A critical assessment - where are we going wrong?

[Visions]

Lairises (right spelling?) too much, misses targets, no penetration in his kicking, pushed off the contest far too easily.

While I agree that he is not a hard nosed player, and doesn't like the contested footy, I have to disagree with you on the other points. The goal from 50 shows he does have penetration in his kicking, only he looks for short targets instead of bombing away aimlessly (as so many others do who turn it over with their bombs inside 50). From what I see, he hits targets more often than not, at least can't remember any real clangers from tonights game.

It's players like Goldsack that shit me. Fumble because they have spent the ball before they have got it (by looking away), and then either miss their target or make them work hard for it (by kicking too high, handballing behind a running player). That irks me.

The players need to get over their "holier than thou" mode, and start playing with intensity.

 

[Denny Crane]

I agree that its not all doom and gloom for you guys, early days and some pretty key injuries did take their toll. If I was a Magpie my greatest concern (and there has been a few comments in this thread) is Swann. He looked so disinterested last night, fumbled and gave up chasing once or twice. A genuine GUN, he definitely has other things on his mind.

 

[Williamc99]

I was quite disappointed with our efforts tonight. Still, I look at it this way: It's still early days. It's only Round 3 and the playing group have had to adjust to a plthero of changes for the past few months. I never thought they were immediately going to adapt. Carlton is on the rise, as they have been for the past few years and Collingwood are adjusting to a new coach and a slightly different gameplan.

For the people that blame the Coach, well, there's only so much the Coach can do. It's up to the players to perform. The Coach can only give them the instructions and gameplan. If they don't fulfill that then how is that the Coaches fault?

I think a few of the players need to go to the VFL and rack up some good performances before going back to the 22 and hopefully playing some good games. It also doesn't help that we are injury riddled. Losing Reid will hurt us but also give some other players a chance. A chance to test our depth perhaps? Losing Ball was tough as he plays his heart out week in week out. On the plus side, we have some players coming back in. All is not lost.

 

[Pera]

Swans early season comments regarding wanting to retire at 30 are beginning to ring some alarm bells. The half arsed manner in which he is playing makes you wonder if his head is really in it.

Well said.

He's playing like a cocky Brownlow medalist. Will run forward and stay out of packs, racking up high disposal numbers but having no influence on the match. Definitely putting himself over the rest of the team.

 

[Ant85]

People blaming Buckley and saying how the side never played that way under MM have a look at the 02/03 side then look what happened in 04/05, although more dominant in 10/11 it is almost mimicking those years with '12 starting like 04.

02 we should of won the flag in 03 we dominated the H'n'A in 04 we were crippled by injuries early and the losses started piling up 05 was a write off. MM was there then and he wouldn't make sweet fa of a difference to our current position.

Mick never built sides to become more then flag pinchers, which even if we finish last in '12 (almost impossible) it will be exciting to see a different approach to building a premiership list.

The 'Press' is very much looking like the 'Box' in terms of a game plan making a team better then the individuals in it, we have a lot of role players mixed in with some top liners as opposed to Geelong who have class on every line same with the 01-04 lions team. 2010 pies is looking like an 08 Hawks.

I couldn't disagree more.

In 2002, we weren't the best side, we were courageous.

In 2003, we weren't the best side, we were competitive.

In 2010/2011, we were the best side, with a shit load of talent, depth, and game plan to match.

We've lost the depth, the coaching panel (not just one coach), but we still retain the talent.

The gap between demoralising sides 8 months ago, even when we were full of injuries, to being demoralised now is just too wide for your explanation to make sense.

It runs deeper.

We are not Hawks of 2008, because we maintained our dominant form into the following season.

You're justifying our downward spiral as if it's a natural course.

A lot of our best players are still in their prime, we're nowhere near bottoming out.

Our window is very much wide open. We thought changing coaches would prolong our success, refreshen our game plan, and reinvigorate our players.

That doesn't seem to be happening at the moment.

 

[lgarth80]

Very reminiscent of 2009 loss to Carlton.
On that day Judd tore us a new one smashing Pendles.
Everyone in the media hailed the arrival of Carlton as a force.
Most called for Mick to be sacked.
Eddie got the kirribilli agreement happening because it looked the only way Mick could stay. Lots called for change.

Geoff Walsh called for stability and change. Mick as our next premiership coach. But a succession plan needed in case the mission needed another reboot.

Really the Pies early in 2009 were unlucky. Close losses and then that big Carlton defeat that had most of us thinking season over.

Thing is we got our team together and were very competitive until the final match.

We had then our two best years in history from a h&a perspective.

Sure we are in a ditch now and Buckley needs to learn on the job. Hopefully it will make him a better coach and man as a result.

The fact of the result is clear. Carlton, Hawthorn and Geelong have passed us and probably West Coast too. It doesn't mean we can't fight back. The hunted is now the hunter.

Depth is handy. From our 2010 heroes plus Krak, Taz we had missing or hampered:
Davis, L Brown, N Brown, Macaffer, Didak, Johnson
Reid, Ball injured
Wellingham, Maxwell, Beams, Wood maybe even Thomas underdone

This means players have to either play roles they are not accustomed or have to work overtime to fill the gaps.

Someone said Pendlebury looked tired. Too right he did, but he has carried a big load recently.

Add players learning roles and some not quite match fit and you get a group not gelling and low on confidence.

It would have been hard to win this week at our best but with so many first choice players away from their full fitness, coming off a six day break against a team off 8 (huge advantage Carlton), then rotations suffered after quarter time with two very key structural players (Reid rebound and Ball contested and tackle king) this exacerbated the fitness issues.

Sure Maxwell is right to say our first quarter wasn't up to scratch but to think that the game was on an even keel until just before half time suggests to me that we were physically put to the sword more than mentally.

Hence when the fitness returns so will the output and results will come.

The query I have is if we can improve to where we were early last year in terms of fit, confident players. If so, we can bridge the gap to the top teams because we are now at the very moment not there. Delusional if we think otherwise.

Things are never as bad or as good as they seem.
A quote from a Pie Premiership coach who is mentoring Buckley. I think we are in good hands.

We may have lost an important battle tonight but the war is not over. All the top teams are trading blows and occasionally each will come off second best. Could be a year of fluctuating fortunes.

Keep the faith. Remember it is us against them.

 

[wmvaux]

I doubt we would be any better if Malthouse was still coaching.... the season is early and those who want to over react after 3 rounds of football, go and follow another game.

Last year we went into the season flying with a full list, solid pre-season....etc
This year we have a number of injuries, haven't got close to fielding our best team and are playing kids when we don't have the depth at the moment.

We gave Hawthorn a run for their money, broke away from Richmond when we needed to and were beaten all over the ground by Carlton and only lost by 60 points when our main midfielders got smashed and didn't get the clearences needed to win a footy match.

The season is a marathon, so lets see how we are travelling at the halfway mark and not after a poor performance..... this current side is not the side that got us to the Grand Final, lets not make the mistake and think it is.

 

[TradeDraft]

I think something is wrong at the Club/Playing Group and I don't know what it is?

 

[millsy29gopies]

I wouldn't call myself an analyser, just a mad fan but we're obviously using the wings and sides again. Didn't see is go through the corridor once last night.

We're also not getting to the contests. This influences the positioning was was crap also tonight.

We just looked really slow out there tonight. And when it was clear that pace could be put on, the players slacked off.

 

[wmvaux]

I think something is wrong at the Club/Playing Group and I don't know what it is?

So lets just make rumours then

Maybe it's the fact we have a number of players out and we aren't playing our best yet.

The last thing we need is arm chair experts telling us what's wrong.

 

[Radical Roo]

10 goal loss is hardly red alert time. But the potential loss of Ball will be.............

 

[Stamos]

Injuries don't help, but you've lost a lot of depth since the 2010 flag, and in particular have not been able to replace the structurally important Leigh Brown and Leon Davis.

The key to your success over the last 2 years was the structure of the Press, which has become less relevant in 2012, but also hasn't been implemented as well, with more inexperienced players covering your injuries.

The other big issue is in the ruck. Jolly was a great pick up, but is on the slide, and isn't getting the chop out from Brown any longer.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Losing Reid and Ball hurt, but we were behind the 8 ball when that happened. We needed to start well because Carlton was coming off an 8 day break, while we were off a 6 day break. We did not start well. Bucks backed our midfield in and we were absolutely smashed in there. Carltons mids showed that they were hungrier for the contest, more willing to run both ways, and handled the pressure better than our guys.
To me, our backs and forwards shouldn't feel too bad. When the opposition has 20 more inside 50s, smashed us 151-123 on contested possies, smashed us 50-32 in clearances there is very little that can be done. Not only did they beat us in these key categories, but they also beat us in tackles, 54-48 despite outnumbering us by 79 total possies.
That is a mauling, a midfield mauling and the players that should be ashamed are our midfielders.
I thought Wellingham tried hard and will be better for the run, Sidebottom and Beams contributed ok, but the rest should hang their heads and taking a good hard look at themselves. The intensity in there was horrible, the accountability horrible, the tackling horrible, the structures were horrible too.
As much as we want to defend him, Pendles deserves a huge whack. It's ok to get beaten, but to let your man have 10 clearances when you have none is sheer arrogance.

I am looking forward to see how these guys respond.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

Not to sure but it looks as though too many things are trying to be changed at once. Was concerned watching the Club when Matty Lappin said that Bucks was more hands on with everything, as Mick was more inclined to delegate. Just hope that Bucks isn't to full on and trying to control everything that happens within his coaching staff. Not sure what the game plan is, because last night it looked just a mess, eventhough we did have injuries to be fair.
l am not sure how much needed to be changed, but l get the feeling Bucks is really trying to put his own stamp on this team and it's not really coming off. I think about Geelong and how they transitioned to a new coach with ease, and they really didn't change their game plan or style and won a premiership.

 

[Jie_Hodge]

Posted this in the prematch discussion but that looks more like a vent thread so it might be a bit more appropriate here sorry to those who ahve read it twice.

A few points i took an interest in from last nights game and previous


Like otheres have said our players just seemed to be guarding space defensively but not doing it very well, we were flat footed a carlton player would run past ours and the players wouldnt even go with them and they would get a easy 25 pass, its all well and good to clog up space the place the ball is most likely going not three or four players like i saw last night and let opposition run past for an easy uncontested mark.. Is this being undermanned and not fit enough to go with the blues so just taking easy option of guarding space or do you think its a clear instruction?


Clearances our players again got caught ball watching and flat footed being sucked in to the contest and leaving free carlton runners outside and on the move, also in the off chance we did look like possibly winning the ball to many of ours would take of foward of the ball..hate to say it but at times it looks a bit like our players were getting ahead of themself waiting to get a easy kick.


I think these area need to be addressed Harvey needs to work on some areas around the midfield also get them running like he used to both ways

Not hitting the panic button yet as i think we are about a month behind the top sides in preperation maybe longer now with a couple of fresh injuries but hopefully the past couple of weeks is a wakeup call that we need to bring a high intensity and efort each week to match sides now and im not just talking the top sides.

 

[magpiemaniac]

I think we really need to develop a solid run with player. Every week an opposition mid cuts us up. Id like to see Rounds given that role i remember when he shut down Brent Harvey last year. We very rarely tag but if you look at all the good sides they all have one. Now that we are not so dominate i think it has to happen. Thoughts??

 

[SnakePlisskin]

Gameplan , we were a great stoppage team , now we look like Essendon under knights .

 

[Dan Moody]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

too many problems to run through and analyse but for me, the appointment of Harvey as an assistant has baffled me.
he failed at Carlton, failed at St.Kilda in the same roles and now our backline looks the worst I've ever seen it.
the guy was a champion footballer but look at the relevant fortunes of the clubs he's left since. Carlton now better than ever, St.Kilda - well time will tell this year.

 

[esc0bar]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

too many problems to run through and analyse but for me, the appointment of Harvey as an assistant has baffled me.
he failed at Carlton, failed at St.Kilda in the same roles and now our backline looks the worst I've ever seen it.
the guy was a champion footballer but look at the relevant fortunes of the clubs he's left since. Carlton now better than ever, St.Kilda - well time will tell this year.

Umm wasn't St Kildas strength their ability not to concede goals? I mean it did get them to 2 premierships? Hardly a failure...

 

[Dan Moody]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

Umm wasn't St Kildas strength their ability not to concede goals? I mean it did get them to 2 premierships? Hardly a failure...

robert harvey's coaching career at carlton 2009-2010 = 7th and 8th
at st.kilda 2011 = 6th

he lasted 1 year at st.kilda and cracked the shits because he wasn't given the senior gig and because his referees weren't overly enthusiastic in his capabilities in the top job.
champion player, dont get me wrong, but team success does not follow harvey's coaching career.
the fact he is our defensive coach shows that our biggest weakness at the moment is our defence, it looks like a shell of it's previous existence

 

[Dan Moody]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

Umm wasn't St Kildas strength their ability not to concede goals? I mean it did get them to 2 premierships? Hardly a failure...

2 grand finals, but i know what you mean.

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

The coaching and fitness staff have some serious work to do.

Holes at the end of 2011 that are still not filled with a comparable player
Leigh Brown and Leon Davis

Not fit or injured before Round 1
Krak, Taz, N Brown, Macaffer, Didak, Johnson, Beams, Maxwell

Now Injured Since Round 1
Reid, Ball

 

[Angelus512]

Serious?

Everything else I agree with.

I agree. Keefe was actually highly admirable given the absolute flogging we were getting. Sure I saw him panic a few times he's green. But what surprised me most was even when he panicked he still hit up a target on a long pass.

 

[Beary17]

Buckley wouldn't have changed much in the centre bounces and we couldn't buy a centre clearance all game. When you are that unmercifully smashed out of the middle, you simply can't win games of football. Our decimated backline is just a postscript.

In the centre we may have to revert to our pre Jolly tactic of conceding the tap and roving to the opposition ruckman. Jolly just doesn't have it anymore.

 

[neroblack]

I think we really need to develop a solid run with player. Every week an opposition mid cuts us up. Id like to see Rounds given that role i remember when he shut down Brent Harvey last year. We very rarely tag but if you look at all the good sides they all have one. Now that we are not so dominate i think it has to happen. Thoughts??

This is a pretty good observation. Ben Johnson is meant to fill that role but I can't think of any others. We have very good attacking midfielders but not much going the other way..