5 year plan

[1980]

Anyone believe that this is where we expected to be in R1 of the 5th year of the 5 year plan?

Trying hard not to overreact, but this game has totally done my head in. If we dont play out of our skins against the Cats and beat the dogs, the Carlton game was no aberration. The whole argument that we need 5 years of development has been a sham.

And lets never ever give another coach a 5 year get ouf jail free contract

 

[emperor]

You're right about one thing '80, this game has done my head in too.

Just don't know what to think at the moment.

 

[Bojangles17]

Anyone believe that this is where we expected to be in R1 of the 5th year of the 5 year plan?

Trying hard not to overreact, but this game has totally done my head in. If we dont play out of our skins against the Cats and beat the dogs, the Carlton game was no aberration. The whole argument that we need 5 years of development has been a sham.

And lets never ever give another coach a 5 year get ouf jail free contract

for the first time in my life I find myself agreeing with ya man..im bloody livid

 

[beaver fever]

The problem with the 5 year plan is that it failed to develop enough youth and it failed to recognise the importance of the draft. Wallace felt we were good enough to make finals, so he pushed for finals in 2005 and 2006, which meant instead of finishing in the bottom 4 like we should have, we missed out on the cream of the national draft. This problem was further compounded by 2 things. Firstly Wallace continued to play older, experienced players instead of giving younger players more of a go (like Ratten did last night, like Malthouse does continually, like Clarkson did tonight) which meant that we couldn't sort through those players that were up to it and find the ones that were. Valuable AFL experience was soaked up by experienced duds and continues to be. Secondly we failed to respect the national draft and did not take enough kids. 3 national draft picks in 3 out of the 5 years was a disastrous policy, and what it effectively did was put too few eggs in the basket. Basically it means that we are relying on too few to make the grade. The 2005 draft was almost a complete failure, and the only player to come out of it is Matthew White, who himself has several deficiencies. 2004 only 1 genuine 22 player. Now we come to the point were we have 6 players over 30 and when they retire, the shit really will hit the fan. The club failed to bring enough balanced players with skills to the club and develop them into AFL players. I think the culture, mostly perpetuated by the senior players at the club has weakened the development of our young players.

 

[Tigersman]

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. There is still a lot to like about our list. I like everyone else on here feel pretty shattered with our effort but will wait for a month of football before sharpening the knives. That goes for both Wallace and the players. Lets hope this is a wake up call and a turning point.

 

[1980]

for the first time in my life I find myself agreeing with ya man..im bloody livid

Too shocked to be livid blowjobangles.

I feel like Mike Tyson knocked me out.

 

[Delids]

Beaver Fever SPOT ON.
Last year we sacked B2 in Miller not its time to sack B1.

Just coz you have been given a 5 year plan does not mean that you are going to be successfull. Just coz you have alot of players who are 23 years of age does not mean we are going to be successfull.

Sometimes I think we are a CHARITY CASE
Joel Bowden, Jay Shultz, Kayne Pettifer, Polak, Kane Johnson, JON should of been delisted if they could not have been traded.
Jordan Macmon I am going to cry.

Two years ago Port Adelaide offered us pick 28 for Jay Shultz, we said no becuase we wanted pick 26. At the end of the year we will not get a cracker for him.

 

[Catsace]

Amazed at pick 19 for Jordan McMahon. Steven King, who i know at the time was 28/29 y/o, was still a servicable premiership ruckman and he effectively was a giveaway for pick 90 (which Geelong didn't even use!) Prismall last year only went for pick 39, and he's a much better player than McMahon has ever been, even with his knee injury.

I still expect the Tigers to be pretty fired up to make amends next week, as usually any side coming up against us after a bad loss. Melbourne last year played us in Round 3 at Skilled after two 100+ point defeats, and Geelong won by 31 points. I am sure the Tigers will be keen to atone for last night.

 

[sante]

I too don't know what to think of it. I'm hoping like hell, that it is a one off, but playing Geelong next week means we'll lose again and our confidence will be shot. Season is over IMO.

We rely on confidence so much and after Round 2 it will be all but gone. I'm usually optimistic, but if we don't beat Geelong, then we're in for a long season.

 

[Hayashi_62]

When I first heard of the 5 year plan I seriously thought it was Wallace's attempt at gaining the fans support/mercy for a few years, and an attempt to try and stop them from turning on him. From an outsider's point of view, I don't think the Tiges are in that much better of a position after all that time, and that Wally should go.

I wasn't aware that Jordie was traded for such a high pick. We got Mitch Robinson at pick 40, which shows there's still better quality players straight out of the draft at that point or lower.

 

[beaver fever]

I wasn't aware that Jordie was traded for such a high pick. We got Mitch Robinson at pick 40, which shows there's still better quality players straight out of the draft at that point or lower.

There are quality players to find throughout the entire draft, and even the rookie draft. I'll never forgive Wallace for that trade.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

When I first heard of the 5 year plan I seriously thought it was Wallace's attempt at gaining the fans support/mercy for a few years, and an attempt to try and stop them from turning on him. From an outsider's point of view, I don't think the Tiges are in that much better of a position after all that time, and that Wally should go.

I wasn't aware that Jordie was traded for such a high pick. We got Mitch Robinson at pick 40, which shows there's still better quality players straight out of the draft at that point or lower.

The Dogs took Callan Ward with pick 19.

The kid is regarded as a future leader - very highly rated at Whitten Oval for his in-&-under, hard at the ball qualities. Already miles in front of McMahon on that score...
There was a time when it really looked like McMahon was ready to take the game by the scruff (2005ish), but he never took the next step.

FWIW, Scotty West said in the HUN in 2007 that McMahon "needs to understand that he should be one of the standout players in the competition." Westy also said that he'd never seen a more casual player in terms of weekly preparation...
Hard to change that sort of attitude 130 games down the track, and at age 26 or so...pity, because the raw ability is still probably there.

 

[Barnzy]

The Dogs took Callan Ward with pick 19.

The kid is regarded as a future leader - very highly rated at Whitten Oval for his in-&-under, hard at the ball qualities. Already miles in front of McMahon on that score...
There was a time when it really looked like McMahon was ready to take the game by the scruff (2005ish), but he never took the next step.

FWIW, Scotty West said in the HUN in 2007 that McMahon "needs to understand that he should be one of the standout players in the competition." Westy also said that he'd never seen a more casual player in terms of weekly preparation...
Hard to change that sort of attitude 130 games down the track, and at age 26 or so...pity, because the raw ability is still probably there.

He has no raw ability. People rave on about his kicking efficiency yet if you give him a long target instead of a short 10m kick he won't hit it. That's his main role in the team, basically a quarterback to run off halfback and hit targets. He can't do that properly and he can't defend because he is a little soft girl. Why keep him?

 

[froars]

The five year plan had to be, whether we liked it or not, becuase the topping up "no plan" had disastrous consequences on our club.
We've been there and said everything about the rebuilding so just best to leave it alone. Do we really need to have another thread about Buddy? Nup!
I don't think you can tell whether Wallace's plans worked until another five years or so to see the players picked up made the grade or not.
Not every player will make it, and I guess you just have to work out in comparison to other clubs' rebuilding, did we compare with them, do better or worse.
And more than likely, Wallace won't be around to see if he will be lauded or not for what he's done.

On paper last week, most people were pretty confident
What happened to that?
I know it was a crap game, but has everyone's positive thoughts gone out the window just on one game?
I know a win will turn all that around. As sure as I'm going to breath in the next second I know that will happen and everyone here will go the other way, like we're world beaters lol
Why? Because we've got mush in our heads lol
But mush because we've been through hell and back over the last 25+ years.

I do have sympathy, believe it or not, for those who are impatient for success. I guess I put up with more before I go off the rails.

 

[SolidTiger]

Anyone believe that this is where we expected to be in R1 of the 5th year of the 5 year plan?

Trying hard not to overreact, but this game has totally done my head in. If we dont play out of our skins against the Cats and beat the dogs, the Carlton game was no aberration. The whole argument that we need 5 years of development has been a sham.

And lets never ever give another coach a 5 year get ouf jail free contract

Even if we play good football against the Cats and Dogs it still is not good enough. Quite simply after five years of development these 'aberration' games should be behind us. On paper we should have had a closely fought win for the Carlton and your teams should have been on about the same level. Remember it was not Hawthorn or Geelong who belted us it was a team which is generally tipped to finish somewhere between 6-8 like us. If we do play well against the Cats or Dogs don't be fooled, there are still deep seated problems with our side.

Let's just face the truth here, the five year plan is a complete failure. We are just going to have to scrap the five year plan and pick ourselves up and get ready for more pain while another coach builds the list properly.

The only two 30 plus year olds that should be on our list next year is Richo and Cousins. Make some tough (and admittedly potentially unpopular) decisions to get top draft picks from the new Gold Coast team that is coming in soon. Also it is important for the club to inject serious money in the recruiting and drafting department for the next couple of years.

 

[one eyedtiger]

Anyone believe that this is where we expected to be in R1 of the 5th year of the 5 year plan?

Trying hard not to overreact, but this game has totally done my head in. If we dont play out of our skins against the Cats and beat the dogs, the Carlton game was no aberration. The whole argument that we need 5 years of development has been a sham.

And lets never ever give another coach a 5 year get ouf jail free contract

Same here. I can't beleive it. To get within 6 goals of geelong we are going to have play 100 times better. We can beat the bulldogs but then again we could've beaten the blues. If we start 0-3 there will be big questions asked. After 1 game we can't be calling for his head a lot of us are still fuming from the game. But in all honesty if we are 0-3 confindence will be dead and its a long way back from there.

 

[IDGAF]

i just don`t know about anything anymore after that 80 ...

i don`t know where it leaves Wallace ... i don`t know what the club does .

i just don`t know how it could happen ....

i am off to the sunshine coast and Byron for 2-3 weeks at the back end of this week , glad i am getting out of town .

if this was an abberation then it was a f...in big one .

The best i can sum it up is 5 years of hope and faith and sticking to a game plan just came crashing down in a massive heap in the space of two hours ...

All along we have been urged .... keep the faith .... keep the faith .

I just have no idea anymore

 

[Malifice]

The problem with the 5 year plan is that it failed to develop enough youth and it failed to recognise the importance of the draft. Wallace felt we were good enough to make finals, so he pushed for finals in 2005 and 2006, which meant instead of finishing in the bottom 4 like we should have, we missed out on the cream of the national draft. This problem was further compounded by 2 things. Firstly Wallace continued to play older, experienced players instead of giving younger players more of a go (like Ratten did last night, like Malthouse does continually, like Clarkson did tonight) which meant that we couldn't sort through those players that were up to it and find the ones that were. Valuable AFL experience was soaked up by experienced duds and continues to be. Secondly we failed to respect the national draft and did not take enough kids. 3 national draft picks in 3 out of the 5 years was a disastrous policy, and what it effectively did was put too few eggs in the basket. Basically it means that we are relying on too few to make the grade. The 2005 draft was almost a complete failure, and the only player to come out of it is Matthew White, who himself has several deficiencies. 2004 only 1 genuine 22 player. Now we come to the point were we have 6 players over 30 and when they retire, the shit really will hit the fan. The club failed to bring enough balanced players with skills to the club and develop them into AFL players. I think the culture, mostly perpetuated by the senior players at the club has weakened the development of our young players.

Lengthy read - but (from an outsiders perspective) spot on.

In the final year of a 5 year plan you'd certainly expect a far better list and performance than what was put on display Thusday.

We at Carlton paid the price for the Elliot years (refusal to use the Draft + Blatant salary cap rorting). In a big way. Our culture was shot, we were fined into oblivion, our list was a shambles, our home ground was a monumnetal $$$ nighmare, our coach was sacked and we finished last for the first time in a century in the competition.

Then Pagan came along - and while he hurt the club by trading for recycled hacks and duds from other clubs, at least he also had the balls to sack half the current playing list while he was at it.

Yes it led to us getting smashed from pillar to post for years. But we got games in the kids. And persevered. You can call it 'tanking' all you want - but trust me when i say this - we were just genuinly shit. And it was our own fault.

Off field, we got a new president, new development staff, new medicos, new training facilities, new fitness and conditioning staff. We rebuilt - from the top down. And we embraced the Draft.

Last year we were lucky to get Juddy - call him a mercenary all you want, but of all the clubs in Vic, Carlton was the one he wanted to play for. Ratts has come to the club. Young coach with new ideas. Bleeds navy blue. Now after 7 years of pain and embarrasment I can finally say with some confidence that we are headed in the right direction.

IMO - the Tiges need to start at the top. From the coach(es) and administration all the way down to the medico staff (Why put Cousins back on in the 4th? silly just silly - and Cotchin (gun) and his injury mismanagment). Develop facilities + implement financial plans. THEN look to the list. Use the draft for Kids, make tough decisions on the older blokes.

Sadly its going to hurt in the short term. You'll get smashed at first. But keep going the way you're going and in 1-2 years time when your half dozen or so 30+ players are all gone thats whats coming anyway.

BTW - Richo is a gun. One of your few players that bleeds yellow and black and can hold his head up after Thursday. I was cheering for him in the Brownlow last year.

Thats my 2 cents anyways.

 

[1980]

i just don`t know about anything anymore after that 80 ...

i don`t know where it leaves Wallace ... i don`t know what the club does .

i just don`t know how it could happen ....

i am off to the sunshine coast and Byron for 2-3 weeks at the back end of this week , glad i am getting out of town .

if this was an abberation then it was a f...in big one .

The best i can sum it up is 5 years of hope and faith and sticking to a game plan just came crashing down in a massive heap in the space of two hours ...

All along we have been urged .... keep the faith .... keep the faith .

I just have no idea anymore

Good line about 5 years came crashing down in 2 hours. Thats exactly how I feel.

I dont have a clue either. I'm changing my nic to IDHAC

Have a good trip away from this trainwreck.

 

[froars]

Lengthy read - but (from an outsiders perspective) spot on.

In the final year of a 5 year plan you'd certainly expect a far better list and performance than what was put on display Thusday.

We at Carlton paid the price for the Elliot years (refusal to use the Draft + Blatant salary cap rorting). In a big way. Our culture was shot, we were fined into oblivion, our list was a shambles, our home ground was a monumnetal $$$ nighmare, our coach was sacked and we finished last for the first time in a century in the competition.

Then Pagan came along - and while he hurt the club by trading for recycled hacks and duds from other clubs, at least he also had the balls to sack half the current playing list while he was at it.

Yes it led to us getting smashed from pillar to post for years. But we got games in the kids. And persevered. You can call it 'tanking' all you want - but trust me when i say this - we were just genuinly shit. And it was our own fault.

Off field, we got a new president, new development staff, new medicos, new training facilities, new fitness and conditioning staff. We rebuilt - from the top down. And we embraced the Draft.

Last year we were lucky to get Juddy - call him a mercenary all you want, but of all the clubs in Vic, Carlton was the one he wanted to play for. Ratts has come to the club. Young coach with new ideas. Bleeds navy blue. Now after 7 years of pain and embarrasment I can finally say with some confidence that we are headed in the right direction.

IMO - the Tiges need to start at the top. From the coach(es) and administration all the way down to the medico staff (Why put Cousins back on in the 4th? silly just silly - and Cotchin (gun) and his injury mismanagment). Develop facilities + implement financial plans. THEN look to the list. Use the draft for Kids, make tough decisions on the older blokes.

Sadly its going to hurt in the short term. You'll get smashed at first. But keep going the way you're going and in 1-2 years time when your half dozen or so 30+ players are all gone thats whats coming anyway.

BTW - Richo is a gun. One of your few players that bleeds yellow and black and can hold his head up after Thursday. I was cheering for him in the Brownlow last year.

Thats my 2 cents anyways.

What do you think we've been doing for the last 4 years?
Getting rid of 35-plus players is doing exactly what you say we should do
I'm sick to death of hearing people say we haven't gone on a youth policy when clearly we have.
BTW Carlton have achieved nothing yet, so stop the preaching as though you have.

 

[nut]

There is NOTHING wrong with our list. The five year plan has been spot on. Our list is STRONG and VERY healthy. I am however worried more about our game plan, our players decision making and our complete lack of intensity, this I'm happy to criticise Wallace for.
We are using the handball simply as a hot potato, we handball to players that are in worse positions, and we are completely stagnate. It was just too easy for Carlton to put us under pressure. Our players are running around to busy trying to work out where "they should be" rather than relying on natural instincts.
We basically lack understanding amongst the group.... we dont flow... we dont seem to know where or what our team mates are going to do... we dont gel..... This can be blamed on the coach. We need to be a united group who knows our game plan backwards..and our game plan lacks flow.. and lacks the fundamentals like tackling and pressuring the opposition... we are playing like the huntered and not the hunter .. it's not good enough for Wallace to blame the playing group... like others have said it's been 5 years and Thursday night was unacceptable and he needs to turn it around fast or he does not deserve to last the season.
I have been a Wallace supporter and still believe he can turn it around, but his time is running out.

Before we get too worked up check out the game below...

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2004/121320040516.html

 

[beaver fever]

What do you think we've been doing for the last 4 years?
Getting rid of 35-plus players is doing exactly what you say we should do
I'm sick to death of hearing people say we haven't gone on a youth policy when clearly we have.
BTW Carlton have achieved nothing yet, so stop the preaching as though you have.

Hmm youth policy eh? So that's why we brought in recycled duds in M.Graham, Knobel, P.Bowden, Polak, McMahon, Kingsley and now Cousins. That's why we never traded for more picks in the national draft, and even used those picks on recycled players. That's why we took barely the average number of kids that other clubs took. Youth policy my ****ing arseh*le.

 

[coke_zero]

Hmm youth policy eh? So that's why we brought in recycled duds in M.Graham, Knobel, P.Bowden, Polak, McMahon, Kingsley and now Cousins. That's why we never traded for more picks in the national draft, and even used those picks on recycled players. That's why we took barely the average number of kids that other clubs took. Youth policy my ****ing arseh*le.

just because you pick a kid doesnt mean they will be a gun

 

[nut]

Hmm youth policy eh? So that's why we brought in recycled duds in M.Graham, Knobel, P.Bowden, Polak, McMahon, Kingsley and now Cousins. That's why we never traded for more picks in the national draft, and even used those picks on recycled players. That's why we took barely the average number of kids that other clubs took. Youth policy my ****ing arseh*le.

M Graham was servicable for a season and we almost made the eight. Knobel was a bad choice but cost us nothing, P. Bowden finished in the top half dozen in the B&F, Polak?????Old? he cost us %$#k all???? Mcmahon not a good choice but hardly old either, Kingsley... well yes another one that didn't work, Cousins???? regardless of wether he plays another game he has paid for himself x 10.

WE HAVE NEVER HAD ANYTHING OF VALUE TO TRADE FOR PICKS....

 

[1980]

There is NOTHING wrong with our list. The five year plan has been spot on. Our list is STRONG and VERY healthy. I am however worried more about our game plan, our players decision making and our complete lack of intensity, this I'm happy to criticise Wallace for.
We are using the handball simply as a hot potato, we handball to players that are in worse positions, and we are completely stagnate. It was just too easy for Carlton to put us under pressure. Our players are running around to busy trying to work out where "they should be" rather than relying on natural instincts.
We basically lack understanding amongst the group.... we dont flow... we dont seem to know where or what our team mates are going to do... we dont gel..... This can be blamed on the coach. We need to be a united group who knows our game plan backwards..and our game plan lacks flow.. and lacks the fundamentals like tackling and pressuring the opposition... we are playing like the huntered and not the hunter .. it's not good enough for Wallace to blame the playing group... like others have said it's been 5 years and Thursday night was unacceptable and he needs to turn it around fast or he does not deserve to last the season.
I have been a Wallace supporter and still believe he can turn it around, but his time is running out.

Before we get too worked up check out the game below...

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2004/121320040516.html

Good contribution. Might add that we still lack character. Couple of mistakes and a couple of goals get kicked on us, and everything falls apart. Everyone drops their heads and panics.