List Mgmt. 2025 List Management II 📃

[Aphrodite]

 

[gbatman]

Cerra was really good this year and quite consistent (also finished 3rd in the B&F)

This is a wild take

Shows how poor a year we had, 3rd in a really poor field where not many had a good season. Comparing him over the competition and other midfielders, he doesn't rate. He's low impact. Is it fitness the whole time he has been with Carlton. His time here has been underwhelming. We have only ever got good patches from him. Over his whole time at Carlton he has been inconsistent, has not reached the level we were hoping he would and he has lacked durability.

We improved this year when he came out of the side with injury and put Lord into the middle. That was a big take for me, Lord did it better. It's not that big of a take, Lords last few games exceeded Cerra's performance this season.

 

[gbatman]

I think Cez is underrated (even by me)

If he had a season where he consisetnly played 26 games P) we couldnt avoid seeing how good he is

We said the same thing about Martin and Cuningham until it didn't happen and was evident it wasn't going to. Teasing with potential and never happening. I think he is another who received a longer contract than he should have. If this season ever happens then great but I am not holding my breath.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

We still have Agresta and Brodie involved don’t we?

Brodie is with the NGA program now. I think Glenn Luff was appointed earlier this year?

But yes, Agresta is still there, but we have a more footy focused CEO now and CD as HoF so they'll oversee all this anyway.

 

[Blue1980]

This is not a rebuild in a sense that it has been in the last 20 years.

This is not like when Pagan brought in a heap of mature players. The team was a bottom team that had been gutted but salary cap penalties, horrific drafting and the retirement and aging of many old stars. Our list is immensely better than it was then. Those players were brought in to keep us alive, the current ones have been brought in to fill weak spots.

This is not a rebuild that we saw under Ratten or Bolton. We are not a bottom team with a horrible list like we were back then. We have a group of quality mature core players. We have played in a preliminary final and made finals the year before and despite all that went wrong only finished 11th this year, not bottom.

Our recruiting team have a different direction and have assistance from Graham Wright. Sometimes recruiting teams fail because of poor direction and ours has with Voss, but the direction is good now. We are less focused on accumulators and more focused on impact players who have pace and skill. Our head Austin, has only delivered a small sample size from the draft and some of that has been good. The areas that have been bad, we will not be recruiting those players under the current direction.

IMO we have a list that should play finals. We have a team that is only a few holes filling away from being a premiership contender. Our list is good, our team is good, we have been smashed with injuries, particularly in the forward line. We have some real top youth coming our way via father son and academy and potentially really high picks. We have an open salary cap so we can go out and take a free agent of our choosing IMO.

We should be all up and about about our future IMO.

Yep you are right, we haven't let guys go for nothing like in the Malthouse era, or pushed guys like Tuohy out for SOS vanity selections from GWS like we did in the Bolts era.

You have to remember we live in a world where fans/media expect everything to be linear. Have a good season = you will keep improving exponentially and win the next 5 flags. Have a bad season = rebuild mode and will keep sinking to the bottom.

Could we be garbage next year? Of course we could, but usually 3-4 sides from the previous years top 8 change for a variety of reasons. Maybe us and Port were relatively popular picks to drop out of the 8 from 2024 to 2025, but very few would have predicted Sydney to finish 10th, or Port to drop as far as they did. I think people thought Crows would rise, but not finish top of the home and away ladder.

Bottom line is history is littered with false dawns, false narratives of sides being cooked etc. I think we will be battling for one of the lower positions in the 8.

 

[Jimmae]

Quick list management math:

Senior list

Out: 7

Silvagni
De Koning
Fantasia
Docherty
Durdin
Lemmey
Curnow

In: 5

Reidy
Chesser
Ainsworth
Florent
Hayward

Rookie list

Out: 1

Cincotta

In: 0

Rookie list is oversubscribed by 1 due to SSP

This can either be a promotion or a delistment.

My understanding is that White and Young are currently uncontracted.

Also in Limbo:

McGovern (uncontracted)

Elijah Hollands (strong reports will be paid out)

Considerations:

Need list spots for draft picks so we can do pick matching. Probably need at least two more spots.

Probably need to bring in a key forward for depth.

Will be 1 SSP slot for HOF (ACL)

Thoughts:

Delist White and Young offer train on spots for SSP

Retain McGovern for depth

Delist Hollands, maybe offer train on.

Gives you the option to draft 1 more kid than Dean and Ison

You've also got draft picks for points to consider, so we may cut even further.

 

[Blue1980]

We said the same thing about Martin and Cuningham until it didn't happen and was evident it wasn't going to. Teasing with potential and never happening. I think he is another who received a longer contract than he should have. If this season ever happens then great but I am not holding my breath.

Putting Cerra in the same category as Martin and Cuningham isn't fair. Cez has played 72 games in 4 seasons at Carlton and placed high in b&f's in 2 of those seasons, Cuningham played 58 games in 9 seasons. Martin played 54 in 5 seasons.

 

[ctwenty1]

You've also got draft picks for points to consider, so we may cut even further.

We have nine live picks already, dont think we need to cut futher

THose latter picks will just drop if we bring in more picks for points

 

[Jimmae]

We have nine live picks already, dont think we need to cut futher

THose latter picks will just drop if we bring in more picks for points

Everyone has their preliminary picks, the rest get deleted once lists are finalised before the draft.

So we will have to cut deeper if we split picks before then.

 

[ctwenty1]

Everyone has their preliminary picks, the rest get deleted once lists are finalised before the draft.

So we will have to cut deeper if we split picks before then.

presumably (hopefully) that would mean cutting but then inviting them back as a train on and see what happens there

 

[Christou2Kouta]

Cerra was fine this year, if we had a season where we were 14-9 as opposed to 9-14, people would be happy with his season. Wasn't elite, but it was good.

I thought Cerra was excellent in the first half of the year. He dropped off a bit after that but he wasn't Robinson Crusoe there. Individual performance is greatly affected by the synergy of the group so I'll forgive him for that.

What I like about him is he is a genuine two way, inside outside midfielder. He doesn't just resort to the cheap sideways kick to maintain possession, he'll often try to pick off a more meaningful target in the middle of the ground and then follow up as an option for them. And defensive pressure isn't an after thought for him, he is fierce in his tackling efforts.

I also like that he is professional in his preparation. You know he's doing everything he can to sort out the hamstring issues. I think he is quite capable of making a leap to A grade if we can get the right group around him. It will be interesting to see the impact of Tim Clarke's new role focusing on stoppages and set ups, while hopefully we can develop a more dynamic transition game plan with the increased running power of Florent, Chesser, Ainsworth and Hayward around our midfielders.

 

[Blue1980]

I thought Cerra was excellent in the first half of the year. He dropped off a bit after that but he wasn't Robinson Crusoe there. Individual performance is greatly affected by the synergy of the group so I'll forgive him for that.

What I like about him is he is a genuine two way, inside outside midfielder. He doesn't just resort to the cheap sideways kick to maintain possession, he'll often try to pick off a more meaningful target in the middle of the ground and then follow up as an option for them. And defensive pressure isn't an after thought for him, he is fierce in his tackling efforts.

I also like that he is professional in his preparation. You know he's doing everything he can to sort out the hamstring issues. I think he is quite capable of making a leap to A grade if we can get the right group around him. It will be interesting to see the impact of Tim Clarke's new role focusing on stoppages and set ups, while hopefully we can develop a more dynamic transition game plan with the increased running power of Florent, Chesser, Ainsworth and Hayward around our midfielders.

He also isn't on huge coin, so the rate of return on him is potentially very high. I think supporters have a tendency to blame the good players we do have rather than looking at the solution being to get more good players in to complement what we have.

 

[The Great Ian]

We have enough depth now that allows Ollie Hollands to properly develop his quarterback role in the VFL and eliminate those clanger turnovers.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

But if you’re forcing clubs to trade up, that distorts the market, and can put a club over a barrel.

The problem is the previous DVI was so far out of whack that clubs could get guns way too cheaply. This has largely been addressed. People are ignoring the size of the change, and I think if the current DVI had been set from the start, people would be largely happy with the system now.

You want a system to be simple, with as few anomalies as possible.
If they’re really set on clubs matching with a higher pick, perhaps the best way would be one adjustment to the current system where you need at least 1 pick (your first matching pick) within 17 picks of the bid (18 when Tassie come in), and then make up the points as you want.

But really they should run the current system for a few years to see if the changes they made after a year’s worth of work actually work.

that’s not true because you aren’t having to trade with just one club. If you make an offer to say three clubs for their pick and none take it, than what do you think the reason for that is?
It’s pretty simple, they value the higher pick more than your offer. This is the issue with FS and Academies that for some reason people keep ignoring.

The reason they need a deficit for a two pick matching system is because clubs don’t know when the bids coming and it’s unfair that compensation picks downgrade picks.

Again I can’t understand how people don’t get the fact that the AFL want clubs to burn high picks on high bids. If you can’t trade up to say 5 picks within the bid than it’s pretty obvious what the market is telling you.

 

[bradfisher14]

We have enough depth now that allows Ollie Hollands to properly develop his quarterback role in the VFL and eliminate those clanger turnovers.

2025 AFL season

Ollie Hollands - 2.7 clangers per game

Dayne Zorko (best "quarterback" in the game IMO) - 3.9 clangers per game

 

[CJMB]

We said the same thing about Martin and Cuningham until it didn't happen and was evident it wasn't going to. Teasing with potential and never happening. I think he is another who received a longer contract than he should have. If this season ever happens then great but I am not holding my breath.

apples & oranges

Cuningham had a career average of 6 games and only reached double figures (12) twice.

Martin better, but still a career average of 14 and 11 at his time with the Blues.

Cerra has a career average of 19 (the same as Cripps) and 18 at the Blues. 2024 by far his worst year with 13, which was around Martin's average and better than DC ever managed.

 

[gbatman]

apples & oranges

Cuningham had a career average of 6 games and only reached double figures (12) twice.

Martin better, but still a career average of 14 and 11 at his time with the Blues.

Cerra has a career average of 19 (the same as Cripps) and 18 at the Blues. 2024 by far his worst year with 13, which was around Martin's average and better than DC ever managed.

Putting Cerra in the same category as Martin and Cuningham isn't fair. Cez has played 72 games in 4 seasons at Carlton and placed high in b&f's in 2 of those seasons, Cuningham played 58 games in 9 seasons. Martin played 54 in 5 seasons.

Cerra has been underwhelming in his time at Carlton. Has not reached the heights that we thought he would. Has had injuries and has appeared to become slower over the years for a player who should be in his prime. Yes played a few more games than the mentioned but has still been injury prone.

I don't think anyone here is going to believe that Cerra has delivered what we thought he would.

He has and has been good only by Carlton standards which we all know are also underwhelming and something we all hope will change.

 

[Sucker for Trade Period]

I thought Cerra was excellent in the first half of the year. He dropped off a bit after that but he wasn't Robinson Crusoe there. Individual performance is greatly affected by the synergy of the group so I'll forgive him for that.

What I like about him is he is a genuine two way, inside outside midfielder. He doesn't just resort to the cheap sideways kick to maintain possession, he'll often try to pick off a more meaningful target in the middle of the ground and then follow up as an option for them. And defensive pressure isn't an after thought for him, he is fierce in his tackling efforts.

I also like that he is professional in his preparation. You know he's doing everything he can to sort out the hamstring issues. I think he is quite capable of making a leap to A grade if we can get the right group around him. It will be interesting to see the impact of Tim Clarke's new role focusing on stoppages and set ups, while hopefully we can develop a more dynamic transition game plan with the increased running power of Florent, Chesser, Ainsworth and Hayward around our midfielders.

This! THIS!!

He's so versatile and his tackling and defensive positioning clearly goes unnoticed. I'd love to see him become more damaging with his inside-50 kicking to really elevate him to that A-tier calibre of player, which I think will be possible with faster players and quicker ball movement around him.

He was easily our best player in the first half of 2023 and he was our best player for the first half of 2025. Room for improvement still of course

 

[gbatman]

Where to people think E Hollands will play position wise if he is given another opportunity?

I would be willing to try him at half back. Two way runner, smart player, pretty hard at it, has looked good when playing wing and dropping back. But the main thing is that he is a very good field kick. Could see him as an accumulating half back who kicks accurately, runs all day and can pinch hit in the midfield.

I think spots at half forward are probably tied up with Ainsworth, Hayward, Kemp, Williams, Moir etc.

My guess is that he may well be staying, not sure we would still have a player on our list who we plan to offload, would have thought that would have been done by now as it would have been in the best interest for the player.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Still think we need depth in terms of big units on the list to play back or fwd to cover for the absence of CC, JSOS, the injured Kemp and HOF, youth/inexperience of Dean and HOK.

What happens if Harry or Weits are injured? Need more than Lewis Young

33

Lewis Young

Age

26

Ht

202cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

197.9

3star

D

4.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

3.0

3star

T

0.0

1star

MG

26.0

1star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.2

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

6.4

5star

T

2.0

4star

MG

181.6

3star

.

VFL SANFL, WAFL, delistings - what’s around to help?

 

[Faz 2000]

2025 AFL season

Ollie Hollands - 2.7 clangers per game

Dayne Zorko (best "quarterback" in the game IMO) - 3.9 clangers per game

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Zorko also had 10 more kicks and 270 more metres gained a game.

 

[heatleystandend]

It’s a subjective game and everyone’s opinion is valid. But using some meaningless CD statistic to show you are right is just wrong (IMO).

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Don't stress about Ollie Hollands, he is a good player for us and still very young, he will only get better.

 

[ctwenty1]

Where to people think E Hollands will play position wise if he is given another opportunity?

I would be willing to try him at half back. Two way runner, smart player, pretty hard at it, has looked good when playing wing and dropping back. But the main thing is that he is a very good field kick. Could see him as an accumulating half back who kicks accurately, runs all day and can pinch hit in the midfield.

I think spots at half forward are probably tied up with Ainsworth, Hayward, Kemp, Williams, Moir etc.

My guess is that he may well be staying, not sure we would still have a player on our list who we plan to offload, would have thought that would have been done by now as it would have been in the best interest for the player.

Very early post conclusion of trading and I'd imagine we are still determining how many players we will bring in through the draft etc

We will make the call early enough so that he has an opportunity to find a home elsewhere. We wont be dicking him around.

 

[Aphrodite]

Lij alleged rumours creeping into this thread and just a friendly reminder:-

Folks, this is the way things are here.

Posters are responsible for what they post. Moderators can not attest to the accuracy or otherwise of any rumour posted.

Moderators will intervene for a couple of reasons :-

1. If a thread is threatening to be derailed because of a post.

2. If invested parties request the removal of material.

None of this draws a conclusion as to the accuracy or otherwise of the original post.

There is no need to further speculate. What will be will be.

There have been some damning posts (1 in particular) in this thread and Lij alleged rumours have been creeping into other threads as well.

Clean up has been done.


Thanks all.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

The thing we should be focusing on now is our midfield.

Smith will be an exciting addition, but we def need to bring in more talent in the next few years.

Walker is another one.

This year's draft, Robey seems to be the best fit to complement them.

If I was to do a quick phantom of the top 10 or so

1 - Duursma WCE
2 - Uwland WCE -> GC
3 - CDT WCE
4 - Patterson RICH -> GC
5 - Grlj RICH
6 - Robey RICH
7 - Annable ESS -> LIONS
8 - Sharp ESS
9 - Cumming / Lindsay / Schubert / X.Taylor / Phillipou ESS

Moving up the order to pick 6 (9 after bids) from Ess probably won't be enough to draft Robey. They'd probably swoop on him if Richmond don't take him. Grlj I think is a tailor made option for the Tigers, so while it might be a reach at pick 5, I think they call his name out.

We'd need to try and work our 27 1sts in with our 25 1sts to try and move up to pick 4. But we'd need a third club involved because Tigers only have 38 to give back and we'd need more than that to match the Dean bid if we get rid of both 9 + 11.