List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[goodie23]

I'd love to see Membery win a flag.

I'd love that if he was at almost any other club

 

[PJays]

Okay. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

No, I'm arguing using observable, relatively objective metrics

We've only won four matches as well. Our second best player is a really good player. Ports second best player is a really good player. Sydneys second best player is a really good player. All teams on the same spot on the ladder.

I'd suggest the only players that are worth being the highest paid player in the AFL are those who are the best player on a top 8 team.

Daicos, Bontempelli, Cameron etc

If Vibes De Koning was getting to that level, he would've shown it more consistently by now. He's almost 26, not 21.

It's not the 'vibe'. AFL coaches think he's a really good player. But you know better...

I'm asking- what is it that makes him a "really good player"

The stats don't show it

Overall Hitouts to advantage, hitouts win %, clearances, contested marks

These stats show Xerri and Gawn are clearly superior.

De Koning has posted a grand total of 4 coaches votes in Carlton wins. So he's not helping his team win games.

So what is De Koning actually doing? Other than "he looks like a good player" which is vibe.

 

[Gavinmitchell11]

Zane Duursma looks frustrated at North, I reckon he has serious talent. Needs a new start. Hope we enquire.

 

[Saints43]

No, I'm arguing using observable, relatively objective metrics

I'd suggest the only players that are worth being the highest paid player in the AFL are those who are the best player on a top 8 team.

Daicos, Bontempelli, Cameron etc

If Vibes De Koning was getting to that level, he would've shown it more consistently by now. He's almost 26, not 21.


I'm asking- what is it that makes him a "really good player"

The stats don't show it

Overall Hitouts to advantage, hitouts win %, clearances, contested marks

These stats show Xerri and Gawn are clearly superior.

De Koning has posted a grand total of 4 coaches votes in Carlton wins. So he's not helping his team win games.

So what is De Koning actually doing? Other than "he looks like a good player" which is vibe.

For a lot of people AFL coaches thinking someone is a really good footballer would be enough.
I'll leave you to it.

 

[The Boar]

I don't see why we'd be letting RoMa go if TDK turns up. The idea of bringing TDK is to have more good players, isn't it?
Not one in, one out.

I see it as a 1 out, 2 in scenario.
In: TDK, Bergman.
Out: Marshall.

We have the cash to spend for TDK. The Marshall trade pick results in Bergman.
The above 1 out, 2 in scenario improves our list.

 

[PJays]

For a lot of people AFL coaches thinking someone is a really good footballer would be enough.
I'll leave you to it.

Being the 2nd best player on the 12th best team is not "really good"

Plus, he hasn't done this consistently. You're hanging your hat on less than half a season.

He's not on track to even make AA40- because at least two rucks are clearly ahead.

If that's your definition of "really good", and worth $12.5mil over 7 years and the title of "highest paid AFL player", more power to you!

 

[Joffaboy]

Their system seems so well drilled and really selfless. No-one is going for personal glory, they look for teammates and block and harass for each other. Geelong similar. They just know what they are meant to do and can bring in a new player and expect them to know how to play it.

Having players work into space for the kicker helps too. We seem to stand still and pressure the ball carrier into mistakes.

They are actually a pleasure to watch. I have never been a Collingwood hater. I hope they win it this year.

 

[Joffaboy]

I see it as a 1 out, 2 in scenario.
In: TDK, Bergman,Aleer
Out: Marshall.

We have the cash to spend for TDK. The Marshall trade pick results in Bergman.
The above 1 out, 2 in scenario improves our list.

EFA

 

[goodie23]

Zane Duursma looks frustrated at North, I reckon he has serious talent. Needs a new start. Hope we enquire.

Can you blame him?

 

[Joffaboy]

Being the 2nd best player on the 12th best team is not "really good"

Plus, he hasn't done this consistently. You're hanging your hat on less than half a season.

He's not on track to even make AA40- because at least two rucks are clearly ahead.

If that's your definition of "really good", and worth $12.5mil over 7 years, more power to you!

Still waiting for you to tell us who to spend it on who won't cost draft capital.
The only one would be Bont. You think he will leave the Dogs?
Name someone or STFU this constant whinging.

 

[g_TRAIN]

They are actually a pleasure to watch. I have never been a Collingwood hater. I hope they win it this year.

I still hate them but from a purely an aesthetic point of view both Collingwood and Geelong consistently play the best "brand" of footy.

 

[PJays]

Still waiting for you to tell us who to spend it on who won't cost draft capital.

Tell me, exactly how much cap space will we lose if we don't spend it on Vibes?

You're assuming "it" must be spent, otherwise we lose "it".

How much is "it"?

Without an answer to this question, your argument lacks clarity and is moot.

The only one would be Bont. You think he will leave the Dogs?

Why would it have to be one player only?

Why does it have to be this year?

We're talking about a 7 year outlook.

Some unwarranted assumptions there.

 

[Teflon]

I'm convinced that good kicking has a lot to do with confidence. Confidence from the receiver to commit to wanting the ball and obviously the confidence of the player delivering. They believe it will work.
Some of those Collingwood players are shittrucks but they all have massive confidence. It's not from their natural ability at the level.
Somehow they've built it. We need to build it as well as we're nothing like it.

In part yes
Dan Houston and NAS have an ability to land a ball and hit target. Mitch Owens or Byrnes can be as confident as you want …they simply don’t have the natural talent.
I’ve no doubt confidence improves your ability to execute but Lyon is right when he says …that’s just a feeling that comes and goes ….then what’s left is your ability to execute the kick more often than not
I think some players are naturally better at it
I was disappointed we didn’t have a crack at Lipinski ….good kick and Pies how him for pick 43???? But again they targeted the right skill set … we need more better ball users and limited “confidence” players cause in big moments it’s your skill that sets you apart imo

 

[Grav]

So if Howard doesn’t go around again next season & this is also Cordy’s last, would we look at someone who you think would come cheap, maybe Charlie Dean?
Ex Sandringham Dragons player, who played 8 games last season but hasn’t broken into Collingwoods team this year.
Having a pretty good game in the 2’s against the D hawks

 

[jumperfan]

So if Howard doesn’t go around again next season & this is also Cordy’s last, would we look at someone who you think would come cheap, maybe Charlie Dean?
Ex Sandringham Dragons player, who played 8 games last season but hasn’t broken into Collingwoods team this year.
Having a pretty good game in the 2’s against the D hawks

It's Ethan Phillips' time to shine

 

[Grav]

It's Ethan Phillips' time to shine

Yesterday’s news

 

[Teflon]

Yet clubs like Collingwood have done a bulk of list building on the cheap not going for optics. To me losing Marshall who up until this year has been a match winner and one of our few top shelf players for a guy who is promising but not elite is a dangerously arrogant move. If it backfires it looks terrible.

To me TDK is a poor kick, suffers from a similar issue to Marshall in that he can ruck but his real skill is dump kicking out of the ruck. Both my brother and brother in law are both Blues supporters and they both clam that Carlton usually play better when TDK isn't rucking. His dump kicks frustrate them as much as ours piss us off.

Taking him and Bergman is bringing in two below average ball users into an already messy side at maximum cost. Aleer is also a poor kick.

I'm not totally against TDK but they want to be very sure that he's going to be the best player in the AFL or at least the best ruck in the game to justify being the best paid player in history.

Pies a ooor example you’re not exactly comparing apples….can bring Houston in on lower dollars to Nth offer to keep replenished cause they play in front of 80k at G each week …..so yeah they’ve managed to do it
They did also at a similar spot to us now ..offload Treloar (club stalwart) and Stephenson etc so they aren’t afraid to call it when it’s needed
Anyway it all depends what you get for Masrhall - a second round in compromised draft no….1st round high enough to genuinely stay 1st after push backs ….would make me look

 

[Teflon]

If Hastie was at the Cats he would already be 5kg heavier and on track to be a gun. He is an elite user, we just have painfully slow development compared to other teams.

Interstingly, father in law was around last night and we were chatting footy. He was a Cats board member for 10+ years not that long ago. He is absolutely astounded by Ross's claim we have 16 required hours at the club a week.

Cats premiership ship years was double this. Players demanded a level of excellence from each other. We are not a serious football club if blokes are legit spending 16 hours at week at work which includes tactical reviews.

It's absolutely baffling to me. Maybe our skills suck, because wtf can u actually achieve in 16 hours a week?

The 16hrs make me wonder if we are just trying anything to be attractive
I suspect as we eventually get closer to a challenge that 16 hours would change
We aren’t challenging now but agree it’s low
Also footy clubs have moved a bit even in last 10 years this generation isn’t the same …

 

[Diehard Saint]

The 16hrs make me wonder if we are just trying anything to be attractive
I suspect as we eventually get closer to a challenge that 16 hours would change
We aren’t challenging now but agree it’s low
Also footy clubs have moved a bit even in last 10 years this generation isn’t the same …

Wonder how it compared to Ross’ first tenure and his time at Freo?

 

[PJays]

They did also at a similar spot to us now

Collingwood were in a position we might find ourselves in, around 3 or 4 years from now

..offload Treloar (club stalwart)

Treloar started with GWS.

and Stephenson etc

Stephenson was being overpaid, as was Treloar and Grundy

so they aren’t afraid to call it when it’s needed

They realised they made mistakes by overpaying players

This is the exact trap St Kilda's about to fall into with Vibes De Koning

Collingwood paid for this, being forced to continue paying part of their salaries when they played for other teams

Anyway it all depends what you get for Masrhall -

How about keeping our gun ruckman, continue developing Dodson, keeping Boyd for injury insurance (or finding someone else- we previously had Tom Campbell)..... and not making the 5th or 6th best ruck in the AFL the highest paid player in the AFL?

Can we learn from Collingwood's mistakes?

Or will we repeat them?

 

[ScrappyDo]

Reminds me of this girl from high school, her name was Kate.

Highly, highly underrated post..

 

[Minga]

Yet clubs like Collingwood have done a bulk of list building on the cheap not going for optics. To me losing Marshall who up until this year has been a match winner and one of our few top shelf players for a guy who is promising but not elite is a dangerously arrogant move. If it backfires it looks terrible.

To me TDK is a poor kick, suffers from a similar issue to Marshall in that he can ruck but his real skill is dump kicking out of the ruck. Both my brother and brother in law are both Blues supporters and they both clam that Carlton usually play better when TDK isn't rucking. His dump kicks frustrate them as much as ours piss us off.

Taking him and Bergman is bringing in two below average ball users into an already messy side at maximum cost. Aleer is also a poor kick.

I'm not totally against TDK but they want to be very sure that he's going to be the best player in the AFL or at least the best ruck in the game to justify being the best paid player in history.

Hey I get it, it’s not like TDK is the player I want most in the world, I’m not sold on him as a messiah type.

But we’re not Collingwood, we don’t have father sons falling out of our arse, we don’t attract free agents just because we are a big four side & and we certainly aren’t the most valuable sporting club in the country.

How Collingwood turned there list around and won a premiership after finishing 17th in 2021 is beyond me. They looked obliterated in a list management sense.

Marshall is a great player and I’d like to keep him, but he came on late, and frankly, do we look like we will be getting any utility out of him as our list peaks? We are nowhere near it. I’d like to keep him, but if there’s a FRDP on the table and a very good replacement in TDK for nothing but salary cap you have to look at it.

 

[gubby88]

Collingwood were in a position we might find ourselves in, around 3 or 4 years from now


Treloar started with GWS.


Stephenson was being overpaid, as was Treloar and Grundy


They realised they made mistakes by overpaying players

This is the exact trap St Kilda's about to fall into with Vibes De Koning

Collingwood paid for this, being forced to continue paying part of their salaries when they played for other teams


How about keeping our gun ruckman, continue developing Dodson, keeping Boyd for injury insurance (or finding someone else- we previously had Tom Campbell)..... and not making the 5th or 6th best ruck in the AFL the highest paid player in the AFL?

Can we learn from Collingwood's mistakes?

Or will we repeat them?

I'm getting to the point atm from your posts, that I hope the repeat the mistakes just to see you go off your collective banana lol

 

[Joffaboy]

Tell me, exactly how much cap space will we lose if we don't spend it on Vibes?

You're assuming "it" must be spent, otherwise we lose "it".

How much is "it"?

Without an answer to this question, your argument lacks clarity and is moot.


Why would it have to be one player only?

Why does it have to be this year?

We're talking about a 7 year outlook.

Some unwarranted assumptions there.

Yes we lose it, so tell me who we use it on?
Answer the question. 3rd time I have asked.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Aleer looks useless ... apart from going the spoil and even then he has missed some

Nothing like over rating players