List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[StCicatriz]

No, he wasn't.

All of Petracca, McCartin & Wright were being spoken about as #1 options. 12 months earlier Hugh Goddard was being hyped up.

Given our KPF issues at the time, combined with the massive price the Dogs paid to get Tom Boyd, it was reasonable of the club to look at the consensus 2 best talls with our #1 pick.

Was Petracca a more impactful player? Sure. But McCartin had put up numbers that no KPF ever did and he did that despite not being 200cms tall.

He wasn't dominant because of size but because of his talent.

Go watch what McCartin was doing in games. He was a pack marking monster, even as a kid. If concussions didn't ruin him he would have played 200 games and kicked bags of goals.

We never had a chance to pick Serong because we traded for Hill. If you want to reverse engineer every trade we ever made, on top of drafting, then it's impossible to tell what the list would have looked like.

Naughton was a CHB option. We didn't need him at the time given we had Carlisle, Brown, Austin, Gilbert, Joyce, Battle & Roberton all on the list. We drafted Oscar Clavarino but that was a talent call, not needs based.

Nobody had a clue Naughton would be decent as a KPF and again, Clark & Coffield looked amazing early days.

Long over Bolton was the club not backing themselves to keep Shai in Victoria. He was always seen as a flight risk. Given he ended up asking for a trade the minute the Tigers turned to shit it was probably the right call. That we didn't keep Ben and get this sort of performance out of him is really frustrating.

The massive difference in our opinions here is that you seem to think it's just a matter of drafting the 'best' players. That getting the picks right means it'll work.

I take the position that development and coaching are far more important.

A good coach and culture will get far more out of a player, regardless of talent.

Our issue for the last decade is that everyone we draft seems to cop a serious of unfortunate events and that stalls their progress. Then we try playing semi established guys in unfamiliar positions - Dunstan at half forward, Acres in the ruck - or we DONT try moving guys around to see if they can succeed - McCartin to CHB, Billings at HB, Coff at HF...

Then we get to a point that their development dries up completely and all we are left with, if we're lucky, is a solid 20-25 type player.

Trac, Bont, Serong, De Goey, Naughton, Fogarty, Bolton... All of them would have either been under developed or traded.

We still won't know if we've fixed the issue under Lyon's watch for another 3+ years when the likes of Pou, Owens, Windy, Wilson, Garcia etc are making up the bulk of the best 22.

I don't have time to go through the whole thing

Wright mccartin petracca were in discussion over the year. So was durdin. But by the end petracca was the clear pick 1.

The argument around not getting hill was that we were paying too much and we could get a mid in the draft. You can't just discount that and ignore the fact we lost our shot at a mid because we made a stupid ass trade.

 

[stfan]

Patrick Cripps went a few picks later the so called experts thought he would struggle to make it due to lack of speed

I would tend to think that stating that Cripps would struggle to make it is not at all reflective of how he was viewed pre-draft.

All players have pros and cons and yes lack of speed was one of his cons, but he was not rated as struggling to make it, it was just a flagged reason why he would not be a very low pick. Cripps was always going to be taken in draft, just not very early.


We can all sit back now and say that we should have taken Cripps over Billings, but pre-draft Billings was ranked the better player.

Picks like Petracca over McCartin are the ones that I am unhappy about based on what was known pre-draft.

YES our draft choices were overall not at all good for many years, but there is no real point trying now based on how players have played post draft that how we should have say picked Cripps over Billings etc.

Was player X a fair and reasonable pick over Player Y at the time? That to me is a reasonable discussion.

 

[Joffaboy]

You guys talk in delusions of grandeur, like we’re the best run club in football and nothing about the past should be amyloses.

If you can’t identify where you went wrong you can’t fix the problem

We completely stuffed up with Billings and McCartin, everything else stems from that.
After that, the trading of our first to Hawks in 2016 was a good move. The execution was ok Battle and Long havecshown they can football and in 2017 we had 7 and 8. Was ok with Clark not that much on Coffield but hoped. Turns out Clark is the only one left and only a solid citizen.
2018 we went for the shiney toy when Rozee, Bailey Smith, and Butters available, then went for moneyball players, Parker, Hind and Young.

Because of these mistakes for 6 years our list demographic was a mess. We argue about the 2019 strategy but it occurred due us not getting mids in the previous six years.
I would say this decade we have identified the problem, and tried to address the issues, but it's too late. Because of AFL sanctions on us we cant recruit quality as they want to go to 'big' clubs and even if we are bottom 5 we cant draft the best because the fake clubs get NGA's and 'romance' of FS ( even though there are 5 AFL.players who fathers played for the Saints. Apparently romance has an arbitrary figure of 100 games on it before, you know, romance and shit).
The problem is recognised but cant be remedied because the AFL has hamstrung the club.

 

[Joffaboy]

Conspiracy Joff is back and I’m here for it.

Not a conspiracy when they are facts. Ok gone a bit footy MAGA on the AFL wanting us to fold, but 2+2=6 when airing my grievances

 

[phantom13]

I would tend to think that stating that Cripps would struggle to make it is not at all reflective of how he was viewed pre-draft.

All players have pros and cons and yes lack of speed was one of his cons, but he was not rated as struggling to make it, it was just a flagged reason why he would not be a very low pick. Cripps was always going to be taken in draft, just not very early.


We can all sit back now and say that we should have taken Cripps over Billings, but pre-draft Billings was ranked the better player.

Picks like Petracca over McCartin are the ones that I am unhappy about based on what was known pre-draft.

YES our draft choices were overall not at all good for many years, but there is no real point trying now based on how players have played post draft that how we should have say picked Cripps over Billings etc.

Was player X a fair and reasonable pick over Player Y at the time? That to me is a reasonable discussion.

Yeh I recall not being disappointed with Billings at the time, others may have been but I can’t fault it.

I also recall being ****ing spewing at McCartin over Trac on the day it happened.

 

[Joffaboy]

I don't have time to go through the whole thing

Wright mccartin petracca were in discussion over the year. So was durdin. But by the end petracca was the clear pick 1.

The argument around not getting hill was that we were paying too much and we could get a mid in the draft. You can't just discount that and ignore the fact we lost our shot at a mid because we made a stupid ass trade.

Petracca was no.1, only the fools at the Saints thought McCartin was no.1.
Four years later we need to burn another top 5 pick on a key forward because of that idiot mistake and he can't get on the park either.
Disagree with Hill, that was not in isolation, we needed to land 5 player.
Hill was ok to get with Butler, Howard, Jones and Ryder. Paddy was for a short term, the others are still there but Jones should go.
Has shown how badly Howard has been missed this season.

 

[Joffaboy]

Yeh I recall not being disappointed with Billings at the time, others may have been but I can’t fault it.

I also recall being ****ing spewing at McCartin over Trac on the day it happened.

Yep Billings was the right call at the time. If Bont had not been drafted next pick he never would have been compared. 170 games some very good, is a good career.
It is hindsight about Billings, not so with Petracca. Was an absolute must.

 

[The Punter]

Just on money from the AFL...

I don't mind the fixturing from a financial standpoint. Yes we need more games in better slots. But Carlton v Collingwood will almost certainly always be a better drawing fixture than St Kilda v North Melbourne. So I don't mind the maximisation of total revenue from attendance by having two Blues/Magpies games every year.

But the money we receive from the AFL is not a handout, it's compensation for that. More money has to mean more money for everyone.

So, just like with the draft, those St Kilda supporters who call it a handout are providing succour to our enemies. Make on-field fairness the only objective of the schedule and watch the total amount of money shrink for everyone. Happy for the club to do a little bit of heavy lifting fixture wise, but that means we have to push back on the AFL money being a handout. It's compensation for not being given better games for attendances.

All of that is aside from interstate games fixturing. Five games West of Bordertown this year. There is absolutely no way that number should be higher than three next year (we can go to Sydney twice or Queensland twice instead).

 

[phantom13]

Petracca was no.1, only the fools at the Saints thought McCartin was no.1.
Four years later we need to burn another top 5 pick on a key forward because of that idiot mistake and he can't get on the park either.
Disagree with Hill, that was not in isolation, we needed to land 5 player.
Hill was ok to get with Butler, Howard, Jones and Ryder. Paddy was for a short term, the others are still there but Jones should go.
Has shown how badly Howard has been missed this season.

Fogarty and Thilthorpe aside (and frankly I’d have kicked 5 out of the square that game) the bigs haven’t really gotten a hold of us this year. I think it’s more structure than personnel down back. If Dougal comes back this year it’s either against a team like Adelaide with 3 true talls or it’s at Cammas expense and I actually think Camma has shown plenty to stick with because Dougal isn’t the future.

 

[phantom13]

Just on money from the AFL...

I don't mind the fixturing from a financial standpoint. Yes we need more games in better slots. But Carlton v Collingwood will almost certainly always be a better drawing fixture than St Kilda v North Melbourne. So I don't mind the maximisation of total revenue from attendance by having two Blues/Magpies games every year.

But the money we receive from the AFL is not a handout, it's compensation for that. More money has to mean more money for everyone.

So, just like with the draft, those St Kilda supporters who call it a handout are providing succour to our enemies. Make on-field fairness the only objective of the schedule and watch the total amount of money shrink for everyone. Happy for the club to do a little bit of heavy lifting fixture wise, but that means we have to push back on the AFL money being a handout. It's compensation for not being given better games for attendances.

All of that is aside from interstate games fixturing. Five games West of Bordertown this year. There is absolutely no way that number should be higher than three next year (we can go to Sydney twice or Queensland twice instead).

The only real issue I take with the fixturing is something like Collingwood getting away games at the G and never going to the freak venues.

I get why they do it (we actually ask for the home game at the G vs the pies so it’s not their fault) but it makes the fixtures woefully imbalanced

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Petracca was no.1, only the fools at the Saints thought McCartin was no.1.
Four years later we need to burn another top 5 pick on a key forward because of that idiot mistake and he can't get on the park either.
Disagree with Hill, that was not in isolation, we needed to land 5 player.
Hill was ok to get with Butler, Howard, Jones and Ryder. Paddy was for a short term, the others are still there but Jones should go.
Has shown how badly Howard has been missed this season.

Rendell's insight into the McCartin versus Petracca draft in 2014

“My information is..."

archive.sen.com.au

Rendell, who was working at Collingwood in 2014, said internally McCartin was rated around pick eight, insisting that everyone else he spoke to at club-land had Petracca as the best player in the draft.

“My information is the coach of St Kilda (at the time in Alan Richardson) might have strongly influenced the recruitment manager Tony Elshaug to take Paddy McCartin at pick one,” he said on AFL Trade Radio’s The Late Trade.

“17 other clubs in the competition had (Christian) Petracca as a clear number one in that draft, so he accidently fell to Melbourne.

“The irony is St Kilda’s coach at the time in Alan Richardson is now the football manager of Melbourne.

“At Collingwood we had him at about pick eight, he was a fantastic mark and a great kick, but he was going to be a stay-at-home full forward. We just thought there were 25 players in the league who can play on a 193-centimetre full forward.

“We were still happy to take him in the draft, but not at (pick one).”

 

[The Punter]

The only real issue I take with the fixturing is something like Collingwood getting away games at the G and never going to the freak venues.

I get why they do it (we actually ask for the home game at the G vs the pies so it’s not their fault) but it makes the fixtures woefully imbalanced

Look, I don't think that is going to change much either. I reckon Geelong probably want a home game in Geelong against Collingwood, but that is conservatively locking out 30,000 fans. The Pies aren't going to play Hawthorn in Launceston either.

But it would be easy for all Victorian teams to play five away games against the eight non-Victorian clubs each season, with at least one game in each state.

And the AFL should try to work with the Victorian venues to remove away game requirements. Collingwood next deal at the MCG should only stipulate how many home games they play there. They will play away games there regardless, but it makes the fixture harder to organise.

 

[phantom13]

Look, I don't think that is going to change much either. I reckon Geelong probably want a home game in Geelong against Collingwood, but that is conservatively locking out 30,000 fans. The Pies aren't going to play Hawthorn in Launceston either.

But it would be easy for all Victorian teams to play five away games against the eight non-Victorian clubs each season, with at least one game in each state.

And the AFL should try to work with the Victorian venues to remove away game requirements. Collingwood next deal at the MCG should only stipulate how many home games they play there. They will play away games there regardless, but it makes the fixture harder to organise.

No I can’t see it changing (I think even Geelong request their required home games at the G v the Pies tbh) but whether it’ll change or not it does make for a hugely imbalanced fixture.

We can’t do all that much to account for interstate teams imbalanced fixturing (although stuff like making an interstate team go to ****ing Ballarat is dumb)

 

[stavro#4]

Fogarty and Thilthorpe aside (and frankly I’d have kicked 5 out of the square that game) the bigs haven’t really gotten a hold of us this year. I think it’s more structure than personnel down back. If Dougal comes back this year it’s either against a team like Adelaide with 3 true talls or it’s at Cammas expense and I actually think Camma has shown plenty to stick with because Dougal isn’t the future.

What?

Key talls have dominated most weeks against us, very evident in our losses:

Adelaide 8.0 (Fogarty/Thilthorpe/Walker)
Geelong 3.0 (Neale/Cameron)
Richmond 3.0 (Lynch/Bauer/Browne)
Port 6.3 (Georgiades/Lord)
GWS 7.3 (Hogan/Cadman/Riccardi/Stringer)
Bulldogs 3.4 (Naughton/Darcy - went down injured early)
Brisbane 6.3 (Hipwood/Morris)
Freo 2.0 (Amiss/Tracy/Jackson)
Carlton 8.0 (Curnow/Mckay/Young)
Eagles 6.3 (Allan/Waterman/Williams)
Suns 3.2 (King/Walter)
Demons 2.3 (Petty/Turner/Johnson)
Bulldogs 8.2 (Darcy/Naughton/Khamis) + 1.1 from English

 

[Southeastsainter]

The AFL doco is called “ Show me the money” pretty sure it’s on Stan. Colin Young is a w****r hahaha, it’s pretty good though overall!

 

[heynow85]

The AFL doco is called “ Show me the money” pretty sure it’s on Stan. Colin Young is a w****r hahaha, it’s pretty good though overall!

I think you would have to be that way inclined to be successful in that role.

No different to used car salesman’s etc…

 

[kernelT]

I just want to know which state league ruck and delisted Carlton player we’ll inevitably pick up tbh…

Joe Furphy and Orazio Fantasia

You're welcome.

 

[phantom13]

What?

Key talls have dominated most weeks against us, very evident in our losses:

Adelaide 8.0 (Fogarty/Thilthorpe/Walker)
Geelong 3.0 (Neale/Cameron)
Richmond 3.0 (Lynch/Bauer/Browne)
Port 6.3 (Georgiades/Lord)
GWS 7.3 (Hogan/Cadman/Riccardi/Stringer)
Bulldogs 3.4 (Naughton/Darcy - went down injured early)
Brisbane 6.3 (Hipwood/Morris)
Freo 2.0 (Amiss/Tracy/Jackson)
Carlton 8.0 (Curnow/Mckay/Young)
Eagles 6.3 (Allan/Waterman/Williams)
Suns 3.2 (King/Walter)
Demons 2.3 (Petty/Turner/Johnson)
Bulldogs 8.2 (Darcy/Naughton/Khamis) + 1.1 from English

Dogs fair.

If you’re calling 2 goals from talls a domination then we’re not gonna agree. Gws including stringer isn’t even relevant.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I’m really not fussed one way or the other in regards to Steele.

But if he stays he simply has to step down as captain.

Apart from any arguments in regards to whether or not he’s any good at it; it’s stale. And a club like ours needs renewal and hope.

Whatever happens, someone else must Captain our team in 2026.

 

[gringo2011]

What?

Key talls have dominated most weeks against us, very evident in our losses:

Adelaide 8.0 (Fogarty/Thilthorpe/Walker)
Geelong 3.0 (Neale/Cameron)
Richmond 3.0 (Lynch/Bauer/Browne)
Port 6.3 (Georgiades/Lord)
GWS 7.3 (Hogan/Cadman/Riccardi/Stringer)
Bulldogs 3.4 (Naughton/Darcy - went down injured early)
Brisbane 6.3 (Hipwood/Morris)
Freo 2.0 (Amiss/Tracy/Jackson)
Carlton 8.0 (Curnow/Mckay/Young)
Eagles 6.3 (Allan/Waterman/Williams)
Suns 3.2 (King/Walter)
Demons 2.3 (Petty/Turner/Johnson)
Bulldogs 8.2 (Darcy/Naughton/Khamis) + 1.1 from English

Half of those guys aren't even tall. Stringer is shorter than most mids these days, same with guys like Waterman and Georgiades. Logan Morris is 191cm same height as Macrae.

Our back 6 has stuggled this year but the tall key forwards haven't ripped us open in many matches.

 

[stavro#4]

Dogs fair.

If you’re calling 2 goals from talls a domination then we’re not gonna agree. Gws including stringer isn’t even relevant.

Read what I wrote again.

Most weeks talls have dominated against us - especially in our losses.

In losses, talls have contributed on average:

6 goals. 2 Behinds

In games we have won, opposition talls average:

3 goals. 1 behind.

Our lack of size at both ends has been a significant contributor to a lot of our issues.

 

[stavro#4]

Half of those guys aren't even tall. Stringer is shorter than most mids these days, same with guys like Waterman and Georgiades. Logan Morris is 191cm same height as Macrae.

Our back 6 has stuggled this year but the tall key forwards haven't ripped us open in many matches.

You would be nuts to think they are not classified as tall/key position forwards.

 

[gringo2011]

Read what I wrote again.

Most weeks talls have dominated against us - especially in our losses.

In losses, talls have contributed on average:

6 goals. 2 Behinds

In games we have won, opposition talls average:

3 goals. 1 behind.

Our lack of size at both ends has been a significant contributor to a lot of our issues.

Our lack of ability to hold the ball inside our forward line, our inability to control opposition movement through the corridor, the loss of contests in the midfield including clearance, the low tackle count, the poor ball use, the lack of a plan B when sides press us up and take away our run.

The backline is worse without Battle as a third tall interceptor, it looks like an obvious hole in what was a great back 6 but swapping Howard for Caminiti is almost an upgrade at this point.

I'd also say that our back six is under way more pressure than it has been over the last few seasons.

 

[gringo2011]

You would be nuts to think they are not classified as tall/key position forwards.

Well then Sharman and Owens are our key talls so we aren't missing anything.

 

[phantom13]

Read what I wrote again.

Most weeks talls have dominated against us - especially in our losses.

In losses, talls have contributed on average:

6 goals. 2 Behinds

In games we have won, opposition talls average:

3 goals. 1 behind.

Our lack of size at both ends has been a significant contributor to a lot of our issues.

Assuming there’s 2 (although you’ve really stretched the parameters for talls to get 4 in some instances). They’ve kicked 2-3 goals a piece.

Given most teams walk it out of the middle against us I’m gonna stand by what I said which, if you’ll read again was,

the bigs haven’t really gotten a hold of us this year.

If you told me Wilkie and Camma without Battle would keep oppo talls to 2-3 goals a game at the start of the year I’d have taken that in a heartbeat.

It’s also more to the point that Dougal wouldn’t change it, we actually need a third mid sized athletic interceptor to compliment what we’ve got.

Frankly I hope Dougal is done and I was a massive Dougal supporter.