List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part V

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 5

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[westernsainter]

Open question to the forum:

Who is the best mid/small defender in the league, whose role mainly is primarily to play on damaging small forwards?

Stocker isn’t a unicorn player that’s for sure, but I think he’s pretty solid cover in the position.

Ben Paton back in the day looked really good in that role, I seem to remember a stretch of games where he was pocketing players like Toby Greene, and then got injured by Roughead and career over.

Jimmy Webster was fairly underrated in a position that doesn’t get plaudits, had a good mix of agility and toughness.

IMO our ideal backline has:

• A fullback for big forwards (e.g. Howard/Hammer)
• Two versatile intercepting defenders (e.g. Wilkie/JSOS)
• Two attacking half back flanks (e.g. Sinclair, Hastie)
• And a small lockdown defender (e.g. Stocker, O’Connell?)

So basically a full back tall for the best opposing tall and a full back small for the best opposing small. Then four intercepting and rebounding players who make up the rest of the defensive effort.

It's hard to pinpoint the best medium defenders because so few teams use them as 1 v 1 players anymore.

Someone like Stewart plays a massive role for Geelong in stopping small/medium forwards from getting the ball by being an elite zone defender. Much the same with other top line guys like Vlastuin and Sicily. Wilkie is probably our most effective defender in terms of shutting down medium forwards just through how good he is at reading the play, which is a problem because he can't do everything.

The problem with Stocker and the reason I think he was our biggest liability in 2025 was his lack of presence in marking contests coupled with the fact he doesn't intercept well. It's an enormous weakness that is only made worse by the fact he doesn't have any offensive weapons like a Bailey Dale/Josh Weddle type to cover his deficiencies. JSOS is the exact player we hope to cover that position.

It should also be noted that Webster was, for a long time, our main go-to for smaller backs and he's now off the list.

If I'm looking around the field I'd have to say our backline is probably our biggest issue.

2026 would look like:

JSOS - Howard - Tauru
Sinclair - Wilkie - ???

Caminiti should come off the bench with 5 spots (or go past Howard) and then take your pick of LOC/Byrnes/Stocker/Hastie/Trav in that last spot.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

His sliding doors for them was about Jy Simpkin being retained (AGAINST HIS WILL DAMO) and it was soft as baby shit.

I do seem to recall he was ****ing stoked about Charlie Spargo though, cause hes a real needle mover.

Could be another anti Saints scoop about to come through

 

[True Believer]

Foxsports gave us the top mark in the league (along with the suns)

This can't be right - they gave the Bulldogs a "D"...!!!

Do they realise the Doggies landed Budarick from GCS ??!!

 

[botts]

Meh

I reckon if he was talented enough he still would’ve gone first round.

He’s scared of contact. That’s his issue

 

[The Punter]

Open question to the forum:

Who is the best mid/small defender in the league, whose role mainly is primarily to play on damaging small forwards?

Stocker isn’t a unicorn player that’s for sure, but I think he’s pretty solid cover in the position.

Ben Paton back in the day looked really good in that role, I seem to remember a stretch of games where he was pocketing players like Toby Greene, and then got injured by Roughead and career over.

Jimmy Webster was fairly underrated in a position that doesn’t get plaudits, had a good mix of agility and toughness.

IMO our ideal backline has:

• A fullback for big forwards (e.g. Howard/Hammer)
• Two versatile intercepting defenders (e.g. Wilkie/JSOS)
• Two attacking half back flanks (e.g. Sinclair, Hastie)
• And a small lockdown defender (e.g. Stocker, O’Connell?)

So basically a full back tall for the best opposing tall and a full back small for the best opposing small. Then four intercepting and rebounding players who make up the rest of the defensive effort.

It's the most underappreciated role in footy. Also entirely indispensable. Geelong couldn't get Brisbane's small forwards controlled on Grand Final Day and it cost them.

I think Stocker and Hastie would compare favourably to most other teams.

 

[SG34]

The move was entirely Steele's choice. He was told he would have limited opportunities at St Kilda but Melbourne is offering a key midfield role and an extra year. It is a no-brainer to take the Melbourne offer.

How do you know? Steele wanted to stay. He walked the plank, graciously.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Fox footy's Saints best 23

Hill on a H.B.F?. we've tried that before, without success.

Sharman not in the team
I suppose if King & Marshall were killing it?
then Owens & Sharman would be competing for the 3rd tall spot.

No Henry in the team either but l suppose that's understandable given the year he has just had.
But would replace him with Hill if he gets back to his best.

 

[SG34]

I think Ross explained that he'd not be captain and not guaranteed a spot in the starting line up. Sounds like Melbourne convinced him to move and we helped him get to a club that could play him regular footy.

Woah...let's slow down..
1) I think Ross explained that he'd not be captain TICK
2) ..and not guaranteed a spot in the starting line up TICK
3) Sounds like Melbourne convinced him to move. ALARM

I re-iterate. I am only basing this off peanut gallery vibes, but I think I am dealing with the same radio signals, I suspect, that we all are. And my Radio department informed me that
'It doesn't sound like he had a choice.'
'Saying Melbourne 'convinced' him is like saying, to me, 'Look buddy, here it is, take it or leave it..'

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Steele as star at Melbourne, or as lining up as a sub and at Casey. I don't know what Melbourne guaranteed him. I do know that Steele wanted to stay at St Kilda, even after being fully cognizant of all the limits and statements.

Now we are paying part of his salary and got virtually tissue paper back for it.

I am all for the changes and I am excited about St Kilda's, 'No more nice guy' thing. But I am not gonna say that Steele was convinced to go or that it was a win-win. According to reports, Steele was visibly saddened. And in a year where 'How dare Zach Merret disrespect the role of captain', it might cause some adjustments in the 'new normal' settings.

As I said, I am happy with what we are doing. About bloody time and all that..

But I will add, I still do not see five mid-fielders at St Kilda better than Steele. I see three.
And let's not forget, we were so desperate for mids last year, we recruited a guy in an identical place to where Steele would have been at St Kilda this year. former champ mid, reduced to flank, sub 'n seconds. MacCrae.

 

[Silkie]

It's hard to pinpoint the best medium defenders because so few teams use them as 1 v 1 players anymore.

Someone like Stewart plays a massive role for Geelong in stopping small/medium forwards from getting the ball by being an elite zone defender. Much the same with other top line guys like Vlastuin and Sicily. Wilkie is probably our most effective defender in terms of shutting down medium forwards just through how good he is at reading the play, which is a problem because he can't do everything.

The problem with Stocker and the reason I think he was our biggest liability in 2025 was his lack of presence in marking contests coupled with the fact he doesn't intercept well. It's an enormous weakness that is only made worse by the fact he doesn't have any offensive weapons like a Bailey Dale/Josh Weddle type to cover his deficiencies. JSOS is the exact player we hope to cover that position.

It should also be noted that Webster was, for a long time, our main go-to for smaller backs and he's now off the list.

If I'm looking around the field I'd have to say our backline is probably our biggest issue.

2026 would look like:

JSOS - Howard - Tauru
Sinclair - Wilkie - ???

Caminiti should come off the bench with 5 spots (or go past Howard) and then take your pick of LOC/Byrnes/Stocker/Hastie/Trav in that last spot.

'Biggest liability of 2025' is a bit harsh imo. Guy had a role and played it pretty well most of the time.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Could be another anti Saints scoop about to come through

Love the nodding trees haha

 

[gringo2011]

Genuinely have no idea why he hates Saints so much. Would have thought even being mates with spud he may have had a little love for them but no. Takes every chance he can whether we’re doing good or bad, to smash us. Tbh most of the media do the same. It’s actual incredibly refreshing to hear someone stick up for us like a Bartel.

They would honestly give zero shits about us. They do theatre to get clicks and make content. It's not personal, it's their job. Guys like Andrew Bolt and Tom Elliot do it with politics too. They make themselves a circus sideshow to get the pearl clutchers and curtain twitchers wound up.

Bartel gets to have a position in the media that has a little more dignity but he probably has quarter of the engagement of Purple and a tenth of Kano. Negativity gets heaps more engagement and it gets them advertising dollars.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Zero Hanger suggesting that Darcy Wilson could leave for Essendon or North.Melb. in 2027.
Would seriously hope that he sees us as a better fit than those two.

Zero Idea also nominated Jesse Motlop as a player we were targeting.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Fox footy's Saints best 23

Hill on a H.B.F?. we've tried that before, without success.

Sharman not in the team
I suppose if King & Marshall were killing it?
then Owens & Sharman would be competing for the 3rd tall spot.

No Henry in the team either but l suppose that's understandable given the year he has just had.
But would replace him with Hill if he gets back to his best.

Hill had some decent games last year, but there were periods where he was lucky to hold his spot in the side. He can't play in defence and as a high half forward he doesn't hit the score board enough.

I think he will be battling for a game with a number of younger players next year, which will be a sign of an improving list.

 

[nikkig98]

Zero Hanger suggesting that Darcy Wilson could leave for Essendon or North.Melb. in 2027.
Would seriously hope that he sees us as a better fit than those two.

Norf , yeah im sure he'll be keen to join in on their 10th year of bottom 3 three finishes

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Woah...let's slow down..
1) I think Ross explained that he'd not be captain TICK
2) ..and not guaranteed a spot in the starting line up TICK
3) Sounds like Melbourne convinced him to move. ALARM

I re-iterate. I am only basing this off peanut gallery vibes, but I think I am dealing with the same radio signals, I suspect, that we all are. And my Radio department informed me that
'It doesn't sound like he had a choice.'
'Saying Melbourne 'convinced' him is like saying, to me, 'Look buddy, here it is, take it or leave it..'

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Steele as star at Melbourne, or as lining up as a sub and at Casey. I don't know what Melbourne guaranteed him. I do know that Steele wanted to stay at St Kilda, even after being fully cognizant of all the limits and statements.

Now we are paying part of his salary and got virtually tissue paper back for it.

I am all for the changes and I am excited about St Kilda's, 'No more nice guy' thing. But I am not gonna say that Steele was convinced to go or that it was a win-win. According to reports, Steele was visibly saddened. And in a year where 'How dare Zach Merret disrespect the role of captain', it might cause some adjustments in the 'new normal' settings.

As I said, I am happy with what we are doing. About bloody time and all that..

But I will add, I still do not see five mid-fielders at St Kilda better than Steele. I see three.
And let's not forget, we were so desperate for mids last year, we recruited a guy in an identical place to where Steele would have been at St Kilda this year. former champ mid, reduced to flank, sub 'n seconds. MacCrae.

Not better yet, but the potential is there, more the point.
And we have alot of depth in that midfield now.
All of Boxshall, Carroll, Clark, Dow, Flanders, Garcia, Hall, Macrae, Nas, Pou & Windy
can run through there.
Not mentioning the wings either.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Steele’s departure is brutal for sure. But there’s lots of factors at play here.

The continued tweaking of AFL rules means that every player’s impact can rise or fall dramatically.

The last touch rule next year will make transition even faster again, I think.

The extended bench will mean reduced minutes for high rotation players, which means fatigue should be a marginally smaller factor between winning and losing.

Sustained pace out of the middle and on transition is going to become even more important both offensively and defensively.

I think it might be why this years draft class is poorly rated too. They look like a pretty slow bunch comparatively. A few midfielders going to have to reinvent themselves as defensive half backs to eke out a career.

Jack has been a loyal servant to the club. But his strongest capacities are well and truly covered by Macrae. And his lack of pace means he really doesn’t fit RTB’s vision for the midfield.

It’s not the Saints fault if that is where the game is heading.

Hardly brutal - club and player had a mature discussion regarding about where the club saw his future over the next two years.

Steele considered it and then choose to move to Melbourne on an extended contract which from what I can see will guarantee no loss of income.

What's brutal is when you de-list someone and kill the dream.

 

[snails13]

He’s also criticized Essendon for holding Merrett (in spite of them being very clear they weren’t gonna trade him) against his will and yet seems to be implying that us keeping Wilkie and paying him to keep him happy is an issue.

campaigners been on the bong all morning

Dont think he understands what contracts are.

 

[True Believer]

Woah...let's slow down..
1) I think Ross explained that he'd not be captain TICK
2) ..and not guaranteed a spot in the starting line up TICK
3) Sounds like Melbourne convinced him to move. ALARM

I re-iterate. I am only basing this off peanut gallery vibes, but I think I am dealing with the same radio signals, I suspect, that we all are. And my Radio department informed me that
'It doesn't sound like he had a choice.'
'Saying Melbourne 'convinced' him is like saying, to me, 'Look buddy, here it is, take it or leave it..'

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Steele as star at Melbourne, or as lining up as a sub and at Casey. I don't know what Melbourne guaranteed him. I do know that Steele wanted to stay at St Kilda, even after being fully cognizant of all the limits and statements.

Now we are paying part of his salary and got virtually tissue paper back for it.

I am all for the changes and I am excited about St Kilda's, 'No more nice guy' thing. But I am not gonna say that Steele was convinced to go or that it was a win-win. According to reports, Steele was visibly saddened. And in a year where 'How dare Zach Merret disrespect the role of captain', it might cause some adjustments in the 'new normal' settings.

As I said, I am happy with what we are doing. About bloody time and all that..

But I will add, I still do not see five mid-fielders at St Kilda better than Steele. I see three.
And let's not forget, we were so desperate for mids last year, we recruited a guy in an identical place to where Steele would have been at St Kilda this year. former champ mid, reduced to flank, sub 'n seconds. MacCrae.

I am yet to see any corroboration of the fact that we are paying part of Steele's wage next year.....

 

[The_Steadier]

Do they realise the Doggies landed Budarick from GCS ??!!

That's a big get by them- I loved him in Blackadder

 

[Mystifly]

I suspect the club will use Steele’s salary to re-sign or extend the contracts of younger players.

That would be smart long term business.

Purely based off feeling, I think we could keep Steele's salary off-books, then use it to prize a free agent next year. Won't be Bailey or Butters, but if he is still unsigned I could see us having a red hot crack at Sam Walsh. They only other free agent of note is Ben King, who we would bring in if Max retires.

 

[saintmike65]

Yeah imagine puncturing a lung, being the no.1 tagged every week in a one paced midfield and have your output drop.

Weird.

there's still a place for Macrae but likely lesser midfield time

 

[sauce_head]

Steele’s departure is brutal for sure. But there’s lots of factors at play here.

The continued tweaking of AFL rules means that every player’s impact can rise or fall dramatically.

The last touch rule next year will make transition even faster again, I think.

The extended bench will mean reduced minutes for high rotation players, which means fatigue should be a marginally smaller factor between winning and losing.

Sustained pace out of the middle and on transition is going to become even more important both offensively and defensively.

I think it might be why this years draft class is poorly rated too. They look like a pretty slow bunch comparatively. A few midfielders going to have to reinvent themselves as defensive half backs to eke out a career.

Jack has been a loyal servant to the club. But his strongest capacities are well and truly covered by Macrae. And his lack of pace means he really doesn’t fit RTB’s vision for the midfield.

It’s not the Saints fault if that is where the game is heading.

Is last possession out of bounds happening?

 

[bergholt]

It's the most underappreciated role in footy. Also entirely indispensable. Geelong couldn't get Brisbane's small forwards controlled on Grand Final Day and it cost them.

Meh I don't see it, I think defences zone around, and they're at the mercy of the midfield stopping ball coming in. If the ball is coming in well and the zone is failing then a small will probably kick some goals, but even having a top notch small back isn't going to stop that.

Anyway to the original question - who do you think are the best ones?

Maynard and Quaynor probably
Hardwick
Uwland and Wil Powell are pretty good for GC
Hinge
Luke Ryan maybe

I really can't come up with many.

 

[sauce_head]

I'm already tired of the narrative around Steele

Apparently the better thing to do would be to not have an honest conversation with Jack so he could explore options if he chose to.... you just drop him next year and see him potentially finish his career in the VFL

Tired of Ralph with his sly passive aggressive bullshit. Such a punchable face.

I know. Mates of mine are saying the same. He wasn’t pushed out he was told what his situation would be and asked if he wanted to stay or not. If you love them, set them free.

It’s a weird take. But then again they all want clicks.

 

[Joffaboy]

The move was entirely Steele's choice. He was told he would have limited opportunities at St Kilda but Melbourne is offering a key midfield role and an extra year. It is a no-brainer to take the Melbourne offer.

Yup. The exact reason Flanders decided to come to us.