Autopsy 3 things you learnt v Hawks

[Tedeski]

Mummy is injury prone and both he and the swans knew it.

On the ruck. Tippet was not recruited as a stop gap ruckman. He was recruited as a power forward. FFS play him there. Don't allow him out of the 50 ever. I mean ever. Only to change ends.

Spot on with Tippett.
If pyke is injured, let him rest & play Nankervis. If Nankervis is injured, let him recover & play DRex.
If DRex is injured, play the next best available 'ruckman'. Rucking is for secialist ruckmen. Key forwards should play as key forwards.
If Buddy is carrying an ankle injury & can't roam around dangerously, then rest him & play Reid in that role.
Horse is so obsessed with having versatile players that can play many different roles but unfortunately they haven't yet mastered their strength.

 

[skipper kelly]

The margin in the end is irrelevant.
It is all about the manner in which we give in. This is not something we are used to from our team in our recent history. It is the main reason why the coaches have persisted with certain players after a loss. The coaches know that the players will turn things around the following week.

Unfortunately I fear that some of our guys have lost the physical ability to give themselves a chance to turn it around even though their mind says they can going into the game.

I look back at the strong stance & really tough decision the club made with ROK last year when we were 1 & 3. Poor guy never got another look in, yet based on the performance of 95 % of our players on GF day, one can't help but feel that ROK would have shown some ticker to the end.

No doubt under the recent banner of the Bloods Culture, we have relied on being a hard working team where everyone covers for one another at each & every contest. We no longer resemble that team, even when we have won games this year as it seems many players are just concerned about their own job on their opponent & that the peeling off to lend a hand has disappeared.
In turn, we are conceding multiple unanswered goals on multiple occasions. Again this is something not seen at our club prior to 2012 & going back to the beginning of Roos coaching.

We saw a poor game against Melbourne a few years back where we lost by 72 points or so at the MCG. That was more uncharacteristic from us though & Roos had something to work on with the players to turn them around though.
Unfortunately this time around, performances like last night start to take a toll on the players' confidence, making it a little easier to roll over every time a game seems to get away from them a little.

This is what makes a good coach.
Getting back into the players' heads & telling them that they aren't as bad as the scoreboard suggests.
Telling Shaw, Teddy & Goodes that they still have a role to play for 2015.
Telling Sam Reid that he has the ability to take his game to another level. That is the most important job for any of our coaches now & rather than judge the players, we will now look at how well this group of coaches can get into their minds in order to turn things around next week.

More important than the result is how we play for 4 quarters.
Whether the players can once again trust each other enough to leave their direct opponent & help out a team mate. The ability to do that has gradually disappeared IMO since the GF & it is a critical part of success.
The encouragement for each other has been replaced by finger pointing & shaking of the head. Not something that radiates confidence & it can spread across the list rapidly.

Over to you Horse & Co. You have limited players to work your magic on but I have no doubt that win lose or draw next week, we will see a group of players that once again care & look out for each other on the field of play.

Good post as usual Ted.

I find it hard to judge coaches these days other than on the scoreboard. With all the subtleties of the current game who is actually in charge of all the moves. The players, the lines coaches, group think? ****ed if I know.

 

[Donners]

On the ruck. Tippet was not recruited as a stop gap ruckman. He was recruited as a power forward. FFS play him there. Don't allow him out of the 50 ever. I mean ever. Only to change ends.

The problem is that everyone is so Buddy-focussed that he becomes a mere decoy - and a bloody expensive one at that.

As a primary or equal target with the likes of Reid or Goodes he's a good option, but there's not enough room for him with Buddy there, at least with the gameplan we've seen this season.

 

[DannyJ]

I thought Goodes was good. Moved much better than last year

 

[Grongey]

1. The deliberate out -of-bounds rule is a blot on the game and needs to be scrapped, along with the rushed behind rule. The ruling against J.Kennedy in the 2nd quarter was ridiculous, and changed the momentum ogf the game

2. The Hawks just run too deep. It's like trying to block a colander with a pencil

3. Our defence isn't coping too well.

 

[skipper kelly]

The problem is that everyone is so Buddy-focussed that he becomes a mere decoy - and a bloody expensive one at that.

As a primary or equal target with the likes of Reid or Goodes he's a good option, but there's not enough room for him with Buddy there, at least with the gameplan we've seen this season.

What you say is true, but they should be able to work together with Buddy leading up the ground more. All my uneducated opinion of course.

 

[skipper kelly]

1. The deliberate out -of-bounds rule is a blot on the game and needs to be scrapped, along with the rushed behind rule. The ruling against J.Kennedy in the 2nd quarter was ridiculous, and changed the momentum ogf the game

The one against Hawthorn late in the game was also a disgrace. Pay them all or pay none.

 

[skipper kelly]

I thought Goodes was good. Moved much better than last year

That's about as good as we will see him move from now on. Certainly was one of our best last night.

 

[Skeparovic]

Ok so I didn't want to post last night so that I could leave the emotional reasoning out of my thought process. Last night despite the scoreboard and end result I want to focus on some positive aspects.

1. Swans matched Hawthorn's physicality and I would perhaps suggest they even went a tad too far with it. They did not allow themselves to be walked over or ridden into the ground which was one thing BF posters were demanding post 2014 GF.

2. Pagans (or Longmire's) paddock doesn't work too well when Swans have one player forward of the middle of the ground and their opponents have 3.

Having half forwards and forward pockets continually playing roles as defenders means that you will often win the ball in the back half region as you will outnumber your opponents which swans do well however this also comes at a cost. (A) IF the swans win the ball back in defence pretty much their only option is to run and handball daisy link style to move the ball forward due to having no forwards in front of the ball carrier (B) when pressure is maintained on the ball carrier from defence or a zoning opponent confronts the ball carrier a panicked kick forwards to a hopelessly outnumbered swans key forward more often than not eventuates in an turnover. Subsequently the Swans get punished on the rebound by the other zoning defenders from the opposing team who spread into free space (remember they were unmarked by the swans forward pocket/flanker players being sucked into swans team defence role) who are able to hit up their teams leading targets (swans players are out of position having ran forward from defence) with apparent ease much to the dismay of BF fans. (C) midfield and forward flanker/pocket players from swans have to run non-stop in both directions in a very taxing style of play perhaps moreso than other teams. Fatigue is one factor that invariably effects kicking precision. I wonder whether the game style is causing too much fatigue amongst midfielders/wingers/forward flankers and contributing to poor delivery forwards? If the structure can be tweaked to increase swans players forward of the centre square i think kicking efficiency could also improve.

3. Don't write Swans September chances off in July after one game against Hawthorn. The players sure havent decided they should pack up and go on holidays after yesterdays game so i think calls for sacking coach etc are a bit of an extreme reaction to ONE game.

 

[The King!]

I thought we looked fired up in the first half. We just stuffed up shot at goals and ball movement in the 1st quarter. We had as much ball as them, we got it out of the middle as much as them, we got it inside 50 as much as them but we didn't score. Reid, Lloyd and Jack in the 1st quarter in front of goals.......... Then the 2 late goals in the 2nd quarter took the wind right out of us. The 2nd half was awful, but Hawthorn were amazing.

We played bland defensive footy from the outset imo, got possies yeah and whilst i concede we got opportunities for shots they just ran up and scored because of or set up.

This bs hold the ball gameplan and use jetta like he is Cam Newton behind the offensive line keeps stats even

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Ok so I didn't want to post last night so that I could leave the emotional reasoning out of my thought process. Last night despite the scoreboard and end result I want to focus on some positive aspects.

1. Swans matched Hawthorn's physicality and I would perhaps suggest they even went a tad too far with it. They did not allow themselves to be walked over or ridden into the ground which was one thing BF posters were demanding post 2014 GF.

2. Pagans (or Longmire's) paddock doesn't work too well when Swans have one player forward of the middle of the ground and their opponents have 3.

Having half forwards and forward pockets continually playing roles as defenders means that you will often win the ball in the back half region as you will outnumber your opponents which swans do well however this also comes at a cost. (A) IF the swans win the ball back in defence pretty much their only option is to run and handball daisy link style to move the ball forward due to having no forwards in front of the ball carrier (B) when pressure is maintained on the ball carrier from defence or a zoning opponent confronts the ball carrier a panicked kick forwards to a hopelessly outnumbered swans key forward more often than not eventuates in an turnover. Subsequently the Swans get punished on the rebound by the other zoning defenders from the opposing team who spread into free space (remember they were unmarked by the swans forward pocket/flanker players being sucked into swans team defence role) who are able to hit up their teams leading targets (swans players are out of position having ran forward from defence) with apparent ease much to the dismay of BF fans. (C) midfield and forward flanker/pocket players from swans have to run non-stop in both directions in a very taxing style of play perhaps moreso than other teams. Fatigue is one factor that invariably effects kicking precision. I wonder whether the game style is causing too much fatigue amongst midfielders/wingers/forward flankers and contributing to poor delivery forwards? If the structure can be tweaked to increase swans players forward of the centre square i think kicking efficiency could also improve.

3. Don't write Swans September chances off in July after one game against Hawthorn. The players sure havent decided they should pack up and go on holidays after yesterdays game so i think calls for sacking coach etc are a bit of an extreme reaction to ONE game.

Its not one game tho we barely scrapped past the line against 18th last week, there is to much to change this year and to many players have fallen off the cliff for us to get even close.

Im not writing them off due to yesterdays game im writing them off as a flag chance purely based on the last 4 weeks.

 

[skipper kelly]

We played bland defensive footy from the outset imo, got possies yeah and whilst i concede we got opportunities for shots they just ran up and scored because of or set up.

This bs hold the ball gameplan and use jetta like he is Cam Newton behind the offensive line keeps stats even

Fair enough. I'm only referring to what I saw in the first half. The ball was down our end enough and the ball came out of the middle our way enough to give us a chance. I thought we looked fired up enough but were let down by poor conversion and poor movement (which is poor footy) and allowing 2 late goals (which is also poor footy). After that is was a romp in the park.

 

[The King!]

Fair enough. I'm only referring to what I saw in the first half. The ball was down our end enough and the ball came out of the middle our way enough to give us a chance. I thought we looked fired up enough but were let down by poor conversion and poor movement (which is poor footy) and allowing 2 late goals (which is also poor footy). After that is was a romp in the park.

Maybe, but then regardless they rolled us until that patch in the second where it seemed done and yeah Bud tried to drag us in, but mcveigh got involved, we moved it quick and attacked.

Got their defence exposed one out

Then some of the worst umpiring seriously, gifted them two goals, but whatever, we made it competitive by attacking

Then seriously after half time we went back to the hold the ball crap and defensive

 

[skipper kelly]

Maybe, but then regardless they rolled us until that patch in the second where it seemed done and yeah Bud tried to drag us in, but mcveigh got involved, we moved it quick and attacked.

Got their defence exposed one out

Then some of the worst umpiring seriously, gifted them two goals, but whatever, we made it competitive by attacking

Then seriously after half time we went back to the hold the ball crap and defensive

I didn't want to say that but........it pissed me off big time

 

[RainMachine]

Maybe, but then regardless they rolled us until that patch in the second where it seemed done and yeah Bud tried to drag us in, but mcveigh got involved, we moved it quick and attacked.

Got their defence exposed one out

Then some of the worst umpiring seriously, gifted them two goals, but whatever, we made it competitive by attacking

Then seriously after half time we went back to the hold the ball crap and defensive

Yep. We thrive off playing the tightrope.
Watch that second half against freo, we played on the edge one missed hball or kick and turnover goal and we were done. nearly pinched it too

 

[Skeparovic]

Its not one game tho we barely scrapped past the line against 18th last week, there is to much to change this year and to many players have fallen off the cliff for us to get even close.

Im not writing them off due to yesterdays game im writing them off as a flag chance purely based on the last 4 weeks.

Gotta keep context in mind though with the Brisbane game. Swans were playing them when the Lions key players all returned from injury whereas against other teams Lions had a 2nd strength midfield and no Merritt marshalling defence.

Swans game style is defence oriented which means they will never rack up dominant high scores like the hawks gamestyle.

I agree that a lot of players have underperformed in certain aspects of their game (e.g fumbling more, dropping easy marks, missing targets, dropping off tackles).
Think personnel changes are required amongst the playing group however as long as Swans are top 4 come September anything is possible should they play at their best and the other teams be slightly off.

 

[The King!]

Yep. We thrive off playing the tightrope.
Watch that second half against freo, we played on the edge one missed hball or kick and turnover goal and we were done. nearly pinched it too

To me that says ability it there

Gameplan and skills are questionable

 

[Swans_01]

1. I don't really agree that the effort was lacking. Missed the first quarter, but in the second and third quarter our effort was there and we matched Hawthorn in everything but efficiency. Constant inside 50s for nothing but minor scores. What did Hawthorn have, something like 10 inside 50s at one stage for 9.1? Our effort wasn't there in the fourth quarter, but that was after the team became demoralised after throwing everything at Hawthorn for no result (not really excusable but understandable). That was the big difference between the sides, efficiency and skill with ball in hand. It's why I don't necessarily think Dunkley and Mills will make a huge difference, we already have plenty of those types of players. What we need is more players with the skill level of McVeigh and Jetta, but with more hardness.

2. I would leave Nankervis as the number one ruckman for the rest of the season, even if Pyke is fit. It was him in the ruck when Buddy kicked those three goals in a row in the second quarter. Was beasting the ruck contests and tackling like Mumford used to. He reminds me a fair bit of Mumford and think he can become a similar type of player for us (although maybe not quite as good).

3. I have never seen a more biased umpire than that prick Stevic. Constantly pays free kicks to Hawthorn for nothing at all, exhibit a. that free kick and then the 50m penalty against Buddy. He actually looks like he is smirking after Hawthorn kick goals, should never be allowed to umpire another Hawthorn game.

 

[Superstar swan]

1. Our backline is the worst in the league. No composure, no football iq. How many times week in week out do we have 2 and 3 defenders competeing against one opponent. Thats junior football errors. Against a team like the hawks , they will make you pay every time. The defenders are "soft". They fall to the ground far too easy and i think they are taking the easy option. Richards, grundy, rampe and smith are the worst culprits. Shaw has many faults these days but at least he keeps his feet, ge just gives away too many frees. The only player capable of standing up in a tackle/contest down there is jones.

2. When our midfield cannot bash and crash an opponent into defeat, they are shot. Non competitive against the hawks mids.

3. Kurt tippett is not a ruckman a$$ hole.play him forward ....leave him there

4. Not something i learnt but rather something i want to learn. Why does it seem every one of our centre clearances are a snap/mongrel kick to chf. We lack any penetration out of the centre. The hawks and others have got systems in place where they can find a players running forward and kick with some intent. Our mids flock like seagulla to the ball and just scramble forward. We dont have any set plays in the middle

 

[Vin Rogue]

The margin in the end is irrelevant.
It is all about the manner in which we give in. This is not something we are used to from our team in our recent history. It is the main reason why the coaches have persisted with certain players after a loss. The coaches know that the players will turn things around the following week.

Unfortunately I fear that some of our guys have lost the physical ability to give themselves a chance to turn it around even though their mind says they can going into the game.

I look back at the strong stance & really tough decision the club made with ROK last year when we were 1 & 3. Poor guy never got another look in, yet based on the performance of 95 % of our players on GF day, one can't help but feel that ROK would have shown some ticker to the end.

No doubt under the recent banner of the Bloods Culture, we have relied on being a hard working team where everyone covers for one another at each & every contest. We no longer resemble that team, even when we have won games this year as it seems many players are just concerned about their own job on their opponent & that the peeling off to lend a hand has disappeared.
In turn, we are conceding multiple unanswered goals on multiple occasions. Again this is something not seen at our club prior to 2012 & going back to the beginning of Roos coaching.

We saw a poor game against Melbourne a few years back where we lost by 72 points or so at the MCG. That was more uncharacteristic from us though & Roos had something to work on with the players to turn them around though.
Unfortunately this time around, performances like last night start to take a toll on the players' confidence, making it a little easier to roll over every time a game seems to get away from them a little.

This is what makes a good coach.
Getting back into the players' heads & telling them that they aren't as bad as the scoreboard suggests.
Telling Shaw, Teddy & Goodes that they still have a role to play for 2015.
Telling Sam Reid that he has the ability to take his game to another level. That is the most important job for any of our coaches now & rather than judge the players, we will now look at how well this group of coaches can get into their minds in order to turn things around next week.

More important than the result is how we play for 4 quarters.
Whether the players can once again trust each other enough to leave their direct opponent & help out a team mate. The ability to do that has gradually disappeared IMO since the GF & it is a critical part of success.
The encouragement for each other has been replaced by finger pointing & shaking of the head. Not something that radiates confidence & it can spread across the list rapidly.

Over to you Horse & Co. You have limited players to work your magic on but I have no doubt that win lose or draw next week, we will see a group of players that once again care & look out for each other on the field of play.

Not so shaw that I agree with your conclusion. We can hope they have that confidence to be exposed when assisting another swan under the hammer, but as you have argued, confidence has become bruised to the point that saving one's own skin has become more important than doing the team thing. I think though, it is about a team that is growing old. The skills are not what they were and their pace has gone. But their head refuses to believe. This looks and smells like a crisis. West Coast and Port have been here in the past few years. Geelong is going through it right now. Collingwood is emerging. Time for left field thoughts?

Buddy to centre half back. Reid to centre half forward. Grundy to full back. Time to inject some dollars into the backline.

 

[Punts]

1 : Underated game by T Mitchell imo , has worked very hard on his defensive side and good on him to persist in the NEAFL even though he should had been in the 22 to start with , shows he wants to play for the red and white.
2 : Rampe is not a KD ffs , what do they expect from him when he plays tall every week then plays on a gun like Gunston , how is he suppose to defend someone like Gunston and create run from HB. He is a 188cm HBF not a KD , where not in the days of Dunstall , Derm.
3 : Don't give a shit about Tippetts average 3 goals a game bullshit he is overpaid and no better than White , not one single mark last night and besides last week and one good quarter against an average Dees he has been SHIT this year , yep shit I said it. I don't buy the leave him in the forward 50 crap , why is he not taking marks around ground like a 2nd ruck does , would rather B Brown or Casbolt for half the price and maybe we could of got a decent defender.
4 : Don't wanna see Jones sub again , if I remember think he hit TARGETS last night.
5 : This long bombing ( slingshot ) bullshit is rubbish , its Horses game plan kicking to out numbered contest all the time or look up on the rebound and have no one to kick to forward because we have pushed all our HF etc up the ground to defend. Harry at ff on Gibson and Lake ffs or Buddy with 3 on him.
6 : The Reid move to defence should of been last year to give him time to develop when he wasn't getting a kick in the forward line , now we have a 32 year old who is on his way out playing on guys like Roughy ffs.
7 : ill heck off to my own board now

 

[The King!]

T mitchell was good

Shaw was too to be fair to the old fart

 

[Neverwas]

MARKETABILITY!

Yes, and we are sooooooo marketable now aren't we.

 

[The King!]

The club pays lip service to its members

Thinks they just want to see highlights from big forwards

 

[Neverwas]

1 : Underated game by T Mitchell imo , has worked very hard on his defensive side and good on him to persist in the NEAFL even though he should had been in the 22 to start with , shows he wants to play for the red and white.
2 : Rampe is not a KD ffs , what do they expect from him when he plays tall every week then plays on a gun like Gunston , how is he suppose to defend someone like Gunston and create run from HB. He is a 188cm HBF not a KD , where not in the days of Dunstall , Derm.
3 : Don't give a shit about Tippetts average 3 goals a game bullshit he is overpaid and no better than White , not one single mark last night and besides last week and one good quarter against an average Dees he has been SHIT this year , yep shit I said it. I don't buy the leave him in the forward 50 crap , why is he not taking marks around ground like a 2nd ruck does , would rather B Brown or Casbolt for half the price and maybe we could of got a decent defender.
4 : Don't wanna see Jones sub again , if I remember think he hit TARGETS last night.
5 : This long bombing ( slingshot ) bullshit is rubbish , its Horses game plan kicking to out numbered contest all the time or look up on the rebound and have no one to kick to forward because we have pushed all our HF etc up the ground to defend. Harry at ff on Gibson and Lake ffs or Buddy with 3 on him.
6 : The Reid move to defence should of been last year to give him time to develop when he wasn't getting a kick in the forward line , now we have a 32 year old who is on his way out playing on guys like Roughy ffs.
7 : ill heck off to my own board now

Agree with everything Punts. It was clear that Mitchell is very much worthy of his spot and we would have been much worse without him. Also think that Nankervis could be what Tippett was supposed to be, a good forward/ruck. Yes, Jones hits targets and creates opportunities. The regular players are unbelievable in how they can stuff up. Richards was directly responsible for several goals early with panic stricken play. The writing is on the wall that the kids need to be blooded. It is a blessing in disguise that we will have no alternative to play them next week because I doubt the coaching panel would have the gumption to do it themselves.Yes the kids will be rough around the edges but the gulf between the NEAFL and elite AFL is so huge they will never develop if they dont get a game.