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List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

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Gethelred said:
This argument looks awfully familiar...

Wait a second; I've seen this discussion before. We had it about Shai Bolton, when he was on the edges of Richmond's side and couldn't get a game. People said exactly what you've said right here about him. Fast forward to now - and Ian Hill is a near identical proposition to Bolton, as both are small forwards with outside midfield chops - and Bolton is a fixture in Richmond's midfield rotation, and the chance is gone.

We need to maximise our chances of getting it right; we do not do this by just trading for Papley. I like building from within - it's a basis for why I think we need to be conservative with contract size and trade price - but we need to look at multiple avenues to supplement not just Papley, but the young smalls already on our list.
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Who said anything about just going after Papley?

He will not be our only target at the end of this season, just as he was not our only target at the end of last season.

I have no issues with going for Hill but if Papley is available and wants to come to the club again, he simply must be the priority.
 
Jeremias said:
Who said anything about just going after Papley?

He will not be our only target at the end of this season, just as he was not our only target at the end of last season.

I have no issues with going for Hill but if Papley is available and wants to come to the club again, he simply must be the priority.
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What would you consider paying for Papley?

Would like to make a play for Adam Tipungwuti, signed with North's VFL but they don't exist anymore, so would be worth looking into.
 
Jeremias said:
Who said anything about just going after Papley?

He will not be our only target at the end of this season, just as he was not our only target at the end of last season.

I have no issues with going for Hill but if Papley is available and wants to come to the club again, he simply must be the priority.
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He will be the only player we target for that position if there's a chance he's gettable. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket when pursuing a big fish.

We could have had Dan Butler last year. Instead we opted to go for Papley, a trade that was contingent on the Daniher trade going through.

You don't need hindsight to tell you that wasn't a smart move, because Essendon were always going to fight tooth and nail to keep him, especially whilst he was in contract.

We couldn't try and get all of Butler, Papley, Betts and Martin because there wouldn't be enough room in our side to do so.

Butler and his management would have been having conversations, with a key discussion point being you're their first preference. You're a backup in case what they want falls through.

Long story short, when you go after big fish, you face the prospect of missing out on players that can add genuine value to your side.

On a side note, Butler is having a better season than Papley. Both kicked the same amount of goals, but Butler averages 4.5 tackles per game to Papley's 2.0. Simply put, he's applying more pressure that Papley, which is exactly what we're looking for in a small forward.

Traded to St Kilda for pick #56!!!!!!!!!

If you spend too much time focusing on Papley, it gives other clubs the opportunity to put more time into other players on the market, hence, give them a competitive advantage.
 

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Heard today that Z Williams is on the North radar. Pretty much guarantees he will go elsewhere and, why would they do that. Top up again? They have the most lopsided list in the league. At least he is only 25? Smoke and mirrors begins.
 
CaressMyBlues said:
Can't trade Big Levi and you'd be mad to get rid of Plowman, does something really dumb things but he is a good player.
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Have to agree CMB. Cas is one of the league's best contested marks and will remain a one club player I reckon. And Plow is a good solid citizen for us most weeks. Would not trade either of them.
 
CaressMyBlues said:
Can't trade Big Levi and you'd be mad to get rid of Plowman, does something really dumb things but he is a good player.
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Have to agree CMB. Cas is one of the league's best contested marks and will remain a one club player I reckon. And Plow is a good solid citizen for us most weeks. Would not trade either of them.
 
BigBreakfast said:
Heard today that Z Williams is on the North radar. Pretty much guarantees he will go elsewhere and, why would they do that. Top up again? They have the most lopsided list in the league. At least he is only 25? Smoke and mirrors begins.
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He'll be on almost everyone's radar because he's a free agent. Doesn't mean they're the front runners.
 
Gethelred said:
They could've, and they should've, but we don't know that they did. The only thing we know is that they and him are making him the most bankable they possibly can.

That suggests bidding war to me. It might not be a fully fledged bidding war, because Papley might have only us in mind, but they're going to make credible attempts are shopping him elsewhere that will raise his price.


What hurts is trade amount AND contract size/length. Even after this year, he is still a small forward. He might go a fair way up and down the ground, but that's what he is. I am not content to pay a small forward 500 thousand a year even now.

We need to keep our salary cap under control. Is it worth getting Papley if we're losing Harry in three years?


If Papley does not cost 2 first round picks, then I'm all for it (provided as stated that his contract is not bonkers). I do not think the Lions would trade Witherden for a second, nor the Giants for Hill.

I think they - Sydney - are going to find a buyer, and will have spent this entire season chirping in his ear and to his manager to 'be professional, maximize your financials'; anything, in order to widen the market to whomever will pay the most. After all, they'd be remiss not to.
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500k a year for a small fwd. Same argument used for Betts in 2013.

For what its worth i agree in relation to 2 first rounders, thats overpaying and equally cant see him leaving

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
 
Gethelred said:
Really?

It depends on when you get em, I suppose. I'd still take 2-3 years of Pendlebury over almost everyone on our list; he'd be worth his weight in gold to us in terms of leadership and he's not a fitness/athleticism player. His thing is reading the game, and picking the right option, and possessing a forcefield that prevents people tackling him.

If you only could get 1-2 out of Pendlebury, I'd pick Adams over Treloar.
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The type of player Treloar is, is the type of player I wish we had on our list next year, an attacking midfielder, who can break the lines, link up well, is a good runner and tackler.
Pendles is a great player, just too old for me, if I was choosing a player for us. The thing that makes Pendlebury stand out for me, is he doesn’t look quick, but he seems to just evade the opposition all the time, he seems to always have space and disposes then ball in a calm manner. Great Player
 
Eiffel 65 said:
That's one game. You need to take a more holistic view.

Papley was averaging 1.2 goals per game in 2018. Franklin played 19 games that season.

Franklin has played 10 games over the past 2 seasons, with Papley's average goals per game increasing to approximately 1.7 and 2 goals in 2019 and 2020.

Hence, my reasoning for Papley's lift in output in Franklin's absence across the past 2 seasons.
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You would expect players to improve on their third season and if they don’t we are stuffed.

Edit
I actually agree with the theory but when you are more of a target you get more attention.
 
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HavUEvaSeenTheRain said:
You would expect players to improve on their third season and if they don’t we are stuffed.
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Small forwards peak a lot earlier than other players. He came into the system as a mature age player. He's turning 25 next year.

Secondly, they've definitely kicked it to him more often Since Franklin, Reid and Heeney have been injured. It's been a talking point in the media before.

If you get greater supply, you'll kick more goals. It's a pretty simple equation if you ask me.
 

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Eiffel 65 said:
Small forwards peak a lot earlier than other players. He came into the system as a mature age player. He's turning 25 next year.

Secondly, they've definitely kicked it to him more often Since Franklin, Reid and Heeney have been injured. It's been a talking point in the media before.

If you get greater supply, you'll kick more goals. It's a pretty simple equation if you ask me.
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Yep he was taken a year later at 19 but he was still only in his third year player and he has improved every year and was obviously a late developer seeming he wasn’t even drafted the first time round. That’s an upward trajectory in development. Let’s not forget someone like Cuningham, Kennedy, SOJ turn 24 next year too.
I also don’t think they peak any earlier. They seem to play well at an earlier age but they still peak in the mid 20’s. Look at all the best recent ones like Cyril, Eddie, Cameron, Milne ect all peaking mid to late 20’s. Just like the majority of the best mids play good footy early too. They just play the role better because it’s not as big as a midfielders role so you can get away with being just a role player playing there.

The thing is he is a proven forward threat, put him as a third or fourth target and he has already shown that he can still hit the scoreboard. That’s why we were chasing him last year and that’s why we would want him again this year. Atm he is a proven bigger threat then any forward we have on our list. To go with that last year he was also top 10 in the league for GA. It’s almost like you think him adding extra strings to his bow is a bad thing.
 

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HavUEvaSeenTheRain said:
Yep he was taken a year later at 19 but he was still only in his third year player and he has improved every year and was obviously a late developer seeming he wasn’t even drafted the first time round. That’s an upward trajectory in development. Let’s not forget someone like Cuningham, Kennedy, SOJ turn 24 next year too.
I also don’t think they peak any earlier. They seem to play well at an earlier age but they still peak in the mid 20’s. Look at all the best recent ones like Cyril, Eddie, Cameron, Milne ect all peaking mid to late 20’s. Just like the majority of the best mids play good footy early too. They just play the role better because it’s not as big as a midfielders role so you can get away with being just a role player playing there.

The thing is he is a proven forward threat, put him as a third or fourth target and he has already shown that he can still hit the scoreboard. That’s why we were chasing him last year and that’s why we would want him again this year. Atm he is a proven bigger threat then any forward we have on our list. To go with that last year he was also top 10 in the league for GA. It’s almost like you think him adding extra strings to his bow is a bad thing.
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If we omit Harry, Charlie and Mitch from our forward line and just play Casboult as a deep forward in the goal square and only kick it to him, no on else, he'll have a career best year. That doesn't mean he's improving. Just means we're using him as our only option and kicking it to him more often.

You can always justify going after any high quality player, but it doesn't necessarily constitute smart list management and resource allocation.

I've said this before, but Papley standing in the forward Pocket would not have done anything for us against West Coast when their midfield started dominating us and got a run on in the 3rd quarter.

We have serious gaps in our midfield, and if we spend $800-$1m on a small forward, that's less money we can put into our midfield or even defense, which are probably our two weakest areas on the ground.

Just look at their midfield including Yeo, Gaff, Shuey, Kelly, Sheed etc.

If you ask me, that's the biggest reason why we can't consistently compete with the best. We don't have enough quality running through the middle.
 
Eiffel 65 said:
If we omit Harry, Charlie and Mitch from our forward line and just play Casboult as a deep forward in the goal square and only kick it to him, no on else, he'll have a career best year. That doesn't mean he's improving. Just means we're using him as our only option and kicking it to him more often.

You can always justify going after any high quality player, but it doesn't necessarily constitute smart list management and resource allocation.

I've said this before, but Papley standing in the forward Pocket would not have done anything for us against West Coast when their midfield started dominating us and got a run on in the 3rd quarter.

We have serious gaps in our midfield, and if we spend $800-$1m on a small forward, that's less money we can put into our midfield or even defense, which are probably our two weakest areas on the ground.

Just look at their midfield including Yeo, Gaff, Shuey, Kelly, Sheed etc.

If you ask me, that's the biggest reason why we can't consistently compete with the best. We don't have enough quality running through the middle.
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Look at GWS' midfield. Big names there. As soon as Greene isn't in the team, they turn to water.

Papley would improve us
 
HereComesJuddy said:
Look at GWS' midfield. Big names there. As soon as Greene isn't in the team, they turn to water.

Papley would improve us
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No doubt he would, but it's a misallocation of resources.

Our midfield is not even close to the level of theirs.
 
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