Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion

[gbatman]

I'm not talking about premium picks here and not all about small goal-kickers alone. Just goal-kickers would have been fine.
Given we had plenty of talls and back-men coming through -

Glass-McCasker or Papley/Tipungwuti?
LeBois we tried, but failed.
Shaw and O'Shea or Mihocek?

All I'm saying is that if you're not looking for something you won't find it.
I've said enough about our Rookie picks and what's done is done. Guess we've learned and will try and rectify our list balance now.

When we drafted plenty of talls I don't think we accounted for so many of them to work out and to find what we already had by changing their positions. The usual thing is to draft more than you need and some won't work out and you cut them off and keep the best of them. Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Marchbank all came unproven and all worked out. Kerr is alright but will be trimmed as not being as good as the mentioned. Then we have unearthed Jones and Casboult for defensive positions. Macreadie also exceeded expectations by playing games early before succumbing to a lot of injuries. So we played the percentages and did better than usual. Had Jones or Casboult not bobbed up we would be crying out for a tall defender so that was a bit of luck. Only reason we have plenty of talls is because we got lucky and did really well, probably better than expected with our hit rate and finding out we have had a couple who jut needed a position change.

Plenty of backmen, not sure on that, we do when we don't have injuries but last year we didn't have plenty of backmen, we struggled badly. Luckily we got Newman and are getting a lot out of older players like Thomas (who we turned into a backman last year) and Simpson. Those two will probably be gone soon and then we won't have plenty of backmen, we'll be short again, especially if Docherty and Williamson can't get up. We actually need to find another quick smaller defender IMO. The prospect of Docherty and/or Williamson not getting up and Thomas/Simpson succumbing to age soon is very real and in reserve is Stoker and Schumacher who are both really raw. So we probably have the right amount of backmen with some upcoming problems to resolve.

Yeah we didn't do well in the rookie drafts. There are a couple of players you mentioned who are good players but truth is every club overlooked them until the rookie draft. Rookie drafts are lotteries. They are lucky dips. Clubs get pats on the back for drafting good players out of it but truth is they got lucky. Those players got picked after every club had 4-7 draft picks. No one thought they would turn out as good as they have. They were punts that luckily turned out really good. We have had some luck, but not in this area.

We've taken a lot of punts on small forwards over the years and haven't found much. What we have isn't nothing but it's nothing special.

End of the day we are in the mid part of our rebuild. All the real good clubs I have mentioned didn't have the small forwards on their list mid way through their rebuild either. Richmond, Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood etc. They have gun small forwards but you go back 2 or 3 years prior to them arriving, those small forwards were mostly not on their list. They built more important positions and added them last and that is important IMO. To win it you need everyone developed and mature at the same time and if you can just go out and take small forwards from other clubs or draft them with premium picks after the defence, talls and midfield is built and they only take a year or two to develop then that's the way to go and we have two or three years of building before we are a premiership contender.

We have been looking, we haven't found it. Wright, Sumner, Gallucci, Cuningham, Lamb, Pickett, LeBois, Lang, Garlett, Gibbons, Fasolo and Owies have all come in during the rebuild to play the small forward role. Fisher, Murphy, SPS, Curnow have been given small opportunities and DeLuca will get a chance as well. I'd suggest we have been looking, we have just been addressing more pressing needs and really making sure we get that right first and we still have some more pressing needs to cover IMO unless we are bringing in guns.

Mistakes have not been made, we just haven't had much luck with the lucky dip yet and we haven't got to the stage where we can make it more of a sure thing and take small forwards from the draft with decent picks.

Geelong are a good example, built back up again, needed small forwards, became able to move Ablett forward. Got Dahlhaus as a free agent. Traded for Rohan. So it can be easy to resolve. Richmond hit the draft late in their rebuild and used some premium picks to resolve the small forward issue but also got lucky getting some pressure forwards late.

It doesn't matter how we get them and it doesn't matter that we don't have them now. What does matter is that we get them at the right time, when the rest of the team is sorted and ready to play some serious football and we have a complete team of high quality, well developed players mostly in their prime.

We will be right when it counts, that's my feel, we just haven't got lucky yet and haven't come to the point where we can use premium assets to spend on small forwards.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Rance, Jeremy McGovern and Harris Andrews are stars also. If we brought them all in for our draft picks last year it'd still be a misallocation of draft picks and cap space.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the Mitch McGovern error.

He may very well end up a star. But would you rather Papley or him right now?

Bit of a pointless question TBH. No one here mentioned Papley as a recruit last year at the time we were making moves for McGovern, who wanted to come to a two win team.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Bit of a pointless question TBH. No one here mentioned Papley as a recruit last year at the time we were making moves for McGovern, who wanted to come to a two win team.

You've missed the point that's why. It's a discussion about recruiting for needs. Papley is just an example of the position (i.e. KPP vs FP). Re-read the discussion for context.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Why not!? This is what BigFooty is about. And it's a List Management thread lol

Point taken though, I'm very happy too. A win early in the weekend makes the rest of the weekend so enjoyable. A win on a Sunday makes me happy on the Monday. It's weird but footy winning is good for my personal mental health (I am not in health at all so this is not medical advice...perhaps medical dadvice lol)

Yah I know...I just dont worry about the could or should have beens. Its just the way of it.
And yes I agree it affects me just the same.....maybe shouldn't because there is much more to life than footy but it sure does......

 

[gbatman]

I can’t understand why they are the last piece of the puzzle when they are clearly so important in today’s game. Sure they were the finishing touches to West Coast but maybe they cost themselves flags because they didn’t invest in them earlier. They also won it without their best mid, Ruckman and a gun defender, maybe if they had small forwards a year or two earlier with those other guys in the side they would’ve won another premiership but by overlooking them they missed out.
Also Richmond’s last pieces for their premiership was a Ruckman, a gun mid and another midfielder.
Collingwood’s final pieces seem to be a star mid and KPF and Defenders.
It’s our most glaring weakness, you don’t just overlook it because of some pre-perceived idea of the order to build a list in.
It’s like people who say you draft the talls first. It just makes absolutely no sense unless you have them available. We were unbelievably lucky we started our rebuild and went all out in 2015 so we could take talls in a draft that was loaded with them. If it was the 2014 or 2016 draft class and we went tall we would be an absolute basket case right now. Though it worked out perfectly for us the actual theory could be detrimental if the players aren’t available

Because they take the shortest time to develop. The youngest players in most premiership winning teams are generally the small forwards. Midfielders, defenders, talls all take longer to develop so they come in early. They also tend to be worth more if they are good. Small forwards can come rather cheaply as well.

There's a reason why pretty much all the successful teams add the small forwards last and that is it. We've got plenty of time on our side, we haven't even quite finished rebuilding the midfield and defence yet.

Eagles didn't cost themselves a flag, they just arrived when they were ready to.

Go through Richmond's 2017 premiership team, all the small forwards came in from the 2015 draft onwards. Collingwood nearly won the flag last year but their small forwards mostly came in back en as well. They did need key defenders and they have come up now but you could say rebuilding out of order and not having talls in place cost them last years Grand Final.

We haven't overlooked it, we have taken a lot of potential small forwards. If you don't rebuild properly you end up with a team that isn't maturing at the same time and is a mess that misses out. We aren't the finished product yet. We're a little past midway with our rebuild so our small forwards should start coming in from now onwards.

Yes we were lucky we drafted so many talls who can play. It will be the foundation for long term success. Our hit rate for players is actually fairly high in general and it wont take much for us to get in a small forward or two who can really play.

When we get good, and we will, we're going to develop long term sustained success because we have recruited in order of typical development time frames.

Every club who wins flags and particularly clubs who develop sustained success builds this way. To suggest we should do it differently because you don't understand it isn't right. It's something to take notice of.

We're on track at this stage but I think we need to be really good in the next two draft/trade/free agency periods.

 

[Stamos]

We're a little past midway with our rebuild

I like the rest of your post, but don't agree with this, we're pretty much there. At most, it will take one more good trade period at the end of the year.

Every list has areas for improvement, and is looking to fill gaps and improve every off season. That's not the same as rebuilding. Round 1 next year our list will be young, but should be pretty complete.

 

[Pafloyul]

You've missed the point that's why. It's a discussion about recruiting for needs. Papley is just an example of the position (i.e. KPP vs FP). Re-read the discussion for context.

Not as far as I'm concerned. My problem with it was not the fact that we were recruiting 'yet another tall'. My problem was with the details.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Not as far as I'm concerned. My problem with it was not the fact that we were recruiting 'yet another tall'. My problem was with the details.

Funnily enough you weren't even part of the conversation. I was replying (i.e. direct quoting) Blue and Blue/HARKER. So your "problem with it" doesn't matter in this context.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I like the rest of your post, but don't agree with this, we're pretty much there. At most, it will take one more good trade period at the end of the year.

Every list has areas for improvement, and is looking to fill gaps and improve every off season. That's not the same as rebuilding. Round 1 next year our list will be young, but should be pretty complete.

Agreed. We've got the core of our list. We've brought in/drafted around 15-20 players who are now in our core that we will just add to/tweak now.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Because they take the shortest time to develop. The youngest players in most premiership winning teams are generally the small forwards. Midfielders, defenders, talls all take longer to develop so they come in early. They also tend to be worth more if they are good. Small forwards can come rather cheaply as well.

There's a reason why pretty much all the successful teams add the small forwards last and that is it. We've got plenty of time on our side, we haven't even quite finished rebuilding the midfield and defence yet.

Eagles didn't cost themselves a flag, they just arrived when they were ready to.

Go through Richmond's 2017 premiership team, all the small forwards came in from the 2015 draft onwards. Collingwood nearly won the flag last year but their small forwards mostly came in back en as well. They did need key defenders and they have come up now but you could say rebuilding out of order and not having talls in place cost them last years Grand Final.

We haven't overlooked it, we have taken a lot of potential small forwards. If you don't rebuild properly you end up with a team that isn't maturing at the same time and is a mess that misses out. We aren't the finished product yet. We're a little past midway with our rebuild so our small forwards should start coming in from now onwards.

Yes we were lucky we drafted so many talls who can play. It will be the foundation for long term success. Our hit rate for players is actually fairly high in general and it wont take much for us to get in a small forward or two who can really play.

When we get good, and we will, we're going to develop long term sustained success because we have recruited in order of typical development time frames.

Every club who wins flags and particularly clubs who develop sustained success builds this way. To suggest we should do it differently because you don't understand it isn't right. It's something to take notice of.

We're on track at this stage but I think we need to be really good in the next two draft/trade/free agency periods.

Richmond brought in half of that side in the same period they brought in those small forwards, Geelong have brought in 2/3 of their current side over the last 4 years; both sides brought in players that play all over the ground. Collingwood brought in their two tall forwards pretty much last and now a new FB with a very young CHB. They are about the opposite though as they really only have one in Stephenson and sometimes Varcoe who actually play like small forwards.
I think we just see it from the complete opposite angle. I see them transforming and completely vital to sides like West Coast to become premiership sides and leaves teams like GWS who haven’t had good ones short when it really matters. Personally I think it’s completely plausible to suggest GWS have missed out on a couple of flags because they done what you are suggesting and when they tried (Pickett) it failed.

 

[spry]

I wonder what Jack petruccelle status is these days, I was keen on him in his draft year with the de koning pick, can't imagine it's easy getting into the west coast forward line with Cripps, rioli, Ryan, darling and Kennedy flying round.
I guess his rookie contract would be expiring this year.

Carlton supporter growing up too [emoji1303]


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[gbatman]

I like the rest of your post, but don't agree with this, we're pretty much there. At most, it will take one more good trade period at the end of the year.

Every list has areas for improvement, and is looking to fill gaps and improve every off season. That's not the same as rebuilding. Round 1 next year our list will be young, but should be pretty complete.

I hope so and it is possible but there is much to do. Particularly when the retirements start to come and the next 3-4 seasons we will see some best 22 players hang em up. Plus we have a number of holes to fill still. It's still a good number of players to get. Also I was factoring in development timeframes. For most clubs a rebuild is around 7 years. We're at year 4 soon to be year 5 so I would say a little past half way.

But you never know, we have some good assets this year as always, if we can get mature players to want to come to us we can get them and bringing in guys we need who are quality who will make an immediate impact which will go a long way to accelerating the rebuild.

I still think we are two drafts away from being a serious contender although stranger things have happened.

 

[Pafloyul]

Funnily enough you weren't even part of the conversation. I was replying (i.e. direct quoting) Blue and Blue/HARKER. So your "problem with it" doesn't matter in this context.

As far as I'm aware, this is an open forum so I'm free to butt-in any time I wish.

 

[Blutopia]

I hope so and it is possible but there is much to do. Particularly when the retirements start to come and the next 3-4 seasons we will see some best 22 players hang em up. Plus we have a number of holes to fill still. It's still a good number of players to get. Also I was factoring in development timeframes. For most clubs a rebuild is around 7 years. We're at year 4 soon to be year 5 so I would say a little past half way.

But you never know, we have some good assets this year as always, if we can get mature players to want to come to us we can get them and bringing in guys we need who are quality who will make an immediate impact which will go a long way to accelerating the rebuild.

I still think we are two drafts away from being a serious contender although stranger things have happened.

Retirements are already covered IMO.

Just need a couple of specialised small forwards another gun experienced mid and a back up ruckman through trade and FA.

Then go for depth in draft.

 

[gbatman]

Richmond brought in half of that side in the same period they brought in those small forwards, Geelong have brought in 2/3 of their current side over the last 4 years; both sides brought in players that play all over the ground. Collingwood brought in their two tall forwards pretty much last and now a new FB with a very young CHB. They are about the opposite though as they really only have one in Stephenson and sometimes Varcoe who actually play like small forwards.
I think we just see it from the complete opposite angle. I see them transforming and completely vital to sides like West Coast to become premiership sides and leave teams like GWS who haven’t had good ones short when it really matters. Personally I think it’s completely plausible to suggest GWS have missed out on a couple of flags because they done what you are suggesting and when they tried (Pickett) it failed.

Don't know about half their side. Richmond had much of their midfield and talls there before they brought in small forwards. Their big guns were there before any of their small forwards.

Not having tall defenders cost Collingwood the premiership last season, if they had them first they would have won and they got Moore through as a father son so some luck there. They have Roughead now but that's a little late. Lets face it, one of Collingwood's weakness' is their tall forwards, they aren't great and this was another area they were let down when it came to the grand final.

If we were drafting small forwards when good talls and midfielders and defenders were available I would be ropable. That's something that might look alright now but down the track, that sort of things costs you premierships.

Last thing you want is being nearly a contender and needing talls or key mids and having them but they are too young and missing to boat.

We're doing this the right way, we just haven't had the opportunity to get all the players we need, we will.

Two more drafts and we should have a side which is all maturing around the same time and is a genuine contender.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself for where we should be and forgetting where we have come from.

Lacking a couple of small forwards, it's a relatively small hole to fill. When you get towards the end of your rebuild you always have some holes to fill. You don't want those holes to be difficult to fill or take too long to develop so you don't want those holes to be players who will cost you a heap or likely won't be available.

Fairly well proven small forwards, like ruckmen are usually available to sides who want them or they can make an impact fairly soon after being drafted in a good side. Unlike talls, midfielders, small defenders who take a long time to develop and generally cost more if they are any good.

So we are a bottom side who is just part way through a rebuilding phase and people are annoyed or surprised we have holes. It's a bit silly, of course we are going to have holes. At least, because we have rebuilt properly, our holes aren't going to be hard to fill or take long to develop. Thank god we don't need key position players or a heap of mids. Small forwards will be acquirable and quick to develop and we have a couple more seasons to get it done.

You're saying we should have spent better picks and got small forwards in earlier. Well that means we wouldn't have players like Stocker or O'Brien for example and that creates far greater holes.

Whatever you do, when you're rebuilding you're going to have holes until the end, we haven't got to the end, no way has it been enough time, we need to make sure those holes are easiest to fill and the small forward hole will be a hell of a lot easier to fill than the midfield hole or key position hole. Sure you might pick one up if you're lucky but the chances of them being as good as Weitering, Curnow, McKay aren't good.

 

[Juddernaut08]

As far as I'm aware, this is an open forum so I'm free to butt-in any time I wish.

Ok mate. Just dont think that a direct reply to someone else means a direct reply to you.

Its an open forum but you still should understand the reply function.

 

[spry]

Don't know about half their side. Richmond had much of their midfield and talls there before they brought in small forwards. Their big guns were there before any of their small forwards.

Not having tall defenders cost Collingwood the premiership last season, if they had them first they would have won and they got Moore through as a father son so some luck there. They have Roughead now but that's a little late. Lets face it, one of Collingwood's weakness' is their tall forwards, they aren't great and this was another area they were let down when it came to the grand final.

If we were drafting small forwards when good talls and midfielders and defenders were available I would be ropable. That's something that might look alright now but down the track, that sort of things costs you premierships.

Last thing you want is being nearly a contender and needing talls or key mids and having them but they are too young and missing to boat.

We're doing this the right way, we just haven't had the opportunity to get all the players we need, we will.

Two more drafts and we should have a side which is all maturing around the same time and is a genuine contender.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself for where we should be and forgetting where we have come from.

Lacking a couple of small forwards, it's a relatively small hole to fill. When you get towards the end of your rebuild you always have some holes to fill. You don't want those holes to be difficult to fill or take too long to develop so you don't want those holes to be players who will cost you a heap or likely won't be available.

Fairly well proven small forwards, like ruckmen are usually available to sides who want them or they can make an impact fairly soon after being drafted in a good side. Unlike talls, midfielders, small defenders who take a long time to develop and generally cost more if they are any good.

So we are a bottom side who is just part way through a rebuilding phase and people are annoyed or surprised we have holes. It's a bit silly, of course we are going to have holes. At least, because we have rebuilt properly, our holes aren't going to be hard to fill or take long to develop. Thank god we don't need key position players or a heap of mids. Small forwards will be acquirable and quick to develop and we have a couple more seasons to get it done.

You're saying we should have spent better picks and got small forwards in earlier. Well that means we wouldn't have players like Stocker or O'Brien for example and that creates far greater holes.

Whatever you do, when you're rebuilding you're going to have holes until the end, we haven't got to the end, no way has it been enough time, we need to make sure those holes are easiest to fill and the small forward hole will be a hell of a lot easier to fill than the midfield hole or key position hole. Sure you might pick one up if you're lucky but the chances of them being as good as Weitering, Curnow, McKay aren't good.

A post too succinct and logical to be allowed on an online thread. Mods can we get a ban over here? [emoji1303]


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[Juddernaut08]

gbatman
Biggest thing I like about the post is about KPPs being filled as a hole.

SOS will make the odd error in judgement on individual trades/picks...who wouldnt?

But hes chosen a strong vision about how to build the list and has stuck to it.

How many other rebuilding teams can say they have a strong young spine of KPPs? Not many

How many of those teams also have a bunch of promising mids on track to peak at the same time?

Weitering Marchbank (Jones)
TDK (Kreuzer)
Charlie McKay (McGovern)

This lineup is a thing of beauty. Teams kill to have 1-2 of those spots filled with such quality. We have them all.

 

[gbatman]

Retirements are already covered IMO.

Just need a couple of specialised small forwards another gun experienced mid and a back up ruckman through trade and FA.

Then go for depth in draft.

Simpson - Docherty
Thomas - ???
Murphy - Stocker
Kreuzer - DeKoning

Maybe. But we also need to build as well and account for some of our young players to simply not turn out that good. Drafting is not an exact science, you need to bring in more players than you need for a role because some won't turn out and there will be injuries.

I think because we have gone better than expected and better than most teams we have been unfairly criticised for drafting too many talls. Was no guarantee any of them would make it let alone most of them. Drafting mids was a no brainer and we aren't finished there. We're coming around the corner and about to come down the straight now, we just need to come home strong.

I do agree with you in regards to what we need. I think there is a need for another small running defender though unless someone steps up into that role like SPS for example.

I think the timing is right to target these players though. We walk away from this draft with a Papley, Coniglio and a young ruck with a late pick then it's been a good result but I am still hoping we can do better.

I reckon two more drafts and we're going to have a pretty good team if things go our way. Players will be mature, should have brought in some pretty good mature talent and filled in all or most of the holes.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Don't know about half their side. Richmond had much of their midfield and talls there before they brought in small forwards. Their big guns were there before any of their small forwards.

Not having tall defenders cost Collingwood the premiership last season, if they had them first they would have won and they got Moore through as a father son so some luck there. They have Roughead now but that's a little late. Lets face it, one of Collingwood's weakness' is their tall forwards, they aren't great and this was another area they were let down when it came to the grand final.

If we were drafting small forwards when good talls and midfielders and defenders were available I would be ropable. That's something that might look alright now but down the track, that sort of things costs you premierships.

Last thing you want is being nearly a contender and needing talls or key mids and having them but they are too young and missing to boat.

We're doing this the right way, we just haven't had the opportunity to get all the players we need, we will.

Two more drafts and we should have a side which is all maturing around the same time and is a genuine contender.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself for where we should be and forgetting where we have come from.

Lacking a couple of small forwards, it's a relatively small hole to fill. When you get towards the end of your rebuild you always have some holes to fill. You don't want those holes to be difficult to fill or take too long to develop so you don't want those holes to be players who will cost you a heap or likely won't be available.

Fairly well proven small forwards, like ruckmen are usually available to sides who want them or they can make an impact fairly soon after being drafted in a good side. Unlike talls, midfielders, small defenders who take a long time to develop and generally cost more if they are any good.

So we are a bottom side who is just part way through a rebuilding phase and people are annoyed or surprised we have holes. It's a bit silly, of course we are going to have holes. At least, because we have rebuilt properly, our holes aren't going to be hard to fill or take long to develop. Thank god we don't need key position players or a heap of mids. Small forwards will be acquirable and quick to develop and we have a couple more seasons to get it done.

You're saying we should have spent better picks and got small forwards in earlier. Well that means we wouldn't have players like Stocker or O'Brien for example and that creates far greater holes.

Whatever you do, when you're rebuilding you're going to have holes until the end, we haven't got to the end, no way has it been enough time, we need to make sure those holes are easiest to fill and the small forward hole will be a hell of a lot easier to fill than the midfield hole or key position hole. Sure you might pick one up if you're lucky but the chances of them being as good as Weitering, Curnow, McKay aren't good.

See this is where I disagree there are plenty of players like Cuningham, Ellis and Tomlinson who are all out of contract who could play on the wing for us and cost us nothing at the trade table. We could also target Langdon who won’t cost as much as those two did.
Don’t get me wrong I love that we have both of those two on the list but I do think their are multiple available players to fill those holes every season. AMT is about the only proven pressure small forward out of contract atm and the Bulldog’s are going to make sure he doesn’t come cheap.

Edit.
If we had in fantasy land traded pick 10 for Cameron rather than take LOB than imo our list would be miles ahead and that has nothing to do with LOB’s ability who I’m a huge fan of but I think we would easily be able to find someone like Tomlinson, Ellis or Cuningham to fill LOB’s role and would cost us zero draft picks to do so. Just bringing it up to demonstrate that maybe that role is easier to fill than a small forward

 

[Soapy V]

Retirements are already covered IMO.

Just need a couple of specialised small forwards another gun experienced mid and a back up ruckman through trade and FA.

Then go for depth in draft.

I’d like to add another running defender like Ellis, Cuningham or Lester. Maturity and depth and Free.

A mid like Coniglio would be awesome. Langdon as well.

Jack Martin can fill midfield and forward and any of Papley Ainsworth Bolton would be great additions up forward

Cameron Lynch or Ladhams would be good rucks plus Goddard from WAFL.

I’d also like to get a talented young kid like Atley Brodie or Bonar.

Then we need to add a couple of very good State Leaguers. My feeling is Frank Anderson will be one

Not a bad group when I believe most improvement will come from within [emoji41]

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Retirements are already covered IMO.

Just need a couple of specialised small forwards another gun experienced mid and a back up ruckman through trade and FA.

Then go for depth in draft.

And a Couple small defenders ...

 

[Blutopia]

And a Couple small defenders ...

I think Stocker covers one of Simpson or Thomas. SPS has shown he can go back there. Willow if he gets fit. Maybe one small defender would be worth chasing if available.

 

[F_therest]

I can’t understand why they are the last piece of the puzzle when they are clearly so important in today’s game. Sure they were the finishing touches to West Coast but maybe they cost themselves flags because they didn’t invest in them earlier. They also won it without their best mid, Ruckman and a gun defender, maybe if they had small forwards a year or two earlier with those other guys in the side they would’ve won another premiership but by overlooking them they missed out.
Also Richmond’s last pieces for their premiership was a Ruckman, a gun mid and another midfielder.
Collingwood’s final pieces seem to be a star mid and KPF and Defenders.
It’s our most glaring weakness, you don’t just overlook it because of some pre-perceived idea of the order to build a list in.
It’s like people who say you draft the talls first. It just makes absolutely no sense unless you have them available. We were unbelievably lucky we started our rebuild and went all out in 2015 so we could take talls in a draft that was loaded with them. If it was the 2014 or 2016 draft class and we went tall we would be an absolute basket case right now. Though it worked out perfectly for us the actual theory could be detrimental if the players aren’t available

Because history shows small forwards can have a more immediate impact than KPP's.

Also to truly be effective and damaging, small forwards need to be part of a team with a decent midfield and ideally some KPF's to structure around. Even the best small forwards in the game will struggle if their teams' midfield is getting dominated and there is barely any i50's and the game is being played in the oppositions half.

Our young KPP's are only now starting to hit their straps from the 2015 class and look like they can be consistent, good AFL players. It's taken 4 years but we're primed now.

 

[gbatman]

See this is where I disagree there are plenty of players like Cuningham, Ellis and Tomlinson who are all out of contract who could play on the wing for us and cost us nothing at the trade table. We could also target Langdon who won’t cost as much as those two did.
Don’t get me wrong I love that we have both of those two on the list but I do think their are multiple available players to fill those holes every season. AMT is about the only proven pressure small forward out of contract atm and the Bulldog’s are going to make sure he doesn’t come cheap.

Pass, they are just ordinary players and that is what you get if you don't rebuild properly. Ordinary players in key important positions.

Good small forwards and ruckmen, you can get them without paying a mint for them (draft picks and salary). You want to get good mids and good key position players, that's when you start talking huge salaries, multiple early draft picks. Draft them yourself and it's a hell of a lot cheaper and you get to the end of the rebuild like we are coming to and you will actually have something in the bank (picks and salary cap) to play with when filling the final holes.

It's completely the wrong thing to do to take small forwards ahead of key position players and mids when you need them. Even ahead of good small defenders.

A team with good small forwards that has no salary cap room, shallow midfield full of second rate players and lacking talls with the holes filled with second rate talls. We tried that, didn't work out so well.