2018 general discussions

[OB11]

What pissed me most about Weller's trade was that Weller's camp went public that Suns guaranteed the trade. From that time on Clayton stood no chance. Another point - was guaranteeing trade smart move by Suns? I don't think so. A bit amateurish by Evans. We could have both Weller and LDU. It still hurts me

Yes - I thought as soon as I heard it live that it seemed odd and not normal. You don't usually have a player going to the media and undermining the trade position of his new club.

 

[OB11]

Wasn't Ablett's forte

Nor his best buddy Aaron Hall. Hopefully he can break his bad habits now that he can't point to Ablett and use him as an example of selfish play.

 

[Jirik13]

Our blokes constantly are physically bullied off the ball because they are simply smaller and skinnier.
There’s been no mention of bulking up and hitting the weights in the off season, it’s good to hear they are practicing tackling and wrestling more though.
My expectations are very low for next year.
We could get the wooden spoon next year and I’d be probably satisfied if they put in Week in and week out like Brisbane did last season.

Dew mentioned that 3rd year under Cordy should help with building bodies. Lions actually were actually blown off the park more often than Suns the last year. But I agree the second half of the season Lions showed promise while Suns fell off miserably. Despite all of the issues, Suns were surprisingly only 1 game out of top 8 before round 13 terrible home loss to Carlton. From optimistic view, one would hope that Dew will have similar effect on players as Fagan had on Lions - early signs are encouraging but let's see if Dew can actually coach games. No Guz and Rocket sagas should definitely help as well as the first preseason in proper gym facilities. I could easily foresee 30-35 players fighting for best 22. Yes, we are the youngest team but mainly because of players 35-45. From pessimistic view, it will take some time to learn game plan and it is still probably 1-2 year to go for our young midfielders to fully develop.

 

[17er]

What pissed me most about Weller's trade was that Weller's camp went public that Suns guaranteed the trade. From that time on Clayton stood no chance. Another point - was guaranteeing trade smart move by Suns? I don't think so. A bit amateurish by Evans. We could have both Weller and LDU. It still hurts me

The thing with trades like this is that you need to give it some time. Grievances of upset fans are well established and there's nothing new in what you're saying. Another thing that few consider is that it wasn't a straight swap because the Suns also picked up pick #41 and drafted Charlie Ballard, which along with Weller's career will always need to factored in. The Dockers drafted Brayshaw, but we'll never know who the Suns would have drafted. Let's have a look at how a blooded former 1st round pick compares with an unblooded skinny teenager after a year.

The Judd Trade was viewed as a great win for Carlton and the end of an era for West Coast. The Eagles got an elite Forward in Kennedy, a workhorse 200 gamer in Masten (who came at Pick #3 and is viewed a bit of a dud) plus a real dud at #20 in 2 gamer Notte. Chris Judd went to Carlton and played enough games so that the Blues have given him a job for life in the hope they can recoup their losses by getting his 6 year old son in the 2030 Draft as a Father/Son (assuming he doesn't choose the Eagles). Every year the papers do a poll about the Judd trade. At the time, it was 80-20% that the Blues had got the best deal, but now it's the other way around.

Factor in all the trades the Suns made for the wantaway players over the past few years and the result is a young talented list hampered by inexperience. The strategy has changed since the early days, with the emphasis on grooming local talent and drafting guys least likely to become sooks when their rookie contracts expire. Weller makes sense because he's an Academy graduate and was a first round draft pick in the first place. Only time will tell if he makes the trade look like a winner.

 

[Jirik13]

The thing with trades like this is that you need to give it some time. Grievances of upset fans are well established and there's nothing new in what you're saying. Another thing that few consider is that it wasn't a straight swap because the Suns also picked up pick #41 and drafted Charlie Ballard, which along with Weller's career will always need to factored in. The Dockers drafted Brayshaw, but we'll never know who the Suns would have drafted. Let's have a look at how a blooded former 1st round pick compares with an unblooded skinny teenager after a year.

The Judd Trade was viewed as a great win for Carlton and the end of an era for West Coast. The Eagles got an elite Forward in Kennedy, a workhorse 200 gamer in Masten (who came at Pick #3 and is viewed a bit of a dud) plus a real dud at #20 in 2 gamer Notte. Chris Judd went to Carlton and played enough games so that the Blues have given him a job for life in the hope they can recoup their losses by getting his 6 year old son in the 2030 Draft as a Father/Son (assuming he doesn't choose the Eagles). Every year the papers do a poll about the Judd trade. At the time, it was 80-20% that the Blues had got the best deal, but now it's the other way around.

Factor in all the trades the Suns made for the wantaway players over the past few years and the result is a young talented list hampered by inexperience. The strategy has changed since the early days, with the emphasis on grooming local talent and drafting guys least likely to become sooks when their rookie contracts expire. Weller makes sense because he's an Academy graduate and was a first round draft pick in the first place. Only time will tell if he makes the trade look like a winner.

My point is that if Suns/Weller camp were smart we could have both Weller and pick 2. Nothing against Weller, he is a very fine player. Will he be elite? Too early to say. Regarding Ballard, we may got a steal. I had a look at his draft video. He really excites me. I actually also watched Lynch's draft video and both looked very similar! Ballard, currently 196 cm grew 15 cm in the last year, has great mark, can play all positions. Early reports from training are very encouraging.

 

[Mini GF]

My point is that if Suns/Weller camp were smart we could have both Weller and pick 2. Nothing against Weller, he is a very fine player. Will he be elite? Too early to say. Regarding Ballard, we may got a steal. I had a look at his draft video. He really excites me. I actually also watched Lynch's draft video and both looked very similar! Ballard, currently 196 cm grew 15 cm in the last year, has great mark, can play all positions. Early reports from training are very encouraging.

You are spot on for mine and there are a few in here that agree with you, what happened in the last couple of hours on the last day of Trade Week was nothing short of a train wreck. We were played off the park and thanks to the loose lips of Weller and Mark Evans falling hopelessly in love with Weller, Scott Clayton was made to look like a Royal Joke and I’m not sure he will ever come back from it.
I really don’t want to talk about it anymore because it’s now water under the bridge but anytime someone comes in and tries to make out that it was anything other than a train wreck I will probably bite because I can’t stand revisionism of history.

 

[17er]

You are spot on for mine and there are a few in here that agree with you, what happened in the last couple of hours on the last day of Trade Week was nothing short of a train wreck. We were played off the park and thanks to the loose lips of Weller and Mark Evans falling hopelessly in love with Weller, Scott Clayton was made to look like a Royal Joke and I’m not sure he will ever come back from it.
I really don’t want to talk about it anymore because it’s now water under the bridge but anytime someone comes in and tries to make out that it was anything other than a train wreck I will probably bite because I can’t stand revisionism of history.

There's no doubting it was a shock and it has been widely reported that the Suns overpaid in the eyes of the AFL Media. I tend to look at drafts and trades in their totality, which is certainly how Evans and Dew instructed Clayton in terms of getting the best out of an inherited situation. With 4 first rounders from a year earlier, the Suns list didn't need all those 2nd round picks which just kept building up with Saad and Ablett needing to be traded. With the compo pick coming in at #19 for the Cats to give us for Gaz and the Bombers giving us fair value for Saad, we were well ahead on our previous draft position. The pick trade was a shock to everyone, especially when it relies on the Weagles to tank, but an extra first rounder in 2018 was a definite need compared to having to delist heaps of players to spend on a handful of 2nd rounders. Any overall advantage we might have had was squandered in dealing the #2 pick, but the returns have yet to be measured.

To take a different tack, there aren't many other clubs as active as the Suns in the Draft. The enforced wheeling and dealing over the past few seasons left the new regime in an uncomfortable position because they simply didn't want that many picks and the Trade period landed them with 2 more than they already had. The West Coast pick trade was a calculated risk based on how many players have retired at the Eagles and their possible slide down the ladder. The Weller Trade was risky, but not as risky as gambling on a pick #2 to be a champion. I've had this convo with another forum member and the past 20 or so drafts have been a 50% chance of getting a dud. Sure, there have been some champions and some very good players, but the relative certainty of Weller and what it means for changing the club culture and building the list won me over more than wondering what might have been.

 

[Dammit]

if Weller were in the draft this year, what pick would he go?
i'd argue pick 1.

you guys will see.

 

[SunsBhoy]

if Weller were in the draft this year, what pick would he go?
i'd argue pick 1.

you guys will see.

I don’t think that is the argument in what Weller is worth , it’s the fact we gave up pick 2 when we could of had pick 2 and Weller , before we dropped our bundle at the trade table . Looking at Wellers numbers he has been on a linear progression stats wise , it’s weather or not he can reach that elite bracket , after watching the beach session Friday you can tell he is one of the fittest blokes on our team , it’s now a case to see where Dew thinks his best position is and turning him into a elite talent.


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[Dammit]

I don’t think that is the argument in what Weller is worth , it’s the fact we gave up pick 2 when we could of had pick 2 and Weller , before we dropped our bundle at the trade table . Looking at Wellers numbers he has been on a linear progression stats wise , it’s weather or not he can reach that elite bracket , after watching the beach session Friday you can tell he is one of the fittest blokes on our team , it’s now a case to see where Dew thinks his best position is and turning him into a elite talent.


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fair shout. in all fairness though I think actually 100% of the blame lies with the Weller camp for making the guarantee public as opposed to our shortcomings as a club at the trade table.

I'm also pretty adamant that there is some form of gentleman's agreement in place between us and Freo. whether they felt they paid overs for Harley and this was the return favour, or maybe we are yet to see it. but i don't think it's unreasonable to believe there has been/will be a future 'nod' back to us.

 

[Jirik13]

fair shout. in all fairness though I think actually 100% of the blame lies with the Weller camp for making the guarantee public as opposed to our shortcomings as a club at the trade table.

I'm also pretty adamant that there is some form of gentleman's agreement in place between us and Freo. whether they felt they paid overs for Harley and this was the return favour, or maybe we are yet to see it. but i don't think it's unreasonable to believe there has been/will be a future 'nod' back to us.

Weller's manager aim was to get Weller to Suns. By making the guarantee public he accomplished that. Still angry with him. Fremantle screw us in both trades. I hope Suns will get them one day. Actually, now when Harley is almost done that trade does not look as bad. I believe we ended up in the end with Fiorini.

 

[Happy Idiot]

I'm not sure the premise that we could have had Weller AND pick number two is that clear-cut. Other variables always come into play as negotiations change.

Say, for instance, we held our ground on not giving pick 2 — we may have ended up waiting another year until Weller comes out of contract. No problem, but what if that extra year turns nasty form-wise and costs us Tom Lynch. Weller clearly represented our best shot at a working midfield, NOW. And that represents value in a year we have our greatest asset coming out of contract.

 

[Scotty_222]

if Weller were in the draft this year, what pick would he go?
i'd argue pick 1.

you guys will see.

What are you basing that on though?

Potential?
what’s he’s produced in the last 2 years?

 

[Scotty_222]

I'm not sure the premise that we could have had Weller AND pick number two is that clear-cut. Other variables always come into play as negotiations change.

Say, for instance, we held our ground on not giving pick 2 — we may have ended up waiting another year until Weller comes out of contract. No problem, but what if that extra year turns nasty form-wise and costs us Tom Lynch. Weller clearly represented our best shot at a working midfield, NOW. And that represents value in a year we have our greatest asset coming out of contract.

Next year we have Eagles first pick in what shapes to be a super super draft.
If we end up down the bottom and so do the eagles we could be in a better shape to pick up better players over the long run.

 

[Jirik13]

Next year we have Eagles first pick in what shapes to be a super super draft.
If we end up down the bottom and so do the eagles we could be in a better shape to pick up better players over the long run.

We may get another top 5 pick if Lynch leaves

 

[Scotty_222]

We may get another top 5 pick if Lynch leaves

2!

 

[Iva Bigun]

We shat the bed in the trade period but it’s done, we can’t change it. But I hope we keep our powder dry for Freo at the trade table as they they screwed us with the Harley deal (karma) and again with the Weller deal. The next WA boy going back should cost a kings random

 

[Dammit]

We shat the bed in the trade period but it’s done, we can’t change it. But I hope we keep our powder dry for Freo at the trade table as they they screwed us with the Harley deal (karma) and again with the Weller deal. The next WA boy going back should cost a kings random

totally valid opinion. as is the opinion that we actually had quite a good trade period. time will validate either argument. or not... maybe we break even. who knows. to me the most important thing is 'was our strategy sound'. i believe we are all pulling in the same direction, which is the most important part imho.

 

[Dammit]

What are you basing that on though?

Potential?
what’s he’s produced in the last 2 years?

both potential and linear progression/improvement over time in the one's.

 

[17er]

Let's do this properly. Redraft of 2014

1 Paddy McCartin - 22 games, 22 goals
2 Christian Petracca - 39 games
3 Angus Brayshaw - 36 games
4 Jarrod Pickett - 10 games
5 Jordan De Goey - 50 games
6 Caleb Marchbank - 23 games (traded after 7 games at GWS)
7 Paul Ahern - bust, traded
8 Peter Wright - 42 games, 59 goals
9 Darcy Moore - 47 games, 58 goals
10 Nakia Cockatoo - 32 games
11 Liam Duggan - 46 games
12 Corey Ellis - 23 games
13 Lachie Weller - 47 games
14 Jake Lever - 56 games
15 Jarrod Garlett - 17 games bust
16 Sam Durdin - 8 games
17 Kyle Langford - 31 games
18 Isaac Heeney - 58 games, 60 goals
19 Blaine Boekhorst - 25 games
20 Jayden Laverde - 23 games
21 Hugh Goddard - 9 games bust

adammania9 has a redraft with Peter Wright at #6, Touk Miller at #4, and Lachie Weller at #10 and I'm inclined to agree with him. Considering the Garlett bust and trading #2 pick, the Suns have spent 3 first round picks on 3 first round value players who go into their 4th AFL season.

What's your redraft order?

 

[17er]

My redraft

1 Isaac Heeney - 58 games, 60 goals
2 Jake Lever - 56 games
3 Darcy Moore - 47 games, 58 goals
4 Peter Wright - 42 games, 59 goals
5 Jordan De Goey - 50 games
6 Touk Miller* - 60 games
7 Liam Duggan - 46 games
8 Lachie Weller - 47 games
9 Paddy McCartin - 22 games, 22 goals
10 Christian Petracca - 39 games
11 Nakia Cockatoo - 32 games
12 Corey Ellis - 23 games
13 Angus Brayshaw - 36 games
14 Kyle Langford - 31 games
15 Blaine Boekhorst - 25 games
16 Caleb Marchbank - 23 games (traded after 7 games at GWS)
17 Jayden Laverde - 23 games
18 Jarrod Garlett - 17 games bust
19 Sam Durdin - 8 games
20 Jarrod Pickett - 10 games
21 Hugh Goddard - 9 games bust

Paul Ahern - bust, traded
*Miller taken #29

 

[TheSunGod]

2!

 

[Dammit]

My redraft

1 Isaac Heeney - 58 games, 60 goals
2 Jake Lever - 56 games
3 Darcy Moore - 47 games, 58 goals
4 Peter Wright - 42 games, 59 goals
5 Jordan De Goey - 50 games
6 Touk Miller* - 60 games
7 Liam Duggan - 46 games
8 Lachie Weller - 47 games
9 Paddy McCartin - 22 games, 22 goals
10 Christian Petracca - 39 games
11 Nakia Cockatoo - 32 games
12 Corey Ellis - 23 games
13 Angus Brayshaw - 36 games
14 Kyle Langford - 31 games
15 Blaine Boekhorst - 25 games
16 Caleb Marchbank - 23 games (traded after 7 games at GWS)
17 Jayden Laverde - 23 games
18 Jarrod Garlett - 17 games bust
19 Sam Durdin - 8 games
20 Jarrod Pickett - 10 games
21 Hugh Goddard - 9 games bust

Paul Ahern - bust, traded
*Miller taken #29

sorry but that's ridiculous. no one could've taken Heeney that early because he was locked into Sydney.

redrafts are imbecilic anyway given the variables. bit... to indulge... Moore that high is loopy and Goddard is not a bust.

 

[Scotty_222]

My redraft

1 Isaac Heeney - 58 games, 60 goals
2 Jake Lever - 56 games
3 Darcy Moore - 47 games, 58 goals
4 Peter Wright - 42 games, 59 goals
5 Jordan De Goey - 50 games
6 Touk Miller* - 60 games
7 Liam Duggan - 46 games
8 Lachie Weller - 47 games
9 Paddy McCartin - 22 games, 22 goals
10 Christian Petracca - 39 games
11 Nakia Cockatoo - 32 games
12 Corey Ellis - 23 games
13 Angus Brayshaw - 36 games
14 Kyle Langford - 31 games
15 Blaine Boekhorst - 25 games
16 Caleb Marchbank - 23 games (traded after 7 games at GWS)
17 Jayden Laverde - 23 games
18 Jarrod Garlett - 17 games bust
19 Sam Durdin - 8 games
20 Jarrod Pickett - 10 games
21 Hugh Goddard - 9 games bust

Paul Ahern - bust, traded
*Miller taken #29

You’re kidding me?

Boekhorst was delisted? You’ve redrafted in at 15?

No Mitch McGovern?
No Connor Blakely?
No Harrison Andrews?
No Caleb Daniel?

I’d have another crack at it.. properly

 

[17er]

You’re kidding me?

Boekhorst was delisted? You’ve redrafted in at 15?

No Mitch McGovern?
No Connor Blakely?
No Harrison Andrews?
No Caleb Daniel?

I’d have another crack at it.. properly

I invited everybody to have a proper crack. That was the whole point of the exercise. I've only included Miller in my top 10 and been lazy about the rest. I agree that there are several guys from the later rounds who look more like first rounders now. Toby McLean too.

I've got Weller at #8, but value him at #2 for 2017, even though I'd have chosen Wright and Miller before him at #8 and #15.

Focus, lads. The aim isn't to criticise each other, it's to make a better redraft.