List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[AT97]

This, that pick is in a sweet spot for a KPP

for what it’s worth, Austin talks about the draft being thin for key position stocks…not sure if only referring to KPD specifically (as he was talking about lewis young).

AFL Trade Radio

All the biggest breaking AFL trade news, stories and interviews!

webplayer.whooshkaa.com

 

[Ash24]

How many sides have a laundry list of back up key defenders?

3-4 is normal

On SM-A515F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Every team needs two reliable key defenders - Jones and Weitering.

Then we also need a further two depth KPDs in the chance that LJ/JW are for whatever reason injured at the same time - Young and OMac. These 4 are a minimum.

Finally, we look at Jones who is 31 early next year. Is Young his long term replacement? Can we trust him (after a few years of development) to comfortably take on a Hawkins, Cameron, Lynch type? It's too early to tell, but I'd rather be over-prepared seeing star KPPs are rare commodities each trade period.

We need to draft a project key defender. Someone who can look to push Young for Jones' permanent spot in the side in 3-4 years when he retires. Whether it's this year or next when we take to the draft, that would make potentially 5 KPDs on our list.

 

[Justnetime]

Not sure you can call Cripps a curse on the club and terrible for 2 seasons in his role.

Yes he is down from his best of a few years ago but that was from an incredible high, almost the best player in the whole competition.

His last two years have been down compared to those highs for sure, but if you compare his last two years with other inside mids I bet his stats stack up.

Edit. Was hoping someone else looked up the stats
Cripps 2020 Centre Clearance 1st, Clearances 3rd, Contested Possession 9th
Cripps 2021 Centre Clearance 17th, Clearance 28th Contested Possession 20th

2021 was from 20 games, Oliver, Bont and some others has 25 games

Better than anybody at Carlton including Walsh. And I believe he was playing injured most the year.

There are no real stats that show Cripps without the ball trailing his man by 20 metres. In today’s game this is important.

I hope Voss can illustrate how Wines recovered to become a force. Part of Cripps issues is he is trying to add value outside and that over 2 seasons looks like a train wreck.

We simply want him to see ball then get ball. He has little value otherwise.

With a lot less midfield minutes and under the eye test I think Kennedy has outperformed and is a better kick and better decision maker. It is simply Carlton have wedded themselves to Cripps.

And I understand why that happened. His best 2 seasons were legendary.

 

[gbatman]

I reckon his efforts aren't actually that bad.

Again, I think the issue is lack of smarts and inability to read play.

If the ball's in front of him, he can go and get it. If it's not, then it takes a while for him to process what's going on and his opponent almost always has a few seconds on him because he reacts so slowly. That why it looks like he's always chasing tail.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think you have a junior player who was very good at just hunting the ball and he looked good because he could burst away with it with speed. A lot of those sort of kids don't need to do the 1%ers and defensive acts. AFL teams draft them in the hope that they will build on their game, that their offensive game will translate to AFL, that they will fit into the highly structured nature of AFL footy and adapt a defensive aspect to their game. Dow has not grasped structured footy and has not grown in the defensive aspects of AFL footy.

I think a lack of effort and footy IQ is a big problem with Dow. Coaching is part of a problem but you can't accommodate players who are defensively poor and not quick and smart enough to assess situations.

Personally I don't see Dow making it but in saying that if he does I won't be overly surprised as he has the tools to do so. Sometimes players who have to tools to play but lack work ethic and smarts do eventually make reasonable players out of themselves but it often takes extra time to do so.

The issue for Dow is that we will keep recruiting midfielders and chasing midfielders and we wont have to spend the time waiting for him to maybe develop. If Dow is to save his career, yes this is where he is at, he needs to focus on how he plays with the ball in his area and how he runs defensively. Ball in his area he needs to go as hard as he can at it repeatedly, which he doesn't do. Needs to focus on applying pressure and being a top line pressure player. Needs to be told to just run hard back as soon as the opposition get it or to at least follow a man.

If this fails I would force the defensive part into his game and play him in the backline.

He's a 14 possession inconsistent midfielder with zero defensive aspects to his game, he's in a hell of a lot of trouble career wise and needs to work hard at reinventing himself.

Hard to fault this. Plenty of Dow fans on here and it is not hard to tell why. In full flight is ultra impressive, however his impact is rarely more than a quarter and never more than a half of footy. Certainly scope to improve his work rate, however it is his defensive absence that is the massive go slow. Even when ‘up and about’ rarely runs defensively and his tackling efforts when chasing are feeble. Is able to stick a tackle in close quarters, but absolutely no chance of halting a player with momentum. This is particularly difficult to do when merely throwing out one arm is your staple.

I have him behind the likes of Kennedy and a fit Setterfield or Cuningham. A fit Williams could relegate him, then there are Stocker, Kemp, Carroll and Philp all with the scope to step up dramatically.

I know plenty won’t agree but he has more work to do than most to entrench himself in that midfield.

Big hopes for Philp. I could tell from the brief viewing we got of him in his first season that he possess all the qualities Dow lacks. His efforts to get to contests and get to opposition ball carriers and his repeat efforts were excellent. He's the sort of player you just have to have in your team.

Cuningham has excellent physical attributes and skills. Is he ruthless enough at the contest though?

Kennedy is physically slow and immobile but he has a footy IQ and gee he puts in. I don't have him in my best 22 going forward but he's a good reserve player.

Setterfield IMO is much of a muchness with what we already have with Cripps and Kennedy and not what the side is looking for however he's solid backup too.

Stocker, get him in there, shorted powerful stocky mids who hit hard is what has always been winning team premierships.

Kemp, special abilities, get him in there, anywhere. On a wing, half forward, centre, back line. Put him where we need that sort of gun player.

Carroll, got to find a spot for him.

I think Williams, regardless is a missing piece in our defence. We're shakey when it hits the deck back there but not with him around.

 

[Metalcrusher]

I think you have a junior player who was very good at just hunting the ball and he looked good because he could burst away with it with speed. A lot of those sort of kids don't need to do the 1%ers and defensive acts. AFL teams draft them in the hope that they will build on their game, that their offensive game will translate to AFL, that they will fit into the highly structured nature of AFL footy and adapt a defensive aspect to their game. Dow has not grasped structured footy and has not grown in the defensive aspects of AFL footy.

I think a lack of effort and footy IQ is a big problem with Dow. Coaching is part of a problem but you can't accommodate players who are defensively poor and not quick and smart enough to assess situations.

Personally I don't see Dow making it but in saying that if he does I won't be overly surprised as he has the tools to do so. Sometimes players who have to tools to play but lack work ethic and smarts do eventually make reasonable players out of themselves but it often takes extra time to do so.

The issue for Dow is that we will keep recruiting midfielders and chasing midfielders and we wont have to spend the time waiting for him to maybe develop. If Dow is to save his career, yes this is where he is at, he needs to focus on how he plays with the ball in his area and how he runs defensively. Ball in his area he needs to go as hard as he can at it repeatedly, which he doesn't do. Needs to focus on applying pressure and being a top line pressure player. Needs to be told to just run hard back as soon as the opposition get it or to at least follow a man.

If this fails I would force the defensive part into his game and play him in the backline.

He's a 14 possession inconsistent midfielder with zero defensive aspects to his game, he's in a hell of a lot of trouble career wise and needs to work hard at reinventing himself.



Big hopes for Philp. I could tell from the brief viewing we got of him in his first season that he possess all the qualities Dow lacks. His efforts to get to contests and get to opposition ball carriers and his repeat efforts were excellent. He's the sort of player you just have to have in your team.

Cuningham has excellent physical attributes and skills. Is he ruthless enough at the contest though?

Kennedy is physically slow and immobile but he has a footy IQ and gee he puts in. I don't have him in my best 22 going forward but he's a good reserve player.

Setterfield IMO is much of a muchness with what we already have with Cripps and Kennedy and not what the side is looking for however he's solid backup too.

Stocker, get him in there, shorted powerful stocky mids who hit hard is what has always been winning team premierships.

Kemp, special abilities, get him in there, anywhere. On a wing, half forward, centre, back line. Put him where we need that sort of gun player.

Carroll, got to find a spot for him.

I think Williams, regardless is a missing piece in our defence. We're shakey when it hits the deck back there but not with him around.

 

[Juddernaut08]

There are no real stats that show Cripps without the ball trailing his man by 20 metres. In today’s game this is important.

I hope Voss can illustrate how Wines recovered to become a force. Part of Cripps issues is he is trying to add value outside and that over 2 seasons looks like a train wreck.

We simply want him to see ball then get ball. He has little value otherwise.

With a lot less midfield minutes and under the eye test I think Kennedy has outperformed and is a better kick and better decision maker. It is simply Carlton have wedded themselves to Cripps.

And I understand why that happened. His best 2 seasons were legendary.

He's still one of our best players.

 

[Foucault1989]

What was Big Footy like in the prime Fevola years? Was he adored or maligned?

 

[Justnetime]

Just a great offseason period. We’ve moved on quite a few space chasers and got in two competitive players.

Murphy, SPS and Gibbons out really helps us align more with what the Dees and Doggies have on their lists.

Can’t wait for 2022. If Charlie captures his previous form and Voss implements a semblance of any normal plan, the sky is the limit.

 

[Aramari]

Just a great offseason period. We’ve moved on quite a few space chasers and got in two competitive players.

Murphy, SPS and Gibbons out really helps us align more with what the Dees and Doggies have on their lists.

Can’t wait for 2022. If Charlie captures his previous form and Voss implements a semblance of any normal plan, the sky is the limit.

Interesting point. Murphy SPS Betts Gibbons and Ramsay are all 182cm or shorter. Leaves Owies, Saad, Durdin, Fisher, Ed, Boyd and Fogarty below 183cm or 6 foot. Down from 12/45 or 27% to 7/42 or 17% after list changes to date (plenty of changes to come of course).

Is the reduction in an over-abundance of "undersized" players what you're getting at?

 

[haveago]

Love the changes so far but a little surprised on Ramsay..

Young looks the goods and as a 200cm key position/ruck he is just entering his sweet spot. A steal IMO getting him for the lazy and not fully committed SPS . (although I hope a change kick starts him)

Gibbons had to go and of the ones out of contract i would be releasing Newnes, Cotterel and Owies.

Not sure LOB and Williamson contract status but would be giving them both the Khyber. List cloggers that have been given ample opportunity.
If still contracted will play only VFL I MO.

Stock up on some kids and also see what might come up in the pre season . O,Kearney at Ess. VFL better than all mentioned above and still
only about 24. He is one that I have seen and would seriously like him to be considered and given a pre season. Can play!!!



Exciting 2022 coming up....... GO BLUES !!!

 

[Ash24]

Can someone please tell me why a few of us want to delist Owies? Genuinely curious, because I thought he was our most improved player this year.

 

[Bletch]

Can someone please tell me why a few of us want to delist Owies? Genuinely curious, because I thought he was our most improved player this year.

No point - he's a Cat-B Rookie, and doesn't compete with the rest of the list for a spot. Doubt we've got 2 other Cat-B's lined up.

 

[Uncle Fester]

What was Big Footy like in the prime Fevola years? Was he adored or maligned?

fev was divisive. One minute you loved him more than life, the next it was get rid of him. Was so much fun, you really could get both in 5 minutes, but the bad moments were pretty dreadful, but then he’d do something magic. You always knew he would end up on 99 goals that year.

 

[Justnetime]

Interesting point. Murphy SPS Betts Gibbons and Ramsay are all 182cm or shorter. Leaves Owies, Saad, Durdin, Fisher, Ed, Boyd and Fogarty below 183cm or 6 foot. Down from 12/45 or 27% to 7/42 or 17% after list changes to date (plenty of changes to come of course).

Is the reduction in an over-abundance of "undersized" players what you're getting at?

Not really undersized as I like Fisher, Fogarty and Owies. I tend to think of every position on the field has certain traits and then look at which players match. Example, a rebounding defender needs strong metres gained as just one of the core traits. Reason why SPS was a total failure there. You need other traits too but that is an example of a core trait.

Gibbons, SPS and Murphy all like space to do their best work. They don’t provide unconditional tackling, chasing and physicality. Murphy is the best example, when he chases, he is hoping for a turnover so runs a little behind his opponent Waiting for that chance. The cost is, his opponent sets up the transitional play ….a lot. The overlap.

Since the days of bell, Hasleby and now Murphy the game has changed. This is totally my opinion but I believe the game doesn’t want th3se types now….slow mids, little physical impact and looking for cheap possessions. Useless possessions like Marc Murphy for 5 years running to the back pocket to get @ kick and a mark.

the new current traits are Melbourne, doggies and tigers midfield. Those delisted arent really a match for those midfields so I support their delisting.

Two core traits of a small fwd are defensive pressure and goals. Im much more comfortable with Owies than Murphy or gibbons because of that true effort in defensive pressure. Twice I saw Owies run right to the opponents goal square to tackle his direct opponent. I’ve never seen gibbo or Murphy really do that.

I think others on here only see the attacking merit in a player. Not the equally important defensive side.

 

[katmanblue]

I think a lack of footy IQ is a big problem with Dow.

I have a feeling that the word 'footy' may be superfluous in that sentence.

 

[thylacine60]

I have a feeling that the word 'footy' may be superfluous in that sentence.

coming from you

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Not really undersized as I like Fisher, Fogarty and Owies. I tend to think of every position on the field has certain traits and then look at which players match. Example, a rebounding defender needs strong metres gained as just one of the core traits. Reason why SPS was a total failure there. You need other traits too but that is an example of a core trait.

Gibbons, SPS and Murphy all like space to do their best work. They don’t provide unconditional tackling, chasing and physicality. Murphy is the best example, when he chases, he is hoping for a turnover so runs a little behind his opponent Waiting for that chance. The cost is, his opponent sets up the transitional play ….a lot. The overlap.

Since the days of bell, Hasleby and now Murphy the game has changed. This is totally my opinion but I believe the game doesn’t want th3se types now….slow mids, little physical impact and looking for cheap possessions. Useless possessions like Marc Murphy for 5 years running to the back pocket to get @ kick and a mark.

the new current traits are Melbourne, doggies and tigers midfield. Those delisted arent really a match for those midfields so I support their delisting.

Two core traits of a small fwd are defensive pressure and goals. Im much more comfortable with Owies than Murphy or gibbons because of that true effort in defensive pressure. Twice I saw Owies run right to the opponents goal square to tackle his direct opponent. I’ve never seen gibbo or Murphy really do that.

I think others on here only see the attacking merit in a player. Not the equally important defensive side.

This is why I support the club playing SPS back. Lloyd summed it up pretty well a few weeks ago, he lacked the intensity to play forward and the running capacity to play midfield.
Dow is another one who won’t have a career if he doesn’t learn the defensive side of the game. It’s frustrating as a fan because it seems the most simple thing to address and some players just won’t/can’t.

 

[CJMB]

Interesting point. Murphy SPS Betts Gibbons and Ramsay are all 182cm or shorter. Leaves Owies, Saad, Durdin, Fisher, Ed, Boyd and Fogarty below 183cm or 6 foot. Down from 12/45 or 27% to 7/42 or 17% after list changes to date (plenty of changes to come of course).

Is the reduction in an over-abundance of "undersized" players what you're getting at?

Height alone isn't a great measure though. Using the GF as an example, Viney is only 178cm and Libba is a smidge under 6' at 182cm, yet both are the hard inside types for their teams.

Even factoring in weight alongside height isn't perfect. There's plenty of taller/heavier guys that play below their size, and some skinny/short guys that are hard as a cats head which negates their smaller stature. Martin is actually a pretty good example here, he's seriously wiry but we know he hits hard. Durdin is listed at 173 & 77 but attacks the man, goes in like a little cannonball. Fogarty (180/78) is also a good tackler, and he's almost a dimensional copy of Murph.

Hopefully with a less aggressive spread next season we'll have more opportunities for players to tackle and impose themselves physically.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing our potential forward pressure with the likes of Martin, Honey, Durdin, Fogarty & SOS up forward.

 

[Juddernaut08]

That top 3 mids of Cripps, Walsh, Cerra just looks so good now. Get Cripps injury-free and he's still an elite midfielder of the league.

Walsh and Cerra still improving.

 

[Donnini]

When in doubt just go for the pitbulls in the middle.

Stocker, Fogarty and Hewett and will leave opposition bruised and sore for rest of game then bring in the class acts Crippa, Walsh and Cerra to clean up shop.

I might be on to something here. Hurt them early with pitbull bash then smash them with class.

 

[gbatman]

The only thing with midfielders is their agility and speed off the mark and their will to attack the contest and the man repetitively. Over the years we have had a lot of midfielders who lack that speed off the mark, agility and aren't hard enough at the ball/man. Looking at our midfield last year only Walsh was really up to it in this area.

Height isn't overly important in the midfield. It's more about how hard at it you are and your strength as well as having speed and agility to get to contests to create a contest.

Defending in the midfield isn't as much about having tagging or defensive mids. It's all about a teams ability to get to contests and get to opposition players quickly and repetitively. Good sides like Melbourne and the Bulldogs they were defending and attacking at the same time, they were going very hard and making up ground very quickly and making contests over and over again compared to us who played a game where they get it or we get it. These teams played a game of we get it or it's a contest. That comes from the culture and standards that drive high efforts and the capabilities those players have as a whole.

 

[Juddernaut08]

When in doubt just go for the pitbulls in the middle.

Stocker, Fogarty and Hewett and will leave opposition bruised and sore for rest of game then bring in the class acts Crippa, Walsh and Cerra to clean up shop.

I might be on to something here. Hurt them early with pitbull bash then smash them with class.

A bit small though. Need a big body in there imo.

 

[haveago]

Can someone please tell me why a few of us want to delist Owies? Genuinely curious, because I thought he was our most improved player this year.

IMO Honey is better and you cant have too many of same type and definitely cant have both playing at same time. Owies was good at times but Honey much more upside. Has more pace , more tricks, stronger overhead AND A MUCH BETTER MORE PENETRATING KICK.
Owies probably has him for tackling pressure.



I would have thought Big H was our most improved ???

 

[DirkDiggler]

IMO Honey is better and you cant have too many of same type and definitely cant have both playing at same time. Owies was good at times but Honey much more upside. Has more pace , more tricks, stronger overhead AND A MUCH BETTER MORE PENETRATING KICK.
Owies probably has him for tackling pressure.



I would have thought Big H was our most improved ???

What I like about Owies is that he presents as a marking option. Think most of his goals are from leads. IMO he is a bit too one dimensional in that he doesn’t play the traditional small forward role of kicking for goal via crumbing pack marks or ruck contests. Just an observation. Durdin can be that player for us with his lighting acceleration and quick hands. Unfortunately just doesn’t find the ball enough in the vfl to justify selection. I feel Crocker is superior to Owies but for whatever reason is not considered AFL worthy.

 

[gbatman]

Owies is a little improvement away from being a pretty good player. If he improves his crumbing game and his goal kicking accuracy from outside 30m then he's going to bring a lot to the team. Really excited about Durdin and Honey. Genuine pace and a will to hunt the man as well as a knack of kicking a few goals. Our forward line game plan needs a touch-up, if we create a more defensive forward setup and we're hard, quick and physical at ground level we are going to build something pretty good.