Conspiracy Theory 9/11 - The debate continues

[TheBloods]

That explanation gets bandied about a lot. If that was Al Qaeda's true motive (which it very well may have been) then the only logical conclusion we can reach is they are pathetic strategists. Or they may have been coerced or lead to believe the Middle East would support their cause

Let's not forget, the US under Clinton attacked an ally to protect the Kosovars, who are predominantly muslims. Al Qaeda apparently even sent operatives into Bosnia to help their muslim brothers there.

America comes to the rescue and saves the Albanians from the Serbs, and stops another debacle in Macedonia by selling out the christians there.

To show their gratitude for Kosovo, Al Qaeda wait until a Texan enters the white house and carry out 9/11. Apparently, for the purpose of drawing the Americans into a war in the Middle East, in the naive hope the islamic world would rise as one and defeat the infidels. Even though the US is helping muslims in Europe, and isn't in the Middle East theatre yet.

Does not make any sense.

The only logical reason Al Qaeda would carry out the attacks would be to whip up public outcry about US Foreign policy re: Israel.

While Israel would be hoping like hell the US enters the Middle East and strengthens their position.

So Al Qaeda unwittingly achieved Israels goal. The US is in the middle east for the long haul.

If anything, Israel should be building a statue of Bin Laden and giving him the keys to the city, while the other ME countries should be hunting him down for crimes against Islam.

Either way, the widely accepted belief AQ actually wanted the US to wage war in the middle east is very, very flimsy.

The motives surely must have been about Israel or Oil, or both.

I think the West has been a poor strategist in recent years (at least). This can be seen clearly in the way Iran played the US over Iraq.

It only doesnt make sense to you as you do not think like an Islamist extremist. It fits the events rather well and it is the best theory I have seen.

 

[Blues_Man]

That explanation gets bandied about a lot. If that was Al Qaeda's true motive (which it very well may have been) then the only logical conclusion we can reach is they are pathetic strategists. Or they may have been coerced or lead to believe the Middle East would support their cause

Let's not forget, the US under Clinton attacked an ally to protect the Kosovars, who are predominantly muslims. Al Qaeda apparently even sent operatives into Bosnia to help their muslim brothers there.

America comes to the rescue and saves the Albanians from the Serbs, and stops another debacle in Macedonia by selling out the christians there.

To show their gratitude for Kosovo, Al Qaeda wait until a Texan enters the white house and carry out 9/11. Apparently, for the purpose of drawing the Americans into a war in the Middle East, in the naive hope the islamic world would rise as one and defeat the infidels. Even though the US is helping muslims in Europe, and isn't in the Middle East theatre yet.

Does not make any sense.

The only logical reason Al Qaeda would carry out the attacks would be to whip up public outcry about US Foreign policy re: Israel.

While Israel would be hoping like hell the US enters the Middle East and strengthens their position.

So Al Qaeda unwittingly achieved Israels goal. The US is in the middle east for the long haul.

If anything, Israel should be building a statue of Bin Laden and giving him the keys to the city, while the other ME countries should be hunting him down for crimes against Islam.

Either way, the widely accepted belief AQ actually wanted the US to wage war in the middle east is very, very flimsy.

The motives surely must have been about Israel or Oil, or both.

Al Qaeda have been targetting Westerners, and in particular Americans for years ..this would be a great coup for them....of course they wanted the US to wage war in the Middle East ..war is all those religious nutters understand .

 

[evo]

Can't remember all the details, but here is some info.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3882572&postcount=1

Thanks for digging that up. it was a pretty good read. I don't need to buy his book now.

this seems to be what he believes were the reasons....

1. To bring pressure on the Saudi government, which was allowing Saudis to funnel money to al Qaeda, to halt this enablement and to cooperate with U.S. intelligence. The presence of U.S. troops to the north of Saudi Arabia was intended to drive home the seriousness of the situation.
2. To take control of the most strategic country in the Middle East -- Iraq borders seven critical countries -- and to use it as a base of operations against other countries that were cooperating with al Qaeda.
3. To demonstrate in the Muslim world that the American reputation for weakness and indecisiveness -- well-earned in the two decades prior to the Sept. 11 attacks -- was no longer valid. The United States was aware that the invasion of Iraq would enrage the Muslim world, but banked on it also frightening them.

It seems to me a very expensive way both in money and human resources to "target Al Qaeda". What with the expense of this long protracted war and the GFC bailout the U.S has hamstrung it's economy, possibly for decades. And for what... to bring a few House of Sauds into line? Crazy.

I reckon reason two that he gives is the main reason they invaded Iraq but is more than just to target "other countries that were cooperating with al Qaeda." But rather to have a strategic large base in the area they see that was previously outside their control.

Reason 3 also makes sense although it does come at a cost. A whole new generation of middle easterners will grow up hating America.

 

[EasternTiger]

I think the West has been a poor strategist in recent years (at least). This can be seen clearly in the way Iran played the US over Iraq.

It only doesnt make sense to you as you do not think like an Islamist extremist. It fits the events rather well and it is the best theory I have seen.

Poor strategists in what sense? Surely not in regards to the only valuable resource Iraq has, which is oil.

Al Qaeda have been targetting Westerners, and in particular Americans for years ..this would be a great coup for them....of course they wanted the US to wage war in the Middle East ..war is all those religious nutters understand .

Inviting a much stronger country to come into your region and pillage your resources, as well as making a mockery of your culture and religion is not really a coup.

A coup would have been for the US to say to Israel "Ah these people are obviously nuts, we couldn't be bothered. You're on your own"

Like I said. Poor strategy.

And give them more credit than simply calling them 'religious nutters'. If they in fact carried out the 9/11 attacks then they are highly organised, skillful, intelligent, well funded and have a working knowledge of US defense systems.

Don't tell me they went to all that effort and murder just because "they hate our freedom and want to rumble"

If they wanted to help their muslim brothers, wouldn't it have been far more effective to fly planes into Israeli buildings instead? That way Israel would have reacted, the ME countries would have united and freed the Palestinians.

Instead, they chose New York

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

But you are not neutral. Of couse you only see it your way.

I wasn't referring to me being the neutral person. I believe a neutral person would find your responses to the questions pretty ordinary.

The questions and leading questions tactic was set up by Bloods simply to get ovation from the crowd of all you close minded lot, and provide ammo to snipe back as he did.

Did he get an ovation? If you think the questions are leading, articulate it and reframe it. Don't just cast doubts on his intelligence while failing to respond. It's pretty basic level deflection surely.

As for being closeminded, please tell me how exactly you are being openminded? Seems if you believe the conspiracy you are open minded and an independent thinker, despite only believing the conspiracy because of what the truth movement has told you, while if you believe the official story, you are a stooge, a sheep, a denier.

I'm not a lover of America, or a lover of its politics or politicians. I'm not adverse to believing there might be more to certain scandals. Marilyn Monroe's death (not murder by a Kennedy just more than simply suicide) and JFK's assassination to name a couple.

I do baulk at the idea that so many people could be complicit in a mass murder of fellow countrymen without someone cracking and revealing their part however. I do baulk at firemen that have lost their friends, lying about damage seen and withdrawal orders in order to protect the perpetrators. The fact that we have contentious issues and unknowns and new precedents being set, does not lend itself to some definitive evidence that surely must be revealed from thousands and thousands of actions in an extremely complicated process.

The fact that I don't look at something and say 'that proves something sinister' without first looking to see if it fits into the big picture and all the rules of logic, doesn't make me incapable of independent thought.

I knew that, but after his whine, gave him a chance to stop whinging about noone taking any notice of his rediculous questions! Rediculous because clearly he and most of you do not even consider what is contained in replies!

Surely that goes both ways?

I paid respect to Waspy... when he talks fact and shows that he has spent time thinking his opinion through. The majority you lot are just sprouting cut and pasting things you have found on the interwebs or the Official CT!

So you're suggesting is that we all analyse the collapses ourselves and give an opinion based on what exactly? Does all of your rebuttal come from your own mind?

What is the difference between offering rebuttal that someone else has come up with and offering your own? Can't you simply offer something to debate either?

It is very clear that you have not framed an opinion based on assessing both sides of the story.

I have tried ... really. I have looked at the other side but they are extremely one sided. Where as a lot of the debunking sites I have looked at, actually explore the conspiracy claims, acknowledge parts that are possible but offer plausible alternatives. Not all admittedly but I have seen it. The truther side frustrates me because they repeat old claims that have since been completely dispelled. Some truthers do the whole cause a disservice by repeating the same things regardless of how silly they look and how many times it has been disproved. When you refute evidence by simply saying that everybody is a liar and government disinformation agent, it does turn people off a little.

In these discussions you guys miss the big picture of just how many MANY coincidences and anomolies, are present in the whole OCT!

How can I miss them. They are brought up constantly. In the OP, in about 60 seconds, I summarised a list of them.

I put to you though that in almost every event that occurs on this planet, you can come up with a huge list of alternative theories as to what transpired. Hell, 10 people reading a sentence can probably come up with 10 different interpretations.

Throw up an event such as 9/11 that has millions of moving parts to it and the list of contentious issues we have is to be expected.

..and resort yourselves to delivering labels like "Troofers" and derision .. eg you didn't rebuke Bluesman (clearly a naive inexperienced chap with no real idea) or others for calling me an idiot! ....rather you chimed in for a back slap or was that a turkey slap?

Never used 'troofers'. Have used 'truthers' however as a common colloquialism for the self proclaimed truth movement. You find that insulting? We get called deniers, which automatically suggests we are in the wrong, so which one is more insulting?

I did mention that there are posters that have lost patience with the debate on both sides who will pop up like that. They don't set themselves up as being heavily involved in the debate and interested in answers. You did though, and then resorted to using dismissive name calling yourself. As I said, I am happy for you to do it, but you probably lose the respect afforded to someone who is involved in genuine debate IMO.

Hell.. if it wasn't for BVT ( I reckon he deserved a little bit of support) and a few others.... you lot would have to back & turkey slap alone!... and wouldn't have any discussion.

A lot more truther sites out there than debunking sites, as people usually don't get as passionate when the official story supports their own opinions.

The fun/interest (fast running out of appeal) is musing about how easily fooled the sheep of the masses are!

Isn't it funny what we do agree on, but with a completely opposite focus.

 

[Blight von Torp]

Hey Corp,

How about an answer about the basement explosives?

Let's see if you mention the same reasons that have been debunked time and time again.

Sorry for the large amount of text I've reproduced here, but you'll see that it demolishes waspy's idea that a falling elevator car could cause this amount of damage or a jet fuel fireball (which would have somehow had to have chosen to miss the shaft that car 50 with Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz were in).

If you are going to try and 'debunk' something, at least come up with a credible explanation.

Anyhow, there's 20 testimonies. I've cut out heaps, the whole thing is here with links to the original sources.

A. Employees of WTC-North Tower Who Describe The Event In The North Tower Sub-levels

1.Mike Pecoraro, Stationary Engineer and unnamed Co-Worker
a)Location: Sub-level C
f) Damage after the sound of an explosion: When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone. "There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press gone!"
g) Location of damage-C-level
h) The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone.
i) "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.
j) Parking garage and walls are gone.
k) As they ascended to the B Level they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds,wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor.
l)Comments, "They got us again referring to the WTC 93 bombing. He saw similar things after that bombing.
m) He was convinced a bomb had went off in the building.
n) Observes two victims, badly burned an injured.

2. Jose Sanchez, Maintenance Worker & co-worker, Chino
a)Location: Sub level 4 workshop.
b) Hears the sound of an explosion,” It sounded like a bomb went off."
c) Sees lights flicker.
d) Fireball in the freight elevator.
e) Singes hair and drops co-worker Chino to his knees.
f) Room fills with smoke, "I believe it was a bomb that blew up inside the building."
g) Chino's leg and knee apparently broken. He can't walk and gets assistance from Sanchez.
h) Fireballs do not break legs, however, concussion force can and does.
i) Exits at parking level lot on sub level 4 and sees many people fleeing.
j) "It took about 15 or 20 minutes to get outside and for me it was like a bomb with huge smoke all around.”
i) Comments he is lucky to be alive because he wasn't near the stairwell.

3. Phillip Morelli, construction worker, 7 year employee at WTC 1
a) Location-4th sub level, B-4 main freight car
b) "That is when I got blown. The impact of the explosion or whatever
happened threw me to the floor. And that’s when everything started happenin'. It knocked me right to the floor. You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock. Something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened then all the sudden you just felt the floor movin' and you get up... the walls, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, the elevators, you know what I mean fell down so I was right near the main freight car so I assumed what that was. Then you heard that comin' towards ya. I was racing I was goin' towards the bathroom, all of the sudden I opened the door I didn't know it was the bathroom and then the big impact happened again and then all the ceiling tiles started falling down the light fixtures were falling swinging, swinging out of the ceiling. I came runnin'out of the door and everything,the walls were down and I started runnin' towards the parkin' lots."
c) Nearly 100 floors below where the first plane hit.
d) Thought a car or something exploded on B-1 or something big and heavy got delivered and fell over.
e) Knew it was something big floor was moving underneath him
f) Reports smoke and people screaming
g) Got to parking lot and describes a lot of smoke, people screaming, and helping a person with a broken leg.
h) He and others run up the ramp from 1 to 2, as you have to do that to get out of the subbasement, it happens all over again. And got thrown to the floor.
i) Walls in the basement caved in.
j) Knows people got killed, broken legs, and reconstructive surgery because the walls hit them in the face.
k) No matter where you were in the building, you weren't safe.
l) Reports no fireball as the official story proposes.
Brief Summary: An explosion throws Phillip to the ground and causes the floor to move underneath him. The explosion destroys walls and a freight elevator that he was near. He runs to the bathroom and another explosion causes damage to the ceiling and lights and injured people are seen in parking garage. All of this damage people and the structure but not a single mention of the raging fireball that NIST states caused all of this damage. Phillip attempts to escape by going to Tower 2 exit and gets thrown to the ground for a second time!

4. Marlene Cruz, Carpenter, employee for 15 years
a) Location: elevator subbasement B, WTC 1
b) Hears an explosion that blows up the elevator, the elevator falls, and gets stuck
at B level.
c) Herself and the elevator operator are injured.

5. Arthur Delbianco-
a. Location: Above the basement but below the impact zone and eventually subbasemen B,WTC 1
b. Aruthur after the impact, assists in taking people down to the lobby. He mentions no fire or fireball in his elevator or his elevator shaft.
c. He then travels to sub level 1 and finds his friend Marlene Cruz and Hursley Lever, a mechanic.
d. He sees sprinklers are spraying water and ceiling tiles collapsed after arriving in the basement.
e. As the three are running through the chaos, when something occurs.
f. "The blast came from behind us and just pushed us down. We just slid for 25 or 50 feet."
g. He suffers personal injury in the form of a separated shoulder and broken knee.

6. Hursley Lever-ABM Employee Maintenance Worker

Brief summary-Hersley experiences two explosions. One he attributes to a possible transformer explosion and the second one is unclear. One might assume that it was a jet fuel fireball from the impact causing the second explosion, however, you will notice no mention and you will not see any burn marks on Mr. Lever in the interview. He is knocked down and his ankle is broken by a concussive force, not a jet fuel fire conflagration.

8. Salvatore Giambanco, a WTC office painter, just getting off of an elevator
...
m. “I remember riding in the ambulance that morning and looking back, thinking it had to be a bomb."
n. Upon learning an airplane had hit the tower: “Later they told me it was an airplane that hit the towers, but how could it just be an airplane? I know all the newspapers were saying that,but it was just too incredible to believe if you heard and experienced what I did. It had to be a bomb.”
Brief Summary: Salavatore hears an explosion, observes human damage from the explosion, and reacts to the environmental impact of the explosion, and believes it was a bomb. He mentions no fireball descending the elevator shaft that he jumped back into.

9. Bobby Hall-ABM Engineering Employee
... This involuntary action of being thrown to the ground matches Phillip Morelli account of being thrown to the ground by an explosion in the sub-levels as well. Bobby's account describes two explosions, possibly one from the plane and certainly one in the subbasement. Bobby could also be one of the male caller's in the PA transcripts calling from a cell phone to report injuries to victims and/or damage to the structure.

10. Kenny Johannemann-ABM Janitorial Services

11. William Rodriguez-WTC Janitor
.....

12. Anthony Saltalamacchia. -Morning Supervisor 100 workers-WTC:North Tower.

Brief Summary-Anthony and 14 to 15 other workers in WTC: North Tower basement level 1 experience a massive underground explosion and at least 10 secondary explosions prior to exiting the building. Again, no secondary fires are reported, no smell of jet fuel, no sign of a jet fuel fireball.

13. Edward McCabe-Engineer
a. Location: refergeration plant sub level 4.
b. He feels a shifting of the building
c. 30 seconds later,I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.
Seconds later through the smoke came people who worked beyond that door for the construction company.they were all secretaries,they walked like zombies not speaking I can smell their burnt flesh.one was bleeding pretty bad and i started to walk her to path train station across the plant. 1 woman seemed unharmed and i asked her what happened..she told me a bomb blew up their offices.when we got to the PATH platform i layed the woman down ,she thanked me,and i returned to the blown door to see if i could find anyone else.Sure enough there were more,.the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now and i can see there were no longer any walls just rubble.1 woman was under her desk refusing to come out.after a little coaxing she came and at this point a few of my colleuges,were sifting through the rubble,trying to find anybody

B. Police, Port Authority, etc. Transcripts In Response To An Event In The Sub levels of WTC: North Tower

The following accounts are from Port Authority transcripts that revolve around an event that took place in the basement of WTC: North Tower. Many of the callers are unidentified but could possibly be matched to some of the eyewitnesses above.

1. Unidentified Male Caller to Port Authority Police Department-
a. Location-Turner Construction right outside the 50 car, across the hall from 50 car.
b. “Officer, help.” We’re down on the B-4 level. There’s been a big explosion. We’ve got water lines open. There seems to be smoke and steam in the area.”

2. Male Caller on Portable Device call to PAPD Officer Brady

3. Male Caller on Radio Channel W to Police I (it appears to be the same caller as above but recorded on a different channel)
a. Location-B-1 level, One World Trade Center
b. “(inaudible) B-1, level , One World Trade Center. It’s (inaudible),we had a minor explosion or a major explosion, something happened down here.”
Brief Summary: Another call and no mention of a fireball or secondary fire or burning fuel.

4. Male Caller Recorded on Radio Channel X-Security

5. PAPD Officer 33 responding to a Cave in at B-4
a. Location: Traveling to sub-level B-4, WTC North Tower
b. “Myself and (inaudible) to the Trade Center responding with scott packs to the B-4 Level. There’s a report of a cave-in and people trapped.”
c. PAPD Desk-“Roger, three three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave in.
d. Officer 33- “There’s also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza…there’s a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.
e. PAPD Desk reports to other responders-“Three-three is reporting that
there is a cave in, B-4 level, at the World Trade Center, copy? A possibility of people trapped."
Brief Summary: Again not only is a fire not reported, not only that no fireball is described. Officer 33 is responding to the damage that occurred after the explosive device was detonated. This account is perhaps highlights largest amount of structural damage in the sub-levels recorded by the police. What is described is actually two cave-ins, one at B-4 level and one at the PATH plaza platform. You should be asking yourself, how NIST concluded an unreported fireball caused a cave in at B-4 and the PATH subway plaza platform.

6. Male caller to 310B Fire Command Radio Channel X-Security

d. Male-“See if you can make an announcement with PAPD with regards to people panicking in the PATH trains! Female-“That’s people by the PATH train, copy.”
Brief Summary: The device that caused the explosion apparently caused the cave in/partial collapse at B-4 basement level and the PATH Plaza platform, even to the point of causing people to panic and get off the train, resulting in the phone calls from PAPD 33 and a call to 310B Fire command. This call like the others mentions no fireball and no secondary fires, only a cave in.

7. Marvin Bush, Brother of George W. Bush
a. Location: subway on the way to a meeting
b. Subway train comes to a stop, no idea what happened.
c. They were evacuated, single-file, onto a platform, and then out of the subway. No mention of where they were evacuated.
d. Marvin said there were smoke and debris everywhere and was told to get out of there.
Brief Summary: Subway comes to a halt and is evacuated. It is unclear if the smoke and debris is in the subway or outside the subway. I'm lead to believe it was in the subway. The smoke he refers to if from the North Tower impact zone would not be everywhere but 100 plus stories high. The debris could have come from the impact but we are not told where Marvin exited the subway. However, the above PA transcript does report a cave-in which would be consistent with debris in the subway. I included this information as it supports the calls about the PATH trains that were disrupted as a result of the detonation of the explosive device or devices. It is highly unlikely that Marvin exited on the PATH Plaza Platform that suffered the cave-in.
Source: Reflections: Life After The White House, by Barbara Bush

 

[waspy]

Many of those reports mention fireballs in the elevators. A lot of the damage reported is relatively minor (ceiling tiles, plaster/gypsum partitions, lots of dust, concrete) which can be explained by falling elevators. Any major damage such as collapsed carparks or crushed subway tunnels, I put those down to incorrect or exaggerated reports.

I know you won't believe that, but at least I have a theory.

Very simple question that needs to be answered before we move on:
What is your theory? Why plant explosives in the basement?

 

[waspy]

On another note, the evidence for a global conspiracy to control the worlds railways is mounting.

http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/





You see how ridiculous your arguments about explosions are? Trains look like just as likely culprits using your logic.

 

[waspy]

Today's fun fact:

There was approximately 40 million cubic feet of air in each tower. Using a typical value of 70% air by volume and 30% structural elements and contents, we get 208*208*1362*0.7= 41.2 million cubic feet.

An average human will breathe around 400 cubic feet of air a day (highly variable but we'll use an average figure). Using life expectancy of 80 years, that gives us: 400*365*80 = 11.7 million cubic feet.

So if the WTC towers were initially a vacuum, we'd need 3 or 4 people breathing air into them for every moment of their entire lives.

I think it gives people an idea of how much air had to be expelled when the towers came down. Many windows were closed, so the path of least resistance for the air was to find an open window, or in some cases break windows when the force was great enough. So there would almost certainly be air blasting out of the towers at various points during the collapse. Hang on a sec.....I think I've seen videos of this air before!




*I found the 70/30 fact in this paper:

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC STUDY 8-06 w clarif as of 9-8-06 .pdf

It's by experts in the demolition field. Should be relevant, right?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Can we stop claiming references to explosions actually mean explosives were used?

The IRS building being hit by a single engine Cherokee Piper in Texas for instance:

“There was a loud boom, and our windows, our entire building shook,” said Darla LaTour, an operations manager at the Candlewood Suites Extended Stay Hotel, which is about a quarter-mile from the accident site. “When we got out there already were sirens coming.”

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont...s_plane_was_in.html?cxntfid=blogs_the_blotter

A loud boom that sounds like an explosion is to be expected. It even shook their building and it blew out windows of neighbouring buildings. An impact like that does generate a shockwave.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

1.Mike Pecoraro, Stationary Engineer and unnamed Co-Worker
a)Location: Sub-level C
f) Damage after the sound of an explosion: When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone. "There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press gone!"
g) Location of damage-C-level
h) The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone.
i) "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.
j) Parking garage and walls are gone.
k) As they ascended to the B Level they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds,wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor.
l)Comments, "They got us again referring to the WTC 93 bombing. He saw similar things after that bombing.
m) He was convinced a bomb had went off in the building.
n) Observes two victims, badly burned an injured.

Nice summarising job they did there.

Mike Pecoraro also said:

"When I walked out into the lobby, it was incredible," he recalled. "The whole lobby was soot and black, elevator doors were missing. The marble was missing off some of the walls. 20-foot section of marble, 20 by 10 foot sections of marble, gone from the walls". The west windows were all gone. They were missing. These are tremendous windows. They were just gone. Broken glass everywhere, the revolving doors were all broken and their glass was gone. Every sprinkler head was going off. I am thinking to myself, how are these sprinkler heads going off? It takes a lot of heat to set off a sprinkler head. It never dawned on me that there was a giant fireball that came through the air of the lobby. I never knew that until later on. The jet fuel actually came down the elevator shaft, blew off all the (elevator) doors and flames rolled through the lobby. That explained all the burnt people and why everything was sooted in the lobby."

I wonder why they pick and choose which quotes to use?

The full story inc Pecoraro and other wtc7 workers is here:
http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Can we also decide which set of facts are being used to prove this conspiracy?

2. Jose Sanchez, Maintenance Worker & co-worker, Chino
a)Location: Sub level 4 workshop.

d) Fireball in the freight elevator.
e) Singes hair and drops co-worker Chino to his knees.

3. Phillip Morelli, construction worker, 7 year employee at WTC 1
a) Location-4th sub level, B-4 main freight car

l) Reports no fireball as the official story proposes.

Brief Summary: An explosion throws Phillip to the ground and causes the floor to move underneath him. The explosion destroys walls and a freight elevator that he was near. He runs to the bathroom and another explosion causes damage to the ceiling and lights and injured people are seen in parking garage. All of this damage people and the structure but not a single mention of the raging fireball that NIST states caused all of this damage. Phillip attempts to escape by going to Tower 2 exit and gets thrown to the ground for a second time!

So witness 2 reports a fireball and witness 3 doesn't actually say there wasn't a fireball but didn't say there was either so there must not have been.

These witnesses either need to get their story straight or the selective quoting of CT sites has been messed up.

 

[TheBloods]

On another note, the evidence for a global conspiracy to control the worlds railways is mounting.

http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/





You see how ridiculous your arguments about explosions are? Trains look like just as likely culprits using your logic.

That's very good.

 

[Blight von Torp]

Many of those reports mention fireballs in the elevators. A lot of the damage reported is relatively minor (ceiling tiles, plaster/gypsum partitions, lots of dust, concrete) which can be explained by falling elevators. Any major damage such as collapsed carparks or crushed subway tunnels, I put those down to incorrect or exaggerated reports.

For a start there's only one elevator - Car 6 - that could potentially have free fallen, assuming it's emergency brakes didn't work (unlike Car 50's which did). See below.

Here, NIST states explicitly that elevator Car 6, along with Car 50, were the sole elevators of WTC1 with access to the basements from the impacted floors of WTC1. And as noted in the previous excerpt from NCSTAR 1-7, Car 6 only reached sub level B1, the uppermost basement level, while explosions and other destructive events were observed on B1 as well as below B1, on B2 and possibly lower (see the above testimonies of Rodriguez and Pecoraro).

Conclusions:
All of the above information should bring us to the logical conclusion that a fuel-air explosion did not travel hundreds of feet down the main freight elevator shaft of WTC1, from the impacted floors to the basements, to cause structural damage to the basement floors and lobby. Car 50 was the only elevator with access from the impacted floors of WTC1 to the sub levels B6 and below, and its operator survived, having experienced no explosions or fireballs down the main freight shaft.
That such a fireball could have traveled down Car 6 has not specifically been ruled out by the above information, but it could not have extended beyond sub level B1, whereas explosive events caused much destruction on lower floors.

I know you won't believe that, but at least I have a theory.

Very simple question that needs to be answered before we move on:
What is your theory? Why plant explosives in the basement?

This is a perfect example of how completely unscientific your thinking is. You start with your theory first, and then disregard any facts that prove it to be wrong.

Here's a little tip - start with the observable facts, and then come up with a theory that best fits.

So when Mike Pecoraro says the machine room was gone, reduced to rubble, that the parking garage and walls are gone, that a 50 ton hydraulic press was gone, that a concrete fire door was wrinkled up ...

... it's probably time to look for something other than falling elevators and miracle fireballs from an impact more than 300 metres above.

 

[TheBloods]

If there was a huge conspiracy and as a result 343 members of the FDNY were murdered, and firemen witnessed evidence that it was an inside job, surely the FDNY, or members of it, would have a huge movement to find the truth to find out who murdered their colleagues? But there isn't one.

The official and unofficial FDNY websites talk about honouring those men murdered, but no mention of a conspiracy.

The deputy fire chief discusses the causes of the collapse. No talk of demolitions.
http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html

You'd think these guys know what they're talking about...

 

[TheBloods]

This is an interesting site too.
http://layscience.net/node/124

"Top Ten Photos 9/11 Conspiracy Nuts Hate"

 

[TheBloods]

I like this one too:
http://911guide.googlepages.com/conspiracythinking

The 5 Steps of Conspiracy Thinking

Step 1 – Evaluation of a claim, plausible or not plausible

Step 2 – Looking for more evidence - Critical point!

Step 3 – Believing in a conspiracy

Step 4 – Promoting the conspiracy theory

Step 5 – Conspiracy theories affecting daily life

Putting the reputations and careers on the line, maybe losing jobs or relationships. Almost no way of turning back. Everything is invested in the conspiracy. Denial of all opposing viewpoints.

Many of the current leading figures of the truth movement are currently at this stage.

Warning Signs

There are many warning signs indicating that your critical thinking may be in danger. Consider the following. If any of these signs are found, one has to seriously reconsider their position.

- The experts on your side seem to be plain wrong on many details, but you still support other parts of their research, because these parts of their work support your views.
- Thinking you are now able to see through the entire plot, wondering why almost nobody else can.
- Being overly enthusiastic about the subject.
- Refusing to critically go through what the other side is presenting.
- Ignoring and forgetting unpleasant evidence.
- Thinking the perpetrators leave clues and you can solve it all in the internet.
- Thinking you have all the facts and need no further research, thinking your mind is set.
- Thinking every participant would be silent, every media controlled.
- After being thoroughly debunked in one detail, moving on to the next detail without re-considering your position.
- Not believing in the original detail that made you believe in a conspiracy, but having found other reasons along the way, that still make you believe in a conspiracy.
- Not being able to understand the details your belief is based on (example: Claiming thermite, but not knowing how it works).
- Having very strong disregard for any opposition.
- Thinking the governments are evil. Not trusting anything that contradicts your belief, because everything is somehow related to or controlled by the government.
- Believing in events that are very unorthodox or unique only to a conspiracy theory. (examples: Weakening the structure with explosives for an hour before a controlled demolition, Thermite being used to bring down buildings)
- Avoiding answering questions.
- Basing your beliefs on the events following the attacks (examples: They lied about the WMD’s so they must be lying about everything, They did it to justify two wars).

Things to Consider

Here are a couple of points for conspiracy believers to consider.

If the attacks were so incredibly complicated and successful, why did they make the following incredible mistakes:

- They did not frame the citizens of the invaded countries.
- They did not plant WMD's where nobody was watching, but were supposedly able to carry out incredible events with everybody watching.

If you find youself getting around or ignoring these important questions without re-considering your position, that is a warning sign of self-deception.

"Nowadays looking back, the feeling is mostly embarrassment, especially as the whole business flared and died in a matter of a couple of months and I should really have had the wit to notice that I was getting much too excited, too quickly, about the whole 9/11 "truth" business. That's never a healthy sign. But it highlights very strongly (again) for me that the power of self-deception is very strong in the human race."

Another thing to consider, why does it seem that nobody listens? Why is there no greater global opposition towards the explanations of the events? Could it be that you could be wrong, after all?

Closing Words

You have to be very careful with material that sounds exiting, but you have no previous experience with. Because once you take the first wrong step, it is very easy to convince yourself with further evidence supporting the wrong conclusion, while all the time twisting all the evidence that doesn't.

 

[waspy]

For a start there's only one elevator - Car 6 - that could potentially have free fallen, assuming it's emergency brakes didn't work (unlike Car 50's which did). See below.





This is a perfect example of how completely unscientific your thinking is. You start with your theory first, and then disregard any facts that prove it to be wrong.

Here's a little tip - start with the observable facts, and then come up with a theory that best fits.

So when Mike Pecoraro says the machine room was gone, reduced to rubble, that the parking garage and walls are gone, that a 50 ton hydraulic press was gone, that a concrete fire door was wrinkled up ...

... it's probably time to look for something other than falling elevators and miracle fireballs from an impact more than 300 metres above.

Ummm....even you provided quotes that mention fireballs.

The 50 tonne hydraulic press weighed about 200kg, the hydraulic capacity was 50 tonnes. Not a very big piece of machinery. I dispute that the parking garage was "gone".

I've stated my theory. All the evidence fits, or can be explained by exaggerated or misquoted witness reports.

I didn't start with a theory. Here's my train of thought: There is damage in the basement levels. There are reports of sounds of explosions and damage to walls, ceilings and furniture etc. What could have caused this damage? Planted explosions? Possibly. Would this fit with other evidence? No, there were no explosions measured on seismic readings. There were no traces of conventional explosive materials in the rubble. There are demolition experts stating that explosions in the basement would be useless in terms of bringing a building down. So, I moved to other possibilities. Why would these explosions occur on the basement and lobby levels? Maybe because the elevator shafts finish at those levels? Were there elevator shafts in the impact zone? Yes, several in fact that reached down to the basement levels. Where were many of these explosions heard? Just near elevator shafts. Would this be consistent with a heavily fueled 767 hitting the building and cutting elevator cables? Yes. Would some elevators be expected to fall down the the lower levels? Yes.

I repeat my question:

Very simple question that needs to be answered before we move on:
What is your theory? Why plant explosives in the basement?

 

[FIGJAM]

Any consensuses yet??

Should be 'consensi' if you ask me.

 

[Richo83]

This thread proves two things: a) people will believe anything and b) people will argue over anything. I mean this has gone beyond the pale. Kudos to figgy and bloods for keeping up a fight I could never manage.

 

[Corpuscles]

.

There were no traces of conventional explosive materials in the rubble.

There are demolition experts stating that explosions in the basement would be useless in terms of bringing a building down.


Very simple question that needs to be answered before we move on:
What is your theory? Why plant explosives in the basement?

1. WRONG!... Sulphates

2.... PROOF???????????????? PLS!?

Watch the previously recommended viewing!

PS. Hi BVT... you are doing a good job.... these BF x spurts, will catch on eventually

 

[waspy]

1. WRONG!... Sulphates

2.... PROOF???????????????? PLS!?

Watch the previously recommended viewing!

PS. Hi BVT... you are doing a good job.... these BF x spurts, will catch on eventually

1. Regardless of how the buildings came down, there would have been sulphates in the rubble. It's a very common material in buildings such as the WTC. One source was the calcium sulphate wallboards (ie gypsum). These are 19% sulphur, and there was a lot of gypsum in the towers. Thermate reactions actually produce pitifully small amounts of sulphur so it would be impossible to make the conclusion that sulphur=thermate.

2. I have watched "911 Mysteries". I do not recall anything even remotely convincing regarding the basement explosions. Maybe you could enlighten me.

These guys have their say on all things demolition related:
http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC STUDY 8-06 w clarif as of 9-8-06 .pdf (I've posted this one previously so nothing new for those who have been paying attention)

I guess they were probably paid by the Government though......

 

[FIGJAM]

This thread proves two things: a) people will believe anything and b) people will argue over anything. I mean this has gone beyond the pale. Kudos to figgy and bloods for keeping up a fight I could never manage.

I gave up on this topic a long time ago.

I've also given up on religious debate (of which you think I fall into the "a" category ).

 

[Blight von Torp]

1. WRONG!... Sulphates

2.... PROOF???????????????? PLS!?

Watch the previously recommended viewing!

PS. Hi BVT... you are doing a good job.... these BF x spurts, will catch on eventually

What I find the strangest, is that these jokers can look at videos of WTC 7 collapsing and not think WTF.

Some also know that the building fell at free fall acceleration, but this fact seems to go in one ear and out the other without disturbing a single brain cell.

Amazing stuff! One of them is apparently studying civil engineering too.

 

[Blight von Torp]

The 50 tonne hydraulic press weighed about 200kg, the hydraulic capacity was 50 tonnes. Not a very big piece of machinery.

Here's a picture of a 30 tonne press. That's a pretty big piece of machinery to be "gone".

I dispute that the parking garage was "gone".

You seem to dispute a number of things. What about the walls being gone, all the rubble, the subway level cave-in from Port Authority officers, walls hitting people in the face, the floor moving below, etc.

I've stated my theory. All the evidence fits, or can be explained by exaggerated or misquoted witness reports.

All exaggerations you say ... what is "machine room reduced to rubble" an exaggeration of. Perhaps a co-worker was clumsy and tipped a chair over? Or a ceiling tile fell off and cracked on the floor. That would create some rubble.

I repeat my question:

Very simple question that needs to be answered before we move on:
What is your theory? Why plant explosives in the basement?

The only thing I need to do to "win" this particular aspect of the debate, is to point out how ridiculous is the official jet fuel / crashing elevator joke cover story that you've swallowed. I don't need to speculate / make something up on who, how and why.

You'd be more credible if you conceded the stupidity of this part of the official story, and instead argued that Al Quaeda must have had a truck bomb down in there as well.

How does someone blithely dismiss reports of a cave-in when it's from PA officers taken direct from their transcript?