Duggan is probably the most well rounded and polished in all of those areas from what I've seen
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List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Discussion Part II
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tigs2010
wowing tiger_muff all day every day
Petracca could become a Kennedy type.
I don't think we lack we just keep trying to force them to become outside players.
Dusty was a monster at clearances in seasons 1 and 2, Vlastuin was supposedly an inside mid but we play him off the back flank, Brett Deledio has played some of his best football in 2012 and 2009 as a big bodied mid. Cotchin ain't that small either and Benny Lennon long term is a big 190cm midfielder
But we have a habit this year of playing Grigg (who is 190 but soft), Ellis, Edwards, Thomas, Foley and Jackson (who is big) in the centre square which frustrates no end when you see other clubs put their best couple of players in the middle i.e Heppell and Watson, Pendles and Beams, Mitchell and Lewis, Fyfe, Barlow and Mundy, Johnson and Selwood, Kennedy and Hannebery ect...
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_RT_
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Depth Chart End of 2014
Rucks: Maric Hampson
KPF: Riewoldt Griffiths Vickery McBean
KPD: Rance Chaplin Astbury Darrou(r)
Forwards: McDonough S.Edwards Knights Lloyd
Defenders: Batchelor Petterd Dea Houli Morris McIntosh Williams(r)
Midfielders: Cotchin Deledio Martin Vlastuin Jackson Ellis Conca Miles(r) Lennon Thomas(r) Grigg O'Hanlon Gordon Arnot Helbig
Assuming that we finish bottom 5 and have picks 5, 25, 43, 61, 79 & 97 I'd like us to go with the following strategy at the end of the year.
Delisted:
Senior List: Newman(retired) A.Edwards(retired) King(retired) Foley(paid out)
Rookie List: Stephenson Banfield
Trade Table:
Grimes - Pick 23 from Saints. Saints needs KPD help desperately, Grimes gives them that immediate answer.
Elton - Pick 27 from Carlton. Initially a pick 26 with 3 years development, gives Carlton a ready to go KPF option.
Draft Picks: 5, 23, 25, 27, 43 & 61
5. Hugh Goddard 196cm 93kg KPP Geelong Falcons
Knightmares Profile: Goddard is one of the star key position players this year and has the ability to play both forward and back well. He’s got exceptional pace, agility and an excellent leap. Has a long kick for his age. And has some ability at ground level, so there is plenty to work with. There is just that little bit of something dominant missing to his game though. As a forward Goddard in the TAC can kick three goals a game every week but it’s almost always a quiet three goals. He just doesn’t feel like he’s going to take over games and you don’t really notice his impact as more a component to winning rather than a centrepiece and a reason for winning. He just lacks the presence to his game that the other premier key forwards of the competition have and doesn’t have that same feel that he’ll go off as a goalkicking threat like those other real high end key forwards have which is why I rate him lower than the other top key position players. I wouldn’t draft Goddard expecting him to become the no.1 option up forward but as a no.2 option he’d be an excellent get.
My Reasoning: Drafting Goddard as a long term option rather than a first round kid who comes in and plays from his first year. The beauty is that at this pick I don't see Goddard as a reach, more taking a best available option
23. Kyle Langford 190cm 73kg Forward/Midfielder Northern Knights
Knightmares Profile: Langford is a very damaging tall forward flanker who is playing some really exciting footy and doesn’t need a whole lot of the footy to do his damage. Langford has a light body but some real pace to him, a willingness to take on the game, a damaging kick and strong overhead marking ability making him a big threat up forward. Langford has a late year birthday and his rate of development you’d think he has lots of physical and footballing growth left.
My Reasoning: We all know that we need some skill and pace added to the side and Langford offer both as mentioned above. Again not a kid that will come in and play from round 1.
25. Touk Miller 177cm 80kg Midfielder Calder Cannons
Knightmares Profile: Miller is a relatively short but powerful midfielder who provides some real grunt around the contest. He’ll win the hard ball, outbody guys, get in and under and extract by hand and reads the ruck taps very well. He also has the ability to burst out of the contest with the explosive pace he has. He’s a strong tackler and his tackles stick. He’s proven at times that he can push forward and hit the scoreboard. By foot he’s improving but still needs to become more consistent.
My Reasoning: After moving Foley on we need another hard quick inside midfielder. Miller gives us that and as Vic Metro captain brings leadership with him.
27. Jayden Laverde 189cm 82kg Utility Western Jets
Knightmares Profile: Laverde is a versatile type with excellent athleticism and pace at his height. He enjoys breaking the lines and taking on the game with ball in hand. He’s a strong mark overhead whether that be playing behind the play as an intercept mark or in front of the ball leading up at the footy. He’s a good user of the footy and with ball in hand can create some more time for himself but decision making can let him down at times.
My Reasoning: Like Langford above Laverde offers us skill and pace.
43. Darcy Cameron 203cm 98kg Ruckman Claremont
Knightmare Profile: Cameron is a young ruckman who was overlooked last year but has responded well and is playing in the WAFL seniors this year. He’s showing that against more experienced bodies that he is a capable tap ruckman. He’s for his age got a strong body. He can push forward and present as a marking target and be an occasional goalkicking threat. He’s also starting to find more of the footy around the ground which is also encouraging. As is the case with all young ruckmen he’ll require a few years to develop but he’s showing the signs that he’s someone worth putting the time into.
My Reasoning: With Stephenson retiring and only having Maric and Hampson on the list as genuine ruckmen, I'd like to bring in a kid to develop for a couple of years, which would also allow us to play Griffiths & Vickery as genuine forwards rather than forward/ruck.
61. Ben Darrou 190cm 97kg KPD Rookie Upgrade Richmond
My Reasoning: After spending 3 years on the rookie system we either elevate Darrou or move him on. At this stage Darrou has earned an upgrade to the senior list.
Rookies
I'd re-rookie Thomas Miles & Williams and then I'd look at add 3 of the best available kids, ideally a couple of skilled quick hard at it ball users and another project ruckman as well, perhaps even Kovacevic if he goes undrafted.
Depth Chart Heading Into 2015
Rucks: Maric Hampson Cameron rookie ruck
KPF: Riewoldt Griffiths Vickery McBean
KPD: Rance Chaplin Astbury Darrou
KPP: Goddard
Forwards: McDonough S.Edwards Knights Lloyd Langford rookie
Defenders: Batchelor Petterd Dea Houli Morris McIntosh Laverde Williams(r) rookie
Midfielders: Cotchin Deledio Martin Vlastuin Jackson Ellis Conca Miles(r) Lennon Miller Thomas(r) Grigg O'Hanlon Gordon Arnot Helbig
Looking at that list it gives us a nice spread right across the list, developing rucks/KPPs and good depth through the medium sized players. Hopefully this sort of off season plan is more keenly received by others.
Rucks: Maric Hampson
KPF: Riewoldt Griffiths Vickery McBean
KPD: Rance Chaplin Astbury Darrou(r)
Forwards: McDonough S.Edwards Knights Lloyd
Defenders: Batchelor Petterd Dea Houli Morris McIntosh Williams(r)
Midfielders: Cotchin Deledio Martin Vlastuin Jackson Ellis Conca Miles(r) Lennon Thomas(r) Grigg O'Hanlon Gordon Arnot Helbig
Assuming that we finish bottom 5 and have picks 5, 25, 43, 61, 79 & 97 I'd like us to go with the following strategy at the end of the year.
Delisted:
Senior List: Newman(retired) A.Edwards(retired) King(retired) Foley(paid out)
Rookie List: Stephenson Banfield
Trade Table:
Grimes - Pick 23 from Saints. Saints needs KPD help desperately, Grimes gives them that immediate answer.
Elton - Pick 27 from Carlton. Initially a pick 26 with 3 years development, gives Carlton a ready to go KPF option.
Draft Picks: 5, 23, 25, 27, 43 & 61
5. Hugh Goddard 196cm 93kg KPP Geelong Falcons
Knightmares Profile: Goddard is one of the star key position players this year and has the ability to play both forward and back well. He’s got exceptional pace, agility and an excellent leap. Has a long kick for his age. And has some ability at ground level, so there is plenty to work with. There is just that little bit of something dominant missing to his game though. As a forward Goddard in the TAC can kick three goals a game every week but it’s almost always a quiet three goals. He just doesn’t feel like he’s going to take over games and you don’t really notice his impact as more a component to winning rather than a centrepiece and a reason for winning. He just lacks the presence to his game that the other premier key forwards of the competition have and doesn’t have that same feel that he’ll go off as a goalkicking threat like those other real high end key forwards have which is why I rate him lower than the other top key position players. I wouldn’t draft Goddard expecting him to become the no.1 option up forward but as a no.2 option he’d be an excellent get.
My Reasoning: Drafting Goddard as a long term option rather than a first round kid who comes in and plays from his first year. The beauty is that at this pick I don't see Goddard as a reach, more taking a best available option
23. Kyle Langford 190cm 73kg Forward/Midfielder Northern Knights
Knightmares Profile: Langford is a very damaging tall forward flanker who is playing some really exciting footy and doesn’t need a whole lot of the footy to do his damage. Langford has a light body but some real pace to him, a willingness to take on the game, a damaging kick and strong overhead marking ability making him a big threat up forward. Langford has a late year birthday and his rate of development you’d think he has lots of physical and footballing growth left.
My Reasoning: We all know that we need some skill and pace added to the side and Langford offer both as mentioned above. Again not a kid that will come in and play from round 1.
25. Touk Miller 177cm 80kg Midfielder Calder Cannons
Knightmares Profile: Miller is a relatively short but powerful midfielder who provides some real grunt around the contest. He’ll win the hard ball, outbody guys, get in and under and extract by hand and reads the ruck taps very well. He also has the ability to burst out of the contest with the explosive pace he has. He’s a strong tackler and his tackles stick. He’s proven at times that he can push forward and hit the scoreboard. By foot he’s improving but still needs to become more consistent.
My Reasoning: After moving Foley on we need another hard quick inside midfielder. Miller gives us that and as Vic Metro captain brings leadership with him.
27. Jayden Laverde 189cm 82kg Utility Western Jets
Knightmares Profile: Laverde is a versatile type with excellent athleticism and pace at his height. He enjoys breaking the lines and taking on the game with ball in hand. He’s a strong mark overhead whether that be playing behind the play as an intercept mark or in front of the ball leading up at the footy. He’s a good user of the footy and with ball in hand can create some more time for himself but decision making can let him down at times.
My Reasoning: Like Langford above Laverde offers us skill and pace.
43. Darcy Cameron 203cm 98kg Ruckman Claremont
Knightmare Profile: Cameron is a young ruckman who was overlooked last year but has responded well and is playing in the WAFL seniors this year. He’s showing that against more experienced bodies that he is a capable tap ruckman. He’s for his age got a strong body. He can push forward and present as a marking target and be an occasional goalkicking threat. He’s also starting to find more of the footy around the ground which is also encouraging. As is the case with all young ruckmen he’ll require a few years to develop but he’s showing the signs that he’s someone worth putting the time into.
My Reasoning: With Stephenson retiring and only having Maric and Hampson on the list as genuine ruckmen, I'd like to bring in a kid to develop for a couple of years, which would also allow us to play Griffiths & Vickery as genuine forwards rather than forward/ruck.
61. Ben Darrou 190cm 97kg KPD Rookie Upgrade Richmond
My Reasoning: After spending 3 years on the rookie system we either elevate Darrou or move him on. At this stage Darrou has earned an upgrade to the senior list.
Rookies
I'd re-rookie Thomas Miles & Williams and then I'd look at add 3 of the best available kids, ideally a couple of skilled quick hard at it ball users and another project ruckman as well, perhaps even Kovacevic if he goes undrafted.
Depth Chart Heading Into 2015
Rucks: Maric Hampson Cameron rookie ruck
KPF: Riewoldt Griffiths Vickery McBean
KPD: Rance Chaplin Astbury Darrou
KPP: Goddard
Forwards: McDonough S.Edwards Knights Lloyd Langford rookie
Defenders: Batchelor Petterd Dea Houli Morris McIntosh Laverde Williams(r) rookie
Midfielders: Cotchin Deledio Martin Vlastuin Jackson Ellis Conca Miles(r) Lennon Miller Thomas(r) Grigg O'Hanlon Gordon Arnot Helbig
Looking at that list it gives us a nice spread right across the list, developing rucks/KPPs and good depth through the medium sized players. Hopefully this sort of off season plan is more keenly received by others.
- Jun 9, 2012
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At this stage I don't think Elton is worthy of a second round pick in the eyes of other clubs. Going from history he'll probably be worth a 3rd round pick. However, his basic attributes makes him an attractive prospect, no doubt our development of his kicking hasn't been that good, letting go of big men on the verge of their prime is risky. Nevertheless, Elton hasn't had much AFL exposure and hasn't been dominating VFL games, so he doesn't have that going for him.
Grimes is an interesting one, was once a very good defender and a reliable and composed offensive weapon. Something tells me that we've ruined him. His value has definitely plummeted.
There are a lot of options in the draft this year. Lots of x-factor players who aren't consistent and players who are long-term projects and also vanilla type players. Firstly i'd like to trade for one of GWS' gun players who aren't getting enough game time. HOWEVER, in no way should we pry them away from GWS with the promise of more AFL games like we did with Grigg. We should be looking at the top teams to poach players.
A better fitness department would also be a good help, and coaches for those who departed and haven't been replaced.
_RT_
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Fair call on Elton but as I said was a pick 26 when drafted and despite not playing at AFL level is a big bodied KPF that could slot straight into the Blues F50 and really straighten them up. It would also allow them to send Henderson to CHB and shore up their D50 as well.
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Let's get someone who can kick the ball very well and plays inside! All the other aspects will be fixed over time 
While the exercise is to get more early selections but I wouldn't getting rid of Grimes as Astbury can be injury prone, while Chaplin can be hit and miss as a 1 on 1 defender. Add to that, there is no guarantee Darrou will get upgraded and/or make it anyway. He is at best a 3rd tall only at AFL level. So bearing this in mind I want more back up than that. Also I think Williams will be delisted, while Foley wont be paid out(but maybe traded). Other than that agree but, this means only the 3 main selections barring trades. Good write up.
_RT_
Not A Minion
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I understand the want to keep some extra back up on the list, but to me it's about taking a calculated risk and using what little value that we do have to trade into a better draft position.
If everyone is fit and in form Grimes IMO is 4th in line for a KPD spot, while he'd be 5th-6th in line as a medium defender behind the likes of Batchelor Houli Dea & Petterd given his lack of offensive game. However to a club like the Saints who are severely lacking in KPD stocks he would be a handy recruit. He'd be able to come in and play FB/CHB from round 1 next year and add some strength to their back line.
With regards to us being left short we do have some cover short term with the likes of Batchelor & McIntosh who could fill a 3rd tall role if needed, while Griffiths has played at CHB in the VFL and even at AFL level. So there are options there to cover and don't forget Goddard coming in as well. Like I said above, too often in the past we've had the opportunity to trade out a player with value but not a key component only to hold onto them and then get nothing for them later on when we did finally part with them.
A few posters have made comment about us being aggressive at the trade table and yet when suggestions get put forward they are against it saying we need to hang on to the players getting offered up. I'd like to see just who posters would offer up to try and get us a couple of extra picks inside the top 30. IMO there isn't that much on the list that we would want to/could afford to part to without hurting the list too much. Like I said it's a calculated gamble to trade out a couple of taller types, but IMO neither of them are first choice players heading into next year.
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Chaplin gets delisted before Grimes, too old and has been/never was when contract expires.
With some of our aging players its pretty easy to list manage for RFC, apart from Lids and possibly Maric when they get iffy on the age front time to be turfed for our new generation.
Last edited:
_RT_
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Given the ruck depth is Maric & Hampson I'd be against trading Vickery as that really would hurt our depth going forward. If we were to draft a ruckman or 2 through the drafts and they showed something in 2015 then I'd look at off loading Vickery if he hasn't pulled his finger out by then. He'd still have some reasonable value on him at that stage.
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We just have to get our 2nd,3rd and 4th round picks right.
That's where our drafting as let us down in the last 5 years
That's where our drafting as let us down in the last 5 years
Its not something a really agree with. 2010 and 2008 are indeed right offs. But 09 looks pretty solid with Griff, Astbury, Grimes and Dea all four have battled serious injuries but are/were starting to bear fruit this year or earlier in Grimes' case. Yes Griff had a shocker on the weekend but so did the whole team has shown this year he is up to it but needs to be persisted with. 2011 its a bit harder to tell but Arnot looks a type and if we actually played him we'd see. Elton is a big KPP and is up and down but certainly has the talent. 2012 looks especially good with Madonna and Mcbean.
2013 was an absolute joke and i was very unhappy at the time picking so many recycled players even if it was late in the draft especially when guys like Templeton, Byrne-Jones, Langdon, Marsh, Charlie Cameron still available. Long term i think Lennon and Miles are great picks though. The Hampson trade is turning into a shocker which is unfortunate, i wasn't against it at the time as his potential is undoubted and often a ruckman forced longterm into the number 1 position has flourished especially around his age, but gee i'd love to have Cameron Giles developing in our VFL team as a long term CHB/FB, was criminally underrated in his draft year.
Tiger_Of_Old
THE_GUN:"Why don't you use your reg acc"7/9/24
Clubs are not fools.
We offer up Vickery on current output>>>>Might aswell keep him.If he improves why get rid of him?
All clubs know of Grimes injury history.3rd rnd at best.
In fact outside the obvious,The cupboard is pretty bare.
We offer up Vickery on current output>>>>Might aswell keep him.If he improves why get rid of him?
All clubs know of Grimes injury history.3rd rnd at best.
In fact outside the obvious,The cupboard is pretty bare.
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Clubs are fools. A certain club took Tambling and Graham, that's proof enough.
Tiger_Of_Old
THE_GUN:"Why don't you use your reg acc"7/9/24
Did the Crws overpay though?
tigs2010
wowing tiger_muff all day every day
Nice write up _RT_
Just a few things I'd add.
I think you might be overrating Grimes and Elton's value.
I've said before I wouldn't trade Grimes because we need the depth. We literally have nothing there. Especially if you want to trade Elton too. I also don't think we'd get a pick above 40-50 for him. His value is to stay at the RFC and hopefully come good.
Elton might get a pick around 30 but what a waste of that 3 years development we put into him. You've got to remember whoever we take to replace him will likely take just as long and then what do we do? Trade them out too?
Personally think Vickery and Batch are where it's at in terms of trade. Keep Vickery if we don't get a high pick or if he starts to play with some heart and effort.
Also on Foley. I don't see the point in paying him out? Firstly, it still counts against the cap. Secondly he's not terrible. Just delist Helbig or someone else instead.
As for the draft picks:
I have a few I'd take over Goddard at 5. Weller, Pickett, Blakely, Brayshaw, Petracca and even Lever. I'd probably go Weller and get a pure mid who can push out onto a wing. Ellis another possibility but I want to see more before I make that call. Petracca the smokey if he continues to thrive in the midfield.
I like the Miller pick.
No way we need to take Darcy Cameron that early IMO.
Mids, mids and more mids please. Then fan them out onto the flanks rather than the other way around.
Just a few things I'd add.
I think you might be overrating Grimes and Elton's value.
I've said before I wouldn't trade Grimes because we need the depth. We literally have nothing there. Especially if you want to trade Elton too. I also don't think we'd get a pick above 40-50 for him. His value is to stay at the RFC and hopefully come good.
Elton might get a pick around 30 but what a waste of that 3 years development we put into him. You've got to remember whoever we take to replace him will likely take just as long and then what do we do? Trade them out too?
Personally think Vickery and Batch are where it's at in terms of trade. Keep Vickery if we don't get a high pick or if he starts to play with some heart and effort.
Also on Foley. I don't see the point in paying him out? Firstly, it still counts against the cap. Secondly he's not terrible. Just delist Helbig or someone else instead.
As for the draft picks:
I have a few I'd take over Goddard at 5. Weller, Pickett, Blakely, Brayshaw, Petracca and even Lever. I'd probably go Weller and get a pure mid who can push out onto a wing. Ellis another possibility but I want to see more before I make that call. Petracca the smokey if he continues to thrive in the midfield.
I like the Miller pick.
No way we need to take Darcy Cameron that early IMO.
Mids, mids and more mids please. Then fan them out onto the flanks rather than the other way around.
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Its an interesting one... Watts was still expected to take a late 1st rounder, Tambling went for an end of 1st round pick 6 years after he was drafted and Polec went for mid teens pick. None apart from Tambling in 2008 showed as much as Vickery has as fwd/ruck a very important part of the game and is still only 23.
_RT_
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As I've said not an expert so appreciate the feedback. I do have a much more aggressive trade/end of season plan in mind and it would depend on how we ended the season as to whether I'd go that way. However I doubt we would go down that path given at this stage Hardwick and co would probably be thinking that they are only a little bit of tinkering away from returning to the 8 next year.
I agree.
Elton I highly doubt will have any trade value, especially a second rounder. I know Carlton would be desperate but I am sure they can find something else, especially if they go looking at GWS. On Grimes, even though I doubt Richmond would trade him(I would) doubt he has much value either. They got Delaney for pick 77 and Bruce for close to nothing. Doubt they would pay a high price for Grimes.
On Foley, think he is finished but I guess you need to keep him on the list if he will take up cap space, not as if our drafting is so great and we are wasting a spot. Plenty of guys can go before him.
Batch to the saints for a 3rd-4th rounder. replace's fisher. or batch and foley for a second rounder, but we pay part (say 1/3rd) of foleys contract. they need the midfield depth too and he'd (and batch) be a walk up start surely
tigs2010
wowing tiger_muff all day every day
I just can't see us getting what you want for those guys. Elton would be a maybe but I think we should hold onto him. I think he could be a very good player. I also think Grimes is at his lowest value, outside of I think we need the depth. 2012 would have been when Grimes had most value and I think Vickery might be in that boat. Has shown a bit before falling off a cliff this year. A team would see that as fixable.
At this stage that's definitely true, obviously though we have the rest of the year to play out before we can properly assess all this. I reckon if Grimes stays fit he'll really show himself a valuable member of our 22, especially with Astbury out. Not as confident about Vickery but hopefully he does the same.
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