You saw how big a loss Ellis was with the form of MacIntosh and Pickett. Hard tough uncompromising and quick players that by and large controlled their wings all season. Ellis was no loss at all. None. Markov has far more upside and played pretty good footy for us this year and was the unluckiest player on our list not to be in the GF side. (Caddy and Ross next in line). Ellis would not have been playing this year at Richmond.
Player Watch #31: Oleg Markov
- Thread starter Heisenberg_
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Well Well Well Who would have thought that Oleg Markov is worth more than Jesse Hogan in a trade
All the best to Oleg he was a loyal servant of the RFC and played alongside some of the greats in Martin , Cotchin,Rance,Riewoldt and Higgins
Wish him all the best and hope he has a great Career with the Suns
All the best to Oleg he was a loyal servant of the RFC and played alongside some of the greats in Martin , Cotchin,Rance,Riewoldt and Higgins
Wish him all the best and hope he has a great Career with the Suns
Played well this year, but was always going to be a shrinking contact at punt road. Him, Higgins, Caddy & Ross all an injury away from getting a GF call up. As a wise poster said don't want to have players on big coin running around in the VFL team. RFC don't fight/spend to keep depth players. Had Houli retired it would have been perfect. Still got plenty of depth.
Dr Awkward
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I'm disappointed because I feel like Houli has one year left and then Oleg is perfect to take that spot for the long-term future. I guess I'll just have to console myself with 3 flags.
A 3rd rounder is probably fair when you consider it is GC 3rd rounder, so will basically be at the end of the second round.
A 3rd rounder is probably fair when you consider it is GC 3rd rounder, so will basically be at the end of the second round.
telsor
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People who don't factor in the trade 'value' of dumping Hogan's salary?
sregit
Club Legend
Teams do not give first or second round draft picks for fringe line players. No matter if they are at a top side or not. Yes Markov was close to being in our 22 but he was a fringe/depth player.
Spot on. Matter of fact. Enough said.
Define fringe/depth player....?
Would a fringe player be between roughly the last few picked, say 5, in a team and the last 5 left out of a team?
So for us would the following players fit your definition:
Jack Ross
Jason Castagna
Jack Higgins
Daniel Rioli
Josh Caddy
Riley Collier-Dawkins
Nathan Broad
Kamdyn McIntosh
Callum Coleman-Jones
Sydney Stack
Marlion Pickett?
Are you saying clubs wouldn’t pay a first or second round draft pick for any of those?
I would be pretty surprised if Higgins, Ross, Collier-Dawkins, Stack and Coleman-Jones didn’t attract at least second round picks in the event we traded them this year.
But is that what you mean by fringe/depth players?
Following are some trades that may be of interest to you:
2019
Lions last year gave their second rounder for Callum Ah-Chee who had been a bit of a fringe player at Suns.
2018
Tom Hickey to Eagles for pick 39, a 26yo who had averaged about 11 games per year at Saints.
Setterfield to the Blues essentially for two second round picks.
Sam Mayes to Port Adelaide for the value of about a mid second round pick. He got 6 games with Lions in 2018.
2017
Hayden Crozier for the value of a late second rounder.
Sam Murray had never played a game for Swans and Collingwood gave up the expected value of roughly a late second rounder for him.
Matthew Kennedy to Carlton for pick 28.
Think these are all pretty clear examples of players who were either fringe or on the outer with their clubs prior to being traded who attracted at least the value of a second rounder. This is without counting players like Jack Watts and Josh Schache.
Having said that, a pick expected around mid 40’s for Markov in what promises to be a draft with good depth seems fair enough to me. I guess others probably have the same feeling I do, you watch him play those games this year and he really looked to have something good to offer, so you’d probably rather keep him than get the pick.
I am just happy for Oleg, he will get the opportunity to play regular senior football. He was an important piece of our puzzle who fitted in when we needed him, like so many of our players who are part of our game plan. It is these guys over the past few seasons who have kept us winning when we had the name players out injured or unavailable. These guys are the one or two wins that have squeezed us into the top 4 in the 3 premiership years.
They have had to be content on the sidelines at the business end of each season knowing they played a critical part yet not directly sharing in the prize. I salute their contributions to our club and wish them every success. They will always be Richmond men.
They have had to be content on the sidelines at the business end of each season knowing they played a critical part yet not directly sharing in the prize. I salute their contributions to our club and wish them every success. They will always be Richmond men.
sregit
Club Legend
I classify a fringe player as one that fails to play regular senior football.
Caddy, Ross, Higgins, RCD, CCJ and Stack would fall into that category as would have Markov. Obviously the club does not want to move them all on as they see potential/upside in some of them.
if the club had thought Markov was the player with the most upside they would have retained him. Other clubs obviously do not see the potential in him that you do, else better offers would have been forthcoming. The club would have held out for a better pick if they thought he was worth more. I'm not aware of multiple clubs chasing Markov.
A players value is the best that a club will pay and you can throw up what other clubs paid for fringe players to support your case, however, you must have someone willing to pay the price. I suggest there was no club willing to pay the price.
Had the club demanded a 2nd rounder then Oleg may have ended on the scrap heap. I applaud the club for helping a fringe player continue his career elsewhere.
sregit
Club Legend
You are spot on with your analogy here.
Here's the thing. Physical attributes are one thing - there's a thousand mid-sized players out there who can run fast, kick a goal, man up on an opponent - every side has plenty of them already and there are dozens in the VFA, WAFL and SANFL. If you get a shot, you have to show quickly that you have that extra 'something' that a top-liner has. It's NOT the physical abilities or the ball skills - it's being able to be a teammate, it's making the right decisions, it's about being part of a unit rather than an individual. Sometimes it takes a few years and regular games - so Oleg might still get there.
Our current premiership backline has 3 players we picked up in the rookie draft. Probably none of them rated as well as Markov would have at a draft combine for speed, agility, vertical leap etc.
Our current premiership backline has 3 players we picked up in the rookie draft. Probably none of them rated as well as Markov would have at a draft combine for speed, agility, vertical leap etc.
Exactly right...
Certainly not a 1st round pick. But a future third is a bargain. Still good luck to GC, they have had their fair share of good players exit, so no problem really, and we have done our fair share in particular.
Agree per say, but Markov came in young and played very well, then spent the next few years constantly getting injured at the wrong time. Then we hit form and it was even harder to get a gig. This was the first year in many that he had a good run, and when he came in he looked the goods. Not many have the speed of Markov, especially at a good size.
You seem to have written that post as if I was arguing we should have got more for Markov in a trade. I actually stated in my post the pick seems fair enough.
What I was querying with my post was YOUR statement which was absolute:
"Teams do not give first or second round draft picks for fringe line players.”
Maybe I didn’t make that clear enough. The list I compiled of fringe type players who were traded for second rounders, has several line players on it.
So where do you sit with your statement that teams do not give first or second round picks for fringe line players? The statement seems definitively incorrect to me.
You wouldn't get a first rounder for any of them right now, second rounder for some of them, yes.
But not all fringe players have the same value, size, position, age, potential, previous AFL performance thus far, draft history, injury history, behaviour, etc. All play a part in players value.
Oleg Markov doesn't sit in the higher end of second rounder categories, a third rounder from GC which will probably be a fairly good third rounder is a good return. Its more than what we paid for him in the draft, and that is quite rare for a player who has barely played in 5 years.
Bob each way. Reckon Markov was given too cheap, but appreciate that Richmond have not only been good to players wanting a better run elsewhere, but also to clubs in the trading dept. Reckon there is more to Markov, but let's not cry over spilt milk, looks a bit ingracious with 3 medals hanging around my neck as we speak.
I think an item’s value is only truly determined by the market when a willing buyer meets a willing seller. And I would think there are some players on that list(copied below) who we wouldn’t let go for less than a top 20 type pick. Principally, Ross, Higgins, Stack, Coleman-Jones and probably Collier-Dawkins as well. And I don’t think the club would let ANY of them go for less than say pick 40, unless it was salary related or a non footballing type issue.
Jack Ross
Jason Castagna
Jack Higgins
Daniel Rioli
Josh Caddy
Riley Collier-Dawkins
Nathan Broad
Kamdyn McIntosh
Callum Coleman-Jones
Sydney Stack
Marlion Pickett
So yes, clubs might not be lining up to give high picks for these players but that is not the sole determinant of value.
I am sure the club has properly weighed all the elements of the Markov situation. I suspect he has been offered a contract beyond what we could afford for him and given the pick is probably commensurate with the contract, it is only fair to let him go. I expect him to do quite well at Suns though.
I look forward to claiming with my insurance the value of my 2015 Holden is 70k because I wouldn't sell it for less
I get what you're saying mate but in real life practice players are worth what someone will pay. The market rate for those players in practice would not get us first rounders, despite what we might value their potential as. It doesn't mean we have to sell them, by all means we should hold them if we value them. But it also means the worth you're placing on them would never eventuate, and if we had to trade them, the expectations would need to drop.
peternorth
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Settling into the GC nicely.
