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List Mgmt. 2014: The List

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Well step no.1 is to put the obviously walking wounded in for surgery.Guys like Henderson are obviously carrying something.

Step no. 2 is play as many of the kids as are ready now. See if they have it or not. Protracted time at senior level, not 1 match in 1 match out.

Step no. 3 is sort out which of the senior players can go around again. Guys like Simpson are probably good for another couple of years, but there are some who are already on their way out. Big call here is Waite, can play, but will he be effective? We won't get his value in a trade, and I think he might retire if he was given that option.

Step no. 4 is identify talent on the list who might be better off elsewhere. This is not Gibbs, who I feel is coming into his own as a player, but Garlett, Robinson, Watson, Lucas etc. Players who are not fitting into the side completely and might benefit from pursuing opportunities elsewhere.

THIS STEP IS NOT ABOUT TRADE VALUE. Gambling on the draft is still hit and miss, this is about appropriately managing the players futures for both Carlton's and their own benefit. Getting value is important but that is a far later stage, this is about assessing what we want the list to look like, and where these players fit, if at all.

Step no. 5 is identifying players on other lists who we believe we can offer better opportunity. The inverse process to the above, about finding players in situations where they are not 100% happy or being used to their best capability, and identifying whether they can be used better within our organisation.

Step no. 6 is establishing who on the list is not up to the standard required AND whether they are still required anyway. Sometimes you need journeymen to fill a hole, cut and slash and throwing kids to the wolves won't work (See Melbourne). If excess to needs seek to facilitate a transition out of the club, whether to another club, or to a different walk of life.

Step no. 7 having gathered a rough idea of where the club is, and what it now needs into the future. Establish which potential draftees fit these bills. All viable options to be pursued to a reasonable extent. Prioritize fitting the club culture over fitting the clubs needs. Right now we have so many holes to fill it doesn't matter where they play as much as if they can play, and whether they will help re-build the club.

Step no. 8 investigate assistant coaches. Some of our coaches have been around a while and are relatively proven (Laidley, Wiley) but others are more fresh and less reputable (Green, Barker). Look not only into other teams coaches, but into the recently retired, the second tier leagues, school teams etc. Tailor the coaching to the intended coaching direction of the club. NOT to the list. Players should not unduly dictate coaching decisions.

Step no. 9 Big name FA's. Are they viable? will they help? If yes, have a crack, but do not break the bank.

Step no. 10 Re-consolidate. Leadership unit is not invulnerable, but the players need to buy into the clubs direction, need to believe in themselves and the coaches. Keep them in the loop as much as is possible. The club is as much a family as it is a business. Players and other personnel leaving should be treated as extended family (you don't have to like your extended family, but try to respect them).


Step no. 11 Stop breaking my heart. Because I love this club
Click to expand...

The above was posted by myself on the main board. I would like to elaborate:

Step 1 - Putting the injured in for surgery/treatement

Speaks for itself, put those who are playing hurt in for surgery now. Better then exacerbating anything, and definitely better to have them fit for pre-season. I don't view this as tanking or "soft-tanking", rather as good list management. We don't aim to lose, and we never should, but these players aren't playing for anything right now.

Step 2 - Playing the kids

Should be implemented as soon as possible.

Watson: Give him some serious jobs and see if he is up to it. He will not be getting any faster so he has to have the game sense and nous to make up for it. He will only get that by playing at the top level. He is better then VFL so it is time to challenge him

Graham: Each time he has been given a run has seemed to been a bit slow to pick up AFL pace. There will not be a better opportunity to give him a protracted run of games to pick up this experience. Dominates at the lower level, experience at the next is necessary

Lucas: It may beggar belief but I've heard from reports he is doing the hard stuff at VFL. Give him a red hot crack at AFL to do the same. Can play, despite his detractors, and I'd rather hold on to talented players. Who knows, maybe he will have his renaissance?

Holman: Is a goer and I think will be an Armfield replacement (Army is 27!!!). A few games at the next step up can't hurt and I doubt he will be lacking for commitment. I think he will be a bit up and down this year, but he should get his shot, even if it is only 1-2 games

Buckley: Has already made his statement that he deserves to play at AFL. But he is still young, and deserves game time so I've included him here

McInnes: Bring him up when he is ready. More then any other position, defenders need to have AFL experience. The feel for what the truly elite do, and how to stop them is crucial to their development.

Step 3 - Identify the likely retirees

This list feels like it will grow but:

Mclean: Looks out of it, uncommitted and just not useful. If he doesn't want to be here I wish him all the best in the future

Waite: Jarrad is very talented. But he is also looking less and less up to speed. At his best he is very good, but how much of his best is left. I doubt he'll want to retire, but if he does go around again, his contract should be 1 year and reduced in value.

Carazzo: Is contracted for next year. But his form right now is not much better then garbage. Should be back in the VFL and see if he can't get his touch back. If not, I think a frank discussion about his future is in order. Rookie list next year is a good option

Judd: Beg him to stay on.

Step 4 - Identify those who might be better off elsewhere

This is a hard list, because these player do offer something, but are perhaps not the best fit at Carlton right now.

Garlett: From all reports his heart is not in it. A change in scenery might be best for all involved. He is an electrifying talent, and I would be happy to keep him. But it is difficult to deny that he might be best suited looking at other options

Robinson: In a different side, his vigor and efforts might have a far greater impact. Again, I'd happily see him stay here, but if Mitch was offered a better deal elsewhere I would be happy to facilitate any move. I love you Robbo, but the relentless sky balls give me arrhythmia.

Warnock: High production hitout machine, but that's really not helping us that much. Ruckman always have value, and a huge number of them have been moving recently. I rate Kreuzer higher, both for youth and talent. If Robbie got a better offer it might be best to try and develop youth.

Bell: This will undoubtedly not sit well with some. I just cannot see Tom ever fully adapting to AFL. He is a bull, very direct and impactful, but he lacks a certain touch and feel for AFL football. If someone else thinks they can teach him, because I am sceptical, it wouldn't hurt me to see him take the opportunity.

Watson: As above, needs a protracted run at the top level. If he won't get it at Carlton I would not begrudge him moving

Lucas: See Watson

Step 5 - Identify players from other sides to pursue

This is one of the funner exercises:

Tim Membrey (Syd): Talented mid-sized forward stuck behind a talented Sydney line-up.

Hayden Crozier (Fre): Much the same as Membrey, except a higher draft pick and decidedly more exciting. If he was moving there would be plenty of suitors

Kieran Harper (NM): Similiar to Crozier as an exciting mid-sized fwd without ample opportunities. I'd have him behind the other two, but worth investigating

Tom Boyd (GWS): He is stuck behind some extreme talent (Patton, Cameron) and his management will be receiving offers from everywhere. The GWS situation is unsustainable, the only questions are when one of them moves and how much GWS gets in return.

Kristian Jaksch (GWS) : Seems like he is being settled into their side, so unlikely. But I'd ask the question anyhow

Josh Green (BL): With the exodus of small forwards, it might be worth asking around. Josh is a Tassie boy, so we offer him a home closer to home and perhaps more opportunity. I like him as a junior and think he is the sort of fringe player worth inquiring about

The field is larger. This is mostly off the top of my head

Step 6 - Identify who is not up to standard on the list:

OK, this one will look rough:

Tom Temay - Second year player, but he needs to show something soon.

Sam Rowe - I like Sam, he certainly tries hard and can play a negating role. But he fumbles the ball frequently, hasn't the tidiest disposal and can't stop the true elite. He's a journeyman filling a role and I'm happy to keep him for now, but I'm not under the illusion that he is a star. Reminds me of Lewis Roberts-Thomson.

Dennis Armfield - Runs fast. When given the right negating roles can shut down opponents. Can kick a goal. Honestly though at 27 he has either peaked or won't be improving, fills a role but he is not a star and is the sort of fringe player who should be getting replaced by the next generation sooner rather than later.

Jaryd Cachia - I see considerable promise with Jaryd actually. I think he has pretty good disposal on the outside and has an excellent work ethic. But he is on the periphery, and not unlike Dennis, is the sort of player we should be replacing with the next gen. I think he could be better then Curnow for us and I'd like to see him get the opportunity

Ed Curnow - To be frank he has always been a limited player, and that's fine, provided he plays to his strengths. Tackles hard and a lot, can definitely tag and is generally the sort of meat and potatoes every side needs to tick over. Between him, Cachia, Carazzo and Armfield I feel as though we have too many negative players on the list, and only two should stay. Ed might be leading the pack atm, but that position is tenuous if his disposal continues to be poor

Cameron Wood - Insurance policy and VFL ruckman. Not a great expense and fills a need, so probably safe, but he hasn't exactly thrilled me. From reports tends to beat who he should at VFL level, but not much more, which makes me think he is a short term solution and we need to be looking at drafting in a new ruck.

Step 7 - Potential Draftees

Another fun stage, projecting first pick ~5:

NOTE: I am not a draft watcher and the below is a basic effort to correlate recognized talent/likely position with our needs. At this point the top 3 looks like Wright/Durdin/McCartin all of whom are KPP.

Christian Petracca - Quality mid who can go forward and works well on the inside. From the above reading it will be observed I think we have a surplus of negative players who don't hurt the opposition, Christian would go some way to alleviating that problem.

Hugh Goddard - Flexible KPP, but from what I'm reading perhaps more of a forward then defender. We need KPP period so any of this years intake will be looked at seriously

Tom Lamb - Quasi-KPP/Mid, can go through the middle and get good numbers and kick goals apparently. Sounds good to me (hopefully not another Jarrad Brennan, jack of all trades)

Jake Lever - Key defender, leader, can rebound. Sounds good to me

Angus Brayshaw - Talented mid who is good at stoppages. Given our prospective retirees over the next few years, the midfield needs to be addressed as well, if he is best available we should take best available.

Liam Duggan - Skillful half-back who can play in the middle. Somehow we might need flankers again. Worth considering

Step 8 - Assistant Coaches.

I don't know who, but judging from our on field performance, someone else would be nice

Step 9 - Free Agency

This is a pretty limited field for mine:

James Frawley - Worth asking the question and would certainly help our top end KPP depth. Unlikely to happen, but I'd pursue

David Mundy - Very good player, probably not a good fit given our age profile atm

David Mackay - Midfield talent that could be worth chasing given he isn't super likely to stay where he is. I wouldn't get into a bidding war over him, but at 25 could be a handy acquisition. Definitely under consideration

Shaun Higgins - Durability concerns, has never really strung together a high output season. At 26 is certainly not past it, but injury history makes me think is too much a gamble

Todd Goldstein - Would probably cost too much, but if we traded Robbie, and had extra coin, he might be a big difference maker. Not too sure how Kreuzer would fit in with Goldstein recruited, and I feel like we would be overspending on rucks. Probable pass

Tyson Goldsack - Good role player, might be tempted by re-joining his premiership coach. I wouldn't be directly opposed, and I definitely think our defense needs an overhaul. Maybe

Matt Rosa - Outside player, who has had some good form recently. 27 might be a touch too old for us at the moment, but if the price isn;t too high I wouldn't say no. Under consideration

Step 10 - Re-consolidate

Whatever happens through the list turnover, a focus on group unity is important. The club is as much a family as it is a business. Players and other personnel leaving should be treated as extended family (you don't have to like your extended family, but try to respect them).
 
I hope it isn't too harsh. I'm not saying all the players on some of the above lists are in do or die situations. But we need to consider a lot of these guys not just as individual players, but in relation to the list.

We are as a whole, too old, too slow, too poor with ball in hand and 100% not good enough in the back half of the ground.
 

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Blue and Silver said:
I hope it isn't too harsh. I'm not saying all the players on some of the above lists are in do or die situations. But we need to consider a lot of these guys not just as individual players, but in relation to the list.

We are as a whole, too old, too slow, too poor with ball in hand and 100% not good enough in the back half of the ground.
Click to expand...

Not too harsh, don't forget I'm a bleeding heart.
 
Rowe is doing more than enough to be kept. Other than a bad patch against Hawkins, been a solid player.

Agree on Lucas, should be given time in the guts. A player can build confidence through being put in contested situations often. Wasn't long ago there were doubts on Gibbs with this part of the game.

Lucas and Garlett have trade value. Lucas needs to be given more chance.
 
Hawkins is a bad match up for Rowe.

He isn't very mobile and his strength allows him to win most 1v1 contests with ease.

Rowe will struggle on Tippet for the same reasons. Doesn't make him a bad player just means we know who he is best suited to playing on.
 
Blue and Silver said:
Ed Curnow - To be frank he has always been a limited player, and that's fine, provided he plays to his strengths. Tackles hard and a lot, can definitely tag and is generally the sort of meat and potatoes every side needs to tick over. Between him, Cachia, Carazzo and Armfield I feel as though we have too many negative players on the list, and only two should stay. Ed might be leading the pack atm, but that position is tenuous if his disposal continues to be poor.
Click to expand...
IMO if you cut someone who works as absurdly hard as Curnow does you're sending the wrong message to the list.

If I was setting up a GWS Curnow would be the type of player I'd pay overs to get. Then you can say to any cocky 18 year olds, "to be a star you have to be able to break a tag. So lets see you outrun Ed". Then laugh as Curnow eats them for breakfast
 
Adelaide will take Waite as he is a Carlton player. End of story. And they'll think it will make them premiership favourites. Consolation for missing out on Gibbs.
 
Blue and Silver said:
The above was posted by myself on the main board. I would like to elaborate:

Step 1 - Putting the injured in for surgery/treatement

Speaks for itself, put those who are playing hurt in for surgery now. Better then exacerbating anything, and definitely better to have them fit for pre-season. I don't view this as tanking or "soft-tanking", rather as good list management. We don't aim to lose, and we never should, but these players aren't playing for anything right now.

Step 2 - Playing the kids

Should be implemented as soon as possible.

Watson: Give him some serious jobs and see if he is up to it. He will not be getting any faster so he has to have the game sense and nous to make up for it. He will only get that by playing at the top level. He is better then VFL so it is time to challenge him

Graham: Each time he has been given a run has seemed to been a bit slow to pick up AFL pace. There will not be a better opportunity to give him a protracted run of games to pick up this experience. Dominates at the lower level, experience at the next is necessary

Lucas: It may beggar belief but I've heard from reports he is doing the hard stuff at VFL. Give him a red hot crack at AFL to do the same. Can play, despite his detractors, and I'd rather hold on to talented players. Who knows, maybe he will have his renaissance?

Holman: Is a goer and I think will be an Armfield replacement (Army is 27!!!). A few games at the next step up can't hurt and I doubt he will be lacking for commitment. I think he will be a bit up and down this year, but he should get his shot, even if it is only 1-2 games

Buckley: Has already made his statement that he deserves to play at AFL. But he is still young, and deserves game time so I've included him here

McInnes: Bring him up when he is ready. More then any other position, defenders need to have AFL experience. The feel for what the truly elite do, and how to stop them is crucial to their development.

Step 3 - Identify the likely retirees

This list feels like it will grow but:

Mclean: Looks out of it, uncommitted and just not useful. If he doesn't want to be here I wish him all the best in the future

Waite: Jarrad is very talented. But he is also looking less and less up to speed. At his best he is very good, but how much of his best is left. I doubt he'll want to retire, but if he does go around again, his contract should be 1 year and reduced in value.

Carazzo: Is contracted for next year. But his form right now is not much better then garbage. Should be back in the VFL and see if he can't get his touch back. If not, I think a frank discussion about his future is in order. Rookie list next year is a good option

Judd: Beg him to stay on.

Step 4 - Identify those who might be better off elsewhere

This is a hard list, because these player do offer something, but are perhaps not the best fit at Carlton right now.

Garlett: From all reports his heart is not in it. A change in scenery might be best for all involved. He is an electrifying talent, and I would be happy to keep him. But it is difficult to deny that he might be best suited looking at other options

Robinson: In a different side, his vigor and efforts might have a far greater impact. Again, I'd happily see him stay here, but if Mitch was offered a better deal elsewhere I would be happy to facilitate any move. I love you Robbo, but the relentless sky balls give me arrhythmia.

Warnock: High production hitout machine, but that's really not helping us that much. Ruckman always have value, and a huge number of them have been moving recently. I rate Kreuzer higher, both for youth and talent. If Robbie got a better offer it might be best to try and develop youth.

Bell: This will undoubtedly not sit well with some. I just cannot see Tom ever fully adapting to AFL. He is a bull, very direct and impactful, but he lacks a certain touch and feel for AFL football. If someone else thinks they can teach him, because I am sceptical, it wouldn't hurt me to see him take the opportunity.

Watson: As above, needs a protracted run at the top level. If he won't get it at Carlton I would not begrudge him moving

Lucas: See Watson

Step 5 - Identify players from other sides to pursue

This is one of the funner exercises:

Tim Membrey (Syd): Talented mid-sized forward stuck behind a talented Sydney line-up.

Hayden Crozier (Fre): Much the same as Membrey, except a higher draft pick and decidedly more exciting. If he was moving there would be plenty of suitors

Kieran Harper (NM): Similiar to Crozier as an exciting mid-sized fwd without ample opportunities. I'd have him behind the other two, but worth investigating

Tom Boyd (GWS): He is stuck behind some extreme talent (Patton, Cameron) and his management will be receiving offers from everywhere. The GWS situation is unsustainable, the only questions are when one of them moves and how much GWS gets in return.

Kristian Jaksch (GWS) : Seems like he is being settled into their side, so unlikely. But I'd ask the question anyhow

Josh Green (BL): With the exodus of small forwards, it might be worth asking around. Josh is a Tassie boy, so we offer him a home closer to home and perhaps more opportunity. I like him as a junior and think he is the sort of fringe player worth inquiring about

The field is larger. This is mostly off the top of my head

Step 6 - Identify who is not up to standard on the list:

OK, this one will look rough:

Tom Temay - Second year player, but he needs to show something soon.

Sam Rowe - I like Sam, he certainly tries hard and can play a negating role. But he fumbles the ball frequently, hasn't the tidiest disposal and can't stop the true elite. He's a journeyman filling a role and I'm happy to keep him for now, but I'm not under the illusion that he is a star. Reminds me of Lewis Roberts-Thomson.

Dennis Armfield - Runs fast. When given the right negating roles can shut down opponents. Can kick a goal. Honestly though at 27 he has either peaked or won't be improving, fills a role but he is not a star and is the sort of fringe player who should be getting replaced by the next generation sooner rather than later.

Jaryd Cachia - I see considerable promise with Jaryd actually. I think he has pretty good disposal on the outside and has an excellent work ethic. But he is on the periphery, and not unlike Dennis, is the sort of player we should be replacing with the next gen. I think he could be better then Curnow for us and I'd like to see him get the opportunity

Ed Curnow - To be frank he has always been a limited player, and that's fine, provided he plays to his strengths. Tackles hard and a lot, can definitely tag and is generally the sort of meat and potatoes every side needs to tick over. Between him, Cachia, Carazzo and Armfield I feel as though we have too many negative players on the list, and only two should stay. Ed might be leading the pack atm, but that position is tenuous if his disposal continues to be poor

Cameron Wood - Insurance policy and VFL ruckman. Not a great expense and fills a need, so probably safe, but he hasn't exactly thrilled me. From reports tends to beat who he should at VFL level, but not much more, which makes me think he is a short term solution and we need to be looking at drafting in a new ruck.

Step 7 - Potential Draftees

Another fun stage, projecting first pick ~5:

NOTE: I am not a draft watcher and the below is a basic effort to correlate recognized talent/likely position with our needs. At this point the top 3 looks like Wright/Durdin/McCartin all of whom are KPP.

Christian Petracca - Quality mid who can go forward and works well on the inside. From the above reading it will be observed I think we have a surplus of negative players who don't hurt the opposition, Christian would go some way to alleviating that problem.

Hugh Goddard - Flexible KPP, but from what I'm reading perhaps more of a forward then defender. We need KPP period so any of this years intake will be looked at seriously

Tom Lamb - Quasi-KPP/Mid, can go through the middle and get good numbers and kick goals apparently. Sounds good to me (hopefully not another Jarrad Brennan, jack of all trades)

Jake Lever - Key defender, leader, can rebound. Sounds good to me

Angus Brayshaw - Talented mid who is good at stoppages. Given our prospective retirees over the next few years, the midfield needs to be addressed as well, if he is best available we should take best available.

Liam Duggan - Skillful half-back who can play in the middle. Somehow we might need flankers again. Worth considering

Step 8 - Assistant Coaches.

I don't know who, but judging from our on field performance, someone else would be nice

Step 9 - Free Agency

This is a pretty limited field for mine:

James Frawley - Worth asking the question and would certainly help our top end KPP depth. Unlikely to happen, but I'd pursue

David Mundy - Very good player, probably not a good fit given our age profile atm

David Mackay - Midfield talent that could be worth chasing given he isn't super likely to stay where he is. I wouldn't get into a bidding war over him, but at 25 could be a handy acquisition. Definitely under consideration

Shaun Higgins - Durability concerns, has never really strung together a high output season. At 26 is certainly not past it, but injury history makes me think is too much a gamble

Todd Goldstein - Would probably cost too much, but if we traded Robbie, and had extra coin, he might be a big difference maker. Not too sure how Kreuzer would fit in with Goldstein recruited, and I feel like we would be overspending on rucks. Probable pass

Tyson Goldsack - Good role player, might be tempted by re-joining his premiership coach. I wouldn't be directly opposed, and I definitely think our defense needs an overhaul. Maybe

Matt Rosa - Outside player, who has had some good form recently. 27 might be a touch too old for us at the moment, but if the price isn;t too high I wouldn't say no. Under consideration

Step 10 - Re-consolidate

Whatever happens through the list turnover, a focus on group unity is important. The club is as much a family as it is a business. Players and other personnel leaving should be treated as extended family (you don't have to like your extended family, but try to respect them).
Click to expand...
yeeeaaahhh I'm going to wait for the movie
 

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He has great hands but his kicking has never gone up a level with him.

When he was at box hill he had good foot skills but just seems to rush himself with it at afl level resulting in either under kicking or floating the ball
 
Cringle said:
Curnows disposal is no different to almost every other Carlton player this year.
Click to expand...
Even in previous years his kicking is his let down but he has enough upside to warrant keeping for sure.

Nothing to say he can't improve his kicking
 
Curnow stays. Especially if we are fettig rid of McLean and Carrazzo.....and Armfield....and Cachia......and anyone who is a tagger....and the water girl....and the guy who tells the umpirea about subs....and the guy who invented ths phrase Navy Blue.....
 

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Liam Pickering (Jeffy's manager) expects Jeffy to stay.

So I guess it's up to whether the club has the same idea.
 
The Bighouse said:
Liam Pickering doesn't have a very good track record with his clients staying when asked what he thinks. Gaz & Bud. He works the best deal for his clients, that's for sure.
Click to expand...
Except neither of those were a trade situation.
 

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