List Mgmt. 2026 List management - pt.1

[gringo2011]

Hindsight is very interesting here. This is our 2018 list: https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2018/st-kilda

We lost the following in their primes playing great football: Steven, Armitage & Roberton

Looking like handy Pieces who we missed due to Injury: Stevens & Carlisle

Careers wiped out by injury: McCartin, Goddard, Gresham, Paton, Dmac, Freeman, Coffield, Clark, Longer


Im not sure if that's normal, Looking at that its like the club was just murdering black cats under ladders by breaking mirrors on them type of thing. Its a horrific run to lose so many to injuries.

Yes we were incredibly unlucky but also relentlessly stupid. Freeman, Carlisle, Hanners etc were all trades that cost draft capital and added very little to the side. We should have been drafting hard in that time and adding to the pool of talented youth. Only 20% or something play 100 games, the chances of every one of your kids being stars or above average even is remote.

We had a terrible recruiting department, poor list management and terrible luck. Essendon looks like they are modelled off us now. It's like anything they touch turns to shit.

 

[westernsainter]

Add Sharman as a mid-season, Wood as an SPP signing has been excellent, Stocker and Caminiti been consistent best 22 players as SPP signings. If you are included a pick 38, then Windhager in the 40s deserves a mention. If we are including 'and now maybe Scerri', then Garcia and Boxhall as late picks also are an 'and now maybe'/

We've done extremely well with our selections from late picks or supplemental drafts.

Sharman has shown flashes but doesn't hold a candle to any of the names listed at Freo. Same goes for Stocker and Caminiti for that matter. Windy was an NGA pick. I hope you are right about Garcia and Boxshall - but our track record doesn't give me much hope.

 

[gringo2011]

What I don't understand about the forward movement is why we haven't been able to get it right for so long.

I remember watching us in 2004 from my level 2 HFF vantage point and seeing how players led through space, but never stayed in space, so the space was then available for someone else.

Considering other teams manage it (Hawthorn have perhaps the best front six group in the league), I just can't wrap my head around why we cannot. We have talent, they appear coachable (look at how Higgins plays now compared to 2022), and we still end up with three marking forwards 60m away from a wing stoppage and no one inside 50. When we get a mark/free kick 70m out, we all know where the ball is going to be kicked to. It's predictable and holds us back, because we have the cattle down back and have massive scope for improvement in the middle.

We are playing a pretty inexperienced set up. Only Higgins and Ryan are on 100+ games. Sharman and Owens should start to step up now and Hall is probably needed further from goal. Butler is experienced but looks like we have moved past him.

We really need a tall option down there. We also aren't what you'd call a potent looking set up on paper.

 

[gringo2011]

I think the narrative of Flanders being a butcher is a bit overblown. He has hit a lot of targets going inside 50, especially as compared to the rest of our midfield. Some of his handballing has been average but he's made some nice plays as well. Playing in a new team, new role and isn't even a 100-gamer yet, I think he's going pretty well.

De Koning is the one who really needs to lift his output imo he's shown flashes but we need more than flashes.

Flanders isn't a butcher butcher but it's almost worse because he just times them wrong and they go just over fingertips or slow runners down to go back and c lean up his mess. Perhaps it's just a temporary thing while he adjusts to a new team though.

 

[BrutThough]

Sharman has shown flashes but doesn't hold a candle to any of the names listed at Freo. Same goes for Stocker and Caminiti for that matter. Windy was an NGA pick. I hope you are right about Garcia and Boxshall - but our track record doesn't give me much hope.

Sharp was playing at Peel Thunder last year his form got so bad but he's worthy of a mention while regular, best 22 players for us arent good enough.

Hilarious.

 

[gringo2011]

I think it’s all coaching, especially Mitchell. Hawthorns list is not that amazing. They’ve hit on one top pick (Watson) and others that have either failed or are meh. Their starting midfield without Day is very average on paper and their bottom 4 or 5 wouldn’t be better than ours. Scott is the best in the business and Mitchell is an absolute gun. Hawthorn are a huge outlier in the equalisation discussion and how they have been able to go do go down and then come back up again whilst the likes of us continue to be mediocre.

Our list has a lot of talent that the coaches need to start to get more out of.

It's their experience level where the bulk are now around 100 games. We are still a very uneven list. Old and young with a thin middle age bracket and most of that bracket of any quality is injured.

 

[SanDelOeste]

I mean, if Jack Steele

9

Jack Steele

Age

30

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

8.7

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

6.8

5star

CL

3.6

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

5.0

2star

HB

11.8

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

6.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

keeps this form up and Macrae returns to what he showed in the first two rounds (I know he wasn't fit, but he played), then it’s entirely fair to question the list management and take the L. However, it’s only f****n round four, so let’s see where things land at the end of the season.

I understand we couldn’t keep both but moving on a 185-game heart-and-soul player for someone at a similar level doesn’t look great on the surface. However, it doesn't seem like Steele at the Saints under Ross was salvageable anyway, so we need to move on.

One thing though - I see there's been a lot of talk about building for the future, and the claim is Steele wasn't gonna be around for a flag tilt anyway, but we've brought in win now-ish recruits. Silvagni (28), TDK (26 turning 27), Liam Ryan

31

Liam Ryan

Age

29

Ht

181cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

2.7

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

9.9

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.6

5star

(29 turning 30), Flanders (24 turning 25), alongside two of our few A-graders being Wilkie (30) and Sinclair (31). Either way, we need to start putting wins on the board and it's fair we get criticised if we don't start doing that after our summer, starting with Port this Sunday. If West Coast who just got pumped by 130 can beat them in Adelaide and we lose to them, I'm preparing for an all-time melt, as is my right.

 

[gringo2011]

They've traded a lot of draft capital out. Have benefitted from a massive go home factor combined with the worst period in Eagles history.

And this iteration have one finals win to show for it. I'm officially pumping the brakes.

As I have said everywhere, two things can be true at the same time. St Kilda haven't drafted well. But we've also been hamstrung by the system.

Freo will jump hard at some point. They are a younger list than most and already quite good. Once they become a seasoned hardened side they will be scary good. Not many holes now.

 

[stavro#4]

Some thoughts in response:

• there's a reason Sharman was overlooked for a couple of drafts. He has a lot of the traditional football skills, but perhaps he's not particularly fast, athletic or strong, or overly tall. If he had one of those things to add to his existing skill set, he'd probably be a 40-50 goal a year forward. Also worth pointing out his entire permanent time as a forward under Lyon has coincided with Max King's absence.
• Owens wasn't drafted as a forward (a forward I think he is, but he wasn't drafted as one). Higgins played mostly midfield at Richmond.

So to a certain extent it is cobbled together. It's why you spend a #1 pick on a key forward: there aren't many to go about. Eight blokes kicked 50 goals last season (and Morris needed finals), Higgins finished 10th with 46. So that's about one every two teams (flip a coin you have one or not). It's the tease on King: fit and firing he would make a huge difference, and Lyon has never really had him. In 2023 he played 10 games (not counting the Melbourne game where he got hurt in the first minute), in a team less potent than in 2025 (!), and he kicked 28 goals. With a decent run at it, he should be a 60-70 goal forward, and that also makes the rest of the guys' jobs easier.

But Hawthorn have a bloke who was drafted in 2009, and a couple of lower picks and some elite smalls. They manage it, and it's hard to deny it is down to coaching.

hmmm.

Now that everyone has played, what stands out is just how closely we follow the AFL Average across a number of metrics.

and How little we exceed that average in attacking stats.

Defensively, the areas Ross targeted are all significantly better.

Intercept Possessions we are 4th averaging 70. Sydney First on 74.

Last year, 18/19 (AFL average is listed on the list)

Centre clearances we are 5th. last year 14/19

we do seem to struggle at stoppages however.

We have improved our contested marking. However we just fall down in the attacking statistics. Our game is standing up in Midfield and Defence.

• Lowest total goal scorers in the league (TDK Marshall Flanders + a few more yet to kick one)
• Accuracy at goal is horrid. well off the top of the list here
• Number of Offensive 1 on 1s we are bottom quartile - HOWEVER, we are top 2 for winning %
• surprisingly we are getting more scores forward half then what's being generated back half.

Its actually really hard to work out what the fix is, as its a bit all over the shop as to what the issue is.

I think immediate takeaways is that, whilst yes we could do with a big tall clunking and kicking a few. If we could improve our half back generation whilst leaving Nas as is, We could probably find 2 more goals per game here - that could be the difference between 2-2 or 3-1 and our current 1-3 reality.

It would definitely help our looks inside 50 and help us hit some targets.

feel free to look yourself. Ive long felt like we needed Max back, But im starting to think it might be time for Clark/Hastie coming in and trying something more aggressive off Half back.

AFL Team Statistics

AFL team statistics.

www.wheeloratings.com

 

[gringo2011]

So you have already back peddled here.

Because nows its focusing on Wood, who has stood up in key moments even if he is well down.

Wilkie and Sinclair are probably our 2 best performed players. Hill would be In our top 10.

the issue isn't our elder statesmen it isn't even the 4 we have brought in.

It's the youth we have backed. Now it may be a case of ebbs and flows. But they need to find 4 quarter consistency immediately.

Wilson, Pou, Tauru, Hall, Nas, Windy, Owens.Caminiti, Garcia, Hastie, Boxshall, Travaglia.

these guys all need to rise - even Nas who has been good without hitting the heights we talked him up to.

Again those guys are going to be inexperienced and inconsistent until they all get closer to 100 games.

Henry, King, Dow, Byrnes, TDK, Stocker, Nas, Sharman, Owens, Windy, Flanders, Caminiti are the group where the consistency and drive needs to come from.

Hastie, Boxshall and Tauru haven't got 20 games between them yet.

Wilson has been fast tracked so a bit more is expected but Garcia is on 30 matches still. That is where you see improvement, not finished product.

 

[stavro#4]

Again those guys are going to be inexperienced and inconsistent until they all get closer to 100 games.

Henry, King, Dow, Byrnes, TDK, Stocker, Nas, Sharman, Owens, Windy, Flanders, Caminiti are the group where the consistency and drive needs to come from.

Hastie, Boxshall and Tauru haven't got 20 games between them yet.

Wilson has been fast tracked so a bit more is expected but Garcia is on 30 matches still. That is where you see improvement, not finished product.

I agree.

im saying this is where the improvement must (and will) come from. Its not getting more juice from the 30+ guys

 

[Diehard Saint]

If West Coast who just got pumped by 130 can beat them in Adelaide and we lose to them, I'm preparing for an all-time melt, as is my right.

I’ll be taking at least a two-month sabbatical from this board…

 

[gringo2011]

Some thoughts in response:

• there's a reason Sharman was overlooked for a couple of drafts. He has a lot of the traditional football skills, but perhaps he's not particularly fast, athletic or strong, or overly tall. If he had one of those things to add to his existing skill set, he'd probably be a 40-50 goal a year forward. Also worth pointing out his entire permanent time as a forward under Lyon has coincided with Max King's absence.
• Owens wasn't drafted as a forward (a forward I think he is, but he wasn't drafted as one). Higgins played mostly midfield at Richmond.

So to a certain extent it is cobbled together. It's why you spend a #1 pick on a key forward: there aren't many to go about. Eight blokes kicked 50 goals last season (and Morris needed finals), Higgins finished 10th with 46. So that's about one every two teams (flip a coin you have one or not). It's the tease on King: fit and firing he would make a huge difference, and Lyon has never really had him. In 2023 he played 10 games (not counting the Melbourne game where he got hurt in the first minute), in a team less potent than in 2025 (!), and he kicked 28 goals. With a decent run at it, he should be a 60-70 goal forward, and that also makes the rest of the guys' jobs easier.

But Hawthorn have a bloke who was drafted in 2009, and a couple of lower picks and some elite smalls. They manage it, and it's hard to deny it is down to coaching.

Sharman has been dropping a few marks he'd usually clunk but he looks a much better player as he heads to around 100 games now. He's running guys down, tapping balls into space for others and generally competing in the air even if he's fumbling them.

He looks like it could really click for him at some point this season. If he was playing on the second best defender or King was pulling the best one out wide he would find life a lot easier.

Owens is similar. Actually so is Tauru. If we could somehow work it to play three taller mid sized options along side Snags, King and Ryan it could be a really unique POD. All three are quite good in the air so you play talls on them but they are all quite agile too.

 

[The Punter]

hmmm.

Now that everyone has played, what stands out is just how closely we follow the AFL Average across a number of metrics.

and How little we exceed that average in attacking stats.

Defensively, the areas Ross targeted are all significantly better.

Intercept Possessions we are 4th averaging 70. Sydney First on 74.

Last year, 18/19 (AFL average is listed on the list)

Centre clearances we are 5th. last year 14/19

we do seem to struggle at stoppages however.

We have improved our contested marking. However we just fall down in the attacking statistics. Our game is standing up in Midfield and Defence.

• Lowest total goal scorers in the league (TDK Marshall Flanders + a few more yet to kick one)
• Accuracy at goal is horrid. well off the top of the list here
• Number of Offensive 1 on 1s we are bottom quartile - HOWEVER, we are top 2 for winning %
• surprisingly we are getting more scores forward half then what's being generated back half.

Its actually really hard to work out what the fix is, as its a bit all over the shop as to what the issue is.

I think immediate takeaways is that, whilst yes we could do with a big tall clunking and kicking a few. If we could improve our half back generation whilst leaving Nas as is, We could probably find 2 more goals per game here - that could be the difference between 2-2 or 3-1 and our current 1-3 reality.

It would definitely help our looks inside 50 and help us hit some targets.

feel free to look yourself. Ive long felt like we needed Max back, But im starting to think it might be time for Clark/Hastie coming in and trying something more aggressive off Half back.

AFL Team Statistics

AFL team statistics.

www.wheeloratings.com

Scoring accuracy hasn't been down at 42 (on Wheelo's ratings, comparing like for like) since 2019.

And the 1 on 1s: the eye test tells me this is about separation from each other and forward craft (again the three blokes next to each other 60m from stoppage). We should win 1 on 1s forward when we get them: that's where Mitch Owens plays.

My views on the three losses are as follows:

Collingwood: system right, attitude right, execution "pre-season-esque", Collingwood cleaner
Melbourne: attitude unacceptable
Brisbane: too good when it mattered

Feels like we are playing "problem whack-a-mole" at the moment, which makes judging us hard.

 

[Mav3rick]

hmmm.

Now that everyone has played, what stands out is just how closely we follow the AFL Average across a number of metrics.

and How little we exceed that average in attacking stats.

Defensively, the areas Ross targeted are all significantly better.

Intercept Possessions we are 4th averaging 70. Sydney First on 74.

Last year, 18/19 (AFL average is listed on the list)

Centre clearances we are 5th. last year 14/19

we do seem to struggle at stoppages however.

We have improved our contested marking. However we just fall down in the attacking statistics. Our game is standing up in Midfield and Defence.

• Lowest total goal scorers in the league (TDK Marshall Flanders + a few more yet to kick one)
• Accuracy at goal is horrid. well off the top of the list here
• Number of Offensive 1 on 1s we are bottom quartile - HOWEVER, we are top 2 for winning %
• surprisingly we are getting more scores forward half then what's being generated back half.

Its actually really hard to work out what the fix is, as its a bit all over the shop as to what the issue is.

I think immediate takeaways is that, whilst yes we could do with a big tall clunking and kicking a few. If we could improve our half back generation whilst leaving Nas as is, We could probably find 2 more goals per game here - that could be the difference between 2-2 or 3-1 and our current 1-3 reality.

It would definitely help our looks inside 50 and help us hit some targets.

feel free to look yourself. Ive long felt like we needed Max back, But im starting to think it might be time for Clark/Hastie coming in and trying something more aggressive off Half back.

AFL Team Statistics

AFL team statistics.

www.wheeloratings.com

I think we're a bit confused in our gameplan at times. We try to go fast and handball into pressure, and then slow it down and go into our shell when we could pump it into one on ones. We just don't know yet which gear to shift into at what time.

The stat that jumps out most to me is we are -210 handball metres gained compared to our opposition. We don't handball forward and release teammates into dangerous areas and we can't stop the opposition from doing the same. That's a huge reason why our opposition get higher quality inside 50s and more bang for buck.

 

[gringo2011]

Scoring accuracy hasn't been down at 42 (on Wheelo's ratings, comparing like for like) since 2019.

And the 1 on 1s: the eye test tells me this is about separation from each other and forward craft (again the three blokes next to each other 60m from stoppage). We should win 1 on 1s forward when we get them: that's where Mitch Owens plays.

My views on the three losses are as follows:

Collingwood: system right, attitude right, execution "pre-season-esque", Collingwood cleaner
Melbourne: attitude unacceptable
Brisbane: too good when it mattered

Feels like we are playing "problem whack-a-mole" at the moment, which makes judging us hard.

The forwards definitely seem to all go at the same ball. Ryan and Sharman are the only ones that seem to have any idea of how to help others score goals when they can't themselves.

Melbourne was a combination of them setting themselves to beat us by stopping the players that provide all our drive and us not respecting them enough. Collingwood also turned us into the hunted and we had no idea how to break out of their shackles.

 

[westernsainter]

If West Coast who just got pumped by 130 can beat them in Adelaide and we lose to them, I'm preparing for an all-time melt, as is my right.

I think I'm making peace with it already!

 

[thekizzler]

View attachment 2575126

I think I'm making peace with it already!

I'm not sure how these stats are even remotely relevant when we have played the premiers, a preliminary finalist and a team that has been a recent contender versus a team that has played North Melbourne, Essendon, West Coast and Richmond.

Come on.

 

[westernsainter]

I'm not sure how these stats are even remotely relevant when we have played the premiers, a preliminary finalist and a team that has been a recent contender versus a team that has played North Melbourne, Essendon, West Coast and Richmond.

Come on.

I probably agree but anything short of a two-goal win pretty much locks in that we are bottom-six adjacent. I'm not sure I see the positive case for us at the moment.

 

[thekizzler]

I probably agree but anything short of a two-goal win pretty much locks in that we are bottom-six adjacent. I'm not sure I see the positive case for us at the moment.

We're favourites to win. We should win. If we don't, it's disappointing.

But a 9-point win doesn't put us in the bottom six or bottom six adjacent lol.

Right now you are the hyperbole king.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

If you have a top 5 pick and Father Sons/Academy picks are bid on in the top 5 and turn your top 5 pick into 6+ the AFL is going to compensate clubs with an End of First round pick

Knowing the Saints we'll finish 14th

 

[westernsainter]

We're favourites to win. We should win. If we don't, it's disappointing.

But a 9-point win doesn't put us in the bottom six or bottom six adjacent lol.

Right now you are the hyperbole king.

I can't make a case for us being anywhere above the 12th best team in the competition at the moment.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

I can't make a case for us being anywhere above the 12th best team in the competition at the moment.

Best we then close down the season now and play a 2nd string side for better draft picks

 

[Diehard Saint]

Scoring accuracy hasn't been down at 42 (on Wheelo's ratings, comparing like for like) since 2019.

And the 1 on 1s: the eye test tells me this is about separation from each other and forward craft (again the three blokes next to each other 60m from stoppage). We should win 1 on 1s forward when we get them: that's where Mitch Owens plays.

My views on the three losses are as follows:

Collingwood: system right, attitude right, execution "pre-season-esque", Collingwood cleaner
Melbourne: attitude unacceptable
Brisbane: too good when it mattered

Feels like we are playing "problem whack-a-mole" at the moment, which makes judging us hard.

So not even doing the same thing wrong consistently.
Does that talk to still a pretty young mix of players and/ or a team still trying to gel?

 

[SainterinSydney]

I’ll be taking at least a two-month sabbatical from this board…

Port in Adelaide--I never feel confident, notwithstanding our good win against them last year.