little more forward of the centre with another KP player but I have kept it to what I believe Ratten & comp prefer with the additional rotations/midfield run, so I've kept the 2 KP forwards plus Walker & Gibbs forward.
My concern however is in our depth, especially midfield depth.

Our 22:
Duigen Jamison Laidler
Russell Henderson Yarran
Scotland Curnow Simpson
Gibbs Waite Gartlett
Walker Kruezer Betts
Warnock Judd Murphy
Carrazzo Lucas Robinson
Sub: Tuohy

Depth in no special order:
Backs: Bower, White, Davies, Joseph, (Watson, McCarthy = unknown)
Midfield: McLean, Ellard, Armfield
Forwards: Thornton, (Casboult, Mitchell = unknown)
Rucks: Hampson

I'd be happy with us to draft another KP forward (ready made if possible) and multiple midfielders.
Thankfully Hampson & Kruezer can play forward/ruck which is a big bonus.
I wouldn't be trading Bower, Russell or Lucas - must keep.
Would like us to keep Aussie as well but I haven't included him in the above as I hold fears we will delist or trade.

 

[Jabba73]

We need to play to our strengths and make the opposition plan around us, rather than the other way around.

We have all sides worried about our pace, versatile forward line and midfield/rucks, yet we consistently set up with a "cover them first" type attitude instead of backing our blokes in. I hope we no longer see the need to take 4+ taggers into a game.

When they are quiet/being held in the forward line, I would love to see Betts and Garlett given a licence to hunt the ball at centre bounces as both have consistently shown they are more than capable. It would also add to the quality midfield rotations we need to beat the top 4 sides.

Finally, we need the injury list reduced to normal levels, we have had more than our fair share of problems in the last couple of years and it is time for a bit of luck at last.

Another year of development (fast tracked by injuries to key players) along with another full preseason to work on gaps in strategy and fitness/bulk for players and there is no reason we cannot be playing for a GF berth this time next season.