A critical assessment - where are we going wrong?

[TheGreatGrundy]

Swans early season comments regarding wanting to retire at 30 are beginning to ring some alarm bells. The half arsed manner in which he is playing makes you wonder if his head is really in it.

The Age named him as our best player but he looked ordinary last night. He had 31 possessions but he seemed to have little influence on the game. He is too much of a smart arse for his own good.

 

[loki04]

I couldn't disagree more.

In 2002, we weren't the best side, we were courageous.

In 2003, we weren't the best side, we were competitive.

In 2010/2011, we were the best side, with a shit load of talent, depth, and game plan to match.

We've lost the depth, the coaching panel (not just one coach), but we still retain the talent.

The gap between demoralising sides 8 months ago, even when we were full of injuries, to being demoralised now is just too wide for your explanation to make sense.

It runs deeper.

We are not Hawks of 2008, because we maintained our dominant form into the following season.

You're justifying our downward spiral as if it's a natural course.

A lot of our best players are still in their prime, we're nowhere near bottoming out.

Our window is very much wide open. We thought changing coaches would prolong our success, refreshen our game plan, and reinvigorate our players.

That doesn't seem to be happening at the moment.

In 02 we played off in the GF and should of won the game, true not the best side but we were robbed in that game and could of very easily been the 02 premiers if not for some dodgy free's.

In 03 we dominated the comp along with Port in the HnA to go on to lose the GF much like '11 we looked sure bets come finals, obviously the '11 side was more dominant but it still wasn't the best side that year, Geelong were.

04 we changed a few assistant coaches and started the year injury riddled and poor results followed.

Obviously the years are slightly different cases but also they have a lot of similarities and we are trending down.


Btw we were a relatively young side in 02/03/04 too, Malthouse recruited for his game plan and his game plan was never designed to be dominant over a long period (in terms of dynasty).

Even with the WC state side of the 90s his game plan only managed 2 flags with a dip in 93.

 

[well left]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

robert harvey's coaching career at carlton 2009-2010 = 7th and 8th
at st.kilda 2011 = 6th

he lasted 1 year at st.kilda and cracked the shits because he wasn't given the senior gig and because his referees weren't overly enthusiastic in his capabilities in the top job.
champion player, dont get me wrong, but team success does not follow harvey's coaching career.
the fact he is our defensive coach shows that our biggest weakness at the moment is our defence, it looks like a shell of it's previous existence

I'm pretty sure Harvey is midfield coach - Ben Hart is defensive coach isn't he?

Those looking to blame coach or coaches should also remember we got picked apart a similar way in Round 24 last year by Geelong.

The worries for me:

We're getting our pants pulled down at stoppages and then teams just spread and run us off our legs.

Opposition forwards seem to get goalside with heaps of space way too often.

Swan, Thomas & O'Brien are way down in intensity and output. Thomas played 10 really good min against Richmond so I know all his talent was not in his hair but he just lacks his usual zip. Harry was dismantled again last night and he either needs to concentrate solely on shutting down his opponent or we need to find another shut down defender quickly.

Pace, or lack of it, looks to be a real issue.

Injuries are obviously an issue as they are all to critical components of our team.

Dawes. I will leave it at that.

VFL game today will be interesting today - chance for some such as Young, Rounds, Seedsman, Ceglar and Yagmoor to press claims. Johnson should be right to go next week but Brown and Didak need more time. Depth is certainly an issue when those 5 are those that can be considered.

One last point - I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I thought Sinclair was one of those players that needs 30 games to get his composure and confidence up but that I was not sure if he would get that opportunity. I don't think we can carry him for that long at this point in time. we can't afford to give him that opportunity unless he can go back and dominate VFL.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Keefe got 16 possessions, 10 marks and gave away one free kick. Without him the score difference would have been much greater. I cannot believe the number of people still prepared to criticise him.

 

[Beary17]

Keefe got 16 possessions, 10 marks and gave away one free kick. Without him the score difference would have been much greater. I cannot believe the number of people still prepared to criticise him.

Keefe was good last night and I thought he looked quite comfortable out there.

 

[lozza63]

Since that embarassing PF loss to eventual Premiers in 2009 we forged a strong team ethic, been very blessed with development of our younger players and employed a brand of footy which was hard fast and intimidating.
2010 was a bonus year for us and many clubs looked at our style of play as the benchmark.

2011 we seemed to beat sides before the ball was even bounced - we had an aura of invincibility that all sides bar one succumbed to. In 42 of 51 games over 2 years we delivered.

What do we have now?
We have definitely seen the dilution of our experience and depth.
We have seen that 3 or 4 clubs appear more advanced than we are.
We have not enjoyed the same rate of development in our kids as in 2010 predominantly.
We have encountered a worrying spate of injuries - apparently still on the rise. We seem to have several senior structural players with dubious durability at this time - not good.
We may have 3 or 4 senior players on the decline - that is yet to be confirmed, yet the early signs are there atm.
We have demonstrated to our competiton a definite drop off across the playing group - that we are well and truly beatable.
We cannot consider ourselves a walk up start at 16 of 22 contests at this time.
We are bemoaning the loss of Neon and Leroy - this in itself shows that we currently have holes in our structure and depth - looking ahead 'cause unless a few kids step up we will find ourselves going further into decline. The likes of Jolly, Dids, Johnno and Tazza will not be around too much longer and the next generation need introduction now.

A healthy list would be great - can there be a silver lining though with the fast tracking of a real starting 22 gun or two - we'll see. All i know now is that i'm not going into the next week with that warm glow of an almost certain win week in week out - the opposition know this now so every week will be a struggle - big challenges ahead for this group -

Go Pies.

 

[carnthepies19]

Can't be bothered reading through the thread to see if my points have been said, so sorry if I'm repeating stuff.

- We weren't manning up. Simple as that. I know we were one down for virtually 3 quarters, with Reid and Ball injuries, but to see the ease of which the likes of Murphy, Judd, Carazzo and co got clearances was just horrible.

- Thomas. Well... I think his hair needs to come back. He's done nothing, may I repeat, nothing, over the first 3 rounds.

- I know this isn't our best 22, we've got Johnno, Taz, Reid, Ball, Krak to come back. As well as Dids and Caff, who IMO will be a fringe player once we are full strength.

- The boys need a good kick up the arse. Hopefully Bucks takes the lead and drops one of the poorer performing senior players. Yes. This includes Thomas, Dawes, O'Brien, Jolly. Then they should start playing for their spots, because at the moment they are playing like they are in the bloody local league team.

-Dawes needs to do something. Anything. Honestly he is playing like he's a kid amoungst men. Doesn't know what's going on, or where the ball is.

- Our depth isn't as good as the depth of the teams seriously challenging this year (Hawks, Geelong, Carlton, WCE)

 

[ipswichpies]

Keefe got 16 possessions, 10 marks and gave away one free kick. Without him the score difference would have been much greater. I cannot believe the number of people still prepared to criticise him.

Agree has been our most consistent player so far this season across all 3 games and if we are traveling bad we would be a whole lot worse without him.
If Jolly has done an adductor muscle does this mean he will be out for a couple of months,if so Wood has to ruck solo if Ceglar was a little bigger than he is now I would bring him in he at least jumps at the ball and he can take a grab but realistically he needs another pre season and year in the weights room.

 

[Zahki]

"Where are we going wrong" thats the million dollar question isn't it. The warning signs were there in the preseason, but now it's plainly clear something is amiss. Injuries hurt yes, but theres a lot more going wrong than just injuries. Players don't look anywhere near as clean with their ball use as last year, plenty of senior players who had really good years last year seem to be struggling a lot this year and most worrying of all there looks to be almost disinterest amongst the players.

Who knows what the cause is, but Bucks is up against it early, something needs to change and quick or this year will be a write off.

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

I'm pretty sure Harvey is midfield coach - Ben Hart is defensive coach isn't he?

Those looking to blame coach or coaches should also remember we got picked apart a similar way in Round 24 last year by Geelong.

I still cannot fully explain that loss, but last night was not purely a matter of
some players being off.

We have new coaching team of great players, who are yet to prove that they can coach!

 

[blaze036]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

I still cannot fully explain that loss, but last night was not purely a matter of
some players being off.

We have new coaching team of great players, who are yet to prove that they can coach!

Our best centre square grp, vs their vest centre square group. We get destroyed, NOTHING to do with coaches there.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

Our best centre square grp, vs their vest centre square group. We get destroyed, NOTHING to do with coaches there.

It has got something to do with the coach, given the numerous comments regarding the players apparent lack of motivation and their appearance of 'disinterest'. The players preparation for the game is also the coach's responsibility. So is team selection e.g. Sinclair. What portion of the blame lies with the coach we will never know, but I think you are wrong to say that the coach had nothing to do with the loss.

 

[Ant85]

Since that embarassing PF loss to eventual Premiers in 2009 we forged a strong team ethic, been very blessed with development of our younger players and employed a brand of footy which was hard fast and intimidating.
2010 was a bonus year for us and many clubs looked at our style of play as the benchmark.

2011 we seemed to beat sides before the ball was even bounced - we had an aura of invincibility that all sides bar one succumbed to. In 42 of 51 games over 2 years we delivered.

What do we have now?
We have definitely seen the dilution of our experience and depth.
We have seen that 3 or 4 clubs appear more advanced than we are.
We have not enjoyed the same rate of development in our kids as in 2010 predominantly.
We have encountered a worrying spate of injuries - apparently still on the rise. We seem to have several senior structural players with dubious durability at this time - not good.
We may have 3 or 4 senior players on the decline - that is yet to be confirmed, yet the early signs are there atm.
We have demonstrated to our competiton a definite drop off across the playing group - that we are well and truly beatable.
We cannot consider ourselves a walk up start at 16 of 22 contests at this time.
We are bemoaning the loss of Neon and Leroy - this in itself shows that we currently have holes in our structure and depth - looking ahead 'cause unless a few kids step up we will find ourselves going further into decline. The likes of Jolly, Dids, Johnno and Tazza will not be around too much longer and the next generation need introduction now.

A healthy list would be great - can there be a silver lining though with the fast tracking of a real starting 22 gun or two - we'll see. All i know now is that i'm not going into the next week with that warm glow of an almost certain win week in week out - the opposition know this now so every week will be a struggle - big challenges ahead for this group -

Go Pies.

That just about sums it up.

But then we need to ask, why haven't we found structural replacements? Why are there holes?

How has Geelong been able to keep its aging core together, while recruit youngsters that fulfill their needs and ensure they remain around the top?

Our core is still there, but we haven't had kids to come up and replace the likes of Neon or Leroy.

We've been persisting with Wood for several years as a potential replacement for Jolly, and it hasn't worked, and now Jolly's in his twilight years.

Our injuries this year will give our youngsters a chance to get some match experience, but we have to be frank, our newcomers aren't exactly addressing our needs at the moment.

List management woes?

 

[rustyg70]

Regarding our injuries.
The knee injuries to Krakouer,MacCaffer and Ball were completely out of our control.
But the rest of our injuries seem to be soft tissue related.
Im wondering if Bucks and the fitness has gone too hard with the boys over pre season regarding their workload.

Ive spoken to my Sport Science friend and he said that it is fairly common that when a new coach comes in,they push the guys harder than normal which results in these sorts of injuries.

I just wonder if Bucks is trying to get the guys to train as hard and proffesionally as he did when he was playing?

This is not a bag on Bucks either.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

It has got something to do with the coach, given the numerous comments regarding the players apparent lack of motivation and their appearance of 'disinterest'.

Comments from whom? Anybody who matters? Anybody who knows? Or is it just the vibe?

I've been watching the game a long time and its amazing how "disinterested" teams seem to look when they lose.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

How has Geelong been able to keep its aging core together, while recruit youngsters that fulfill their needs and ensure they remain around the top?

Losing Ablett freed up a lot of salary cap. Do you suggest we should trade Cloke?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Regarding our injuries.
The knee injuries to Krakouer,MacCaffer and Ball were completely out of our control.
But the rest of our injuries seem to be soft tissue related.
Im wondering if Bucks and the fitness has gone too hard with the boys over pre season regarding their workload.

Ive spoken to my Sport Science friend and he said that it is fairly common that when a new coach comes in,they push the guys harder than normal which results in these sorts of injuries.

I just wonder if Bucks is trying to get the guys to train as hard and proffesionally as he did when he was playing?

This is not a bag on Bucks either.

Good Point - but I would've thought Butters would be managing the training load?

 

[rustyg70]

Good Point - but I would've thought Butters would be managing the training load?

I realise this, but I can't help but think that Bucks would've liked to stamp himself and his old training ways into his new side.
He was the upmost professional trainer from all reports.

I might be wrong,but didn't Essendon have the same problems when Hird came in and Brisbane to a lesser extent with Voss?

 

[Alexander323bc]

Talking about injuries, I wonder what the AFL would say if, and it is a big if, injuries go up this year, two years after they introduce the sub rule! I would be waiting for the report with interest, unless the AFL refuse to publish numbers that go against their thinking, you know like Stalin and Hitler and "insert tyrant name here".

 

[Krueger]

Who gets sacked when a team is playing crap? The coach ofcourse since he has failed to get the best out of the players for whatever reason.

 

[Scodog10]

Talking about injuries, I wonder what the AFL would say if, and it is a big if, injuries go up this year, two years after they introduce the sub rule! I would be waiting for the report with interest, unless the AFL refuse to publish numbers that go against their thinking, you know like Stalin and Hitler and "insert tyrant name here".

They went up last year though.

The AFL just glossed over this by selectively releasing which injuries had reduced when all the data was made public.

I can't remember what the exact changes were but it was something along the lines of hamstrings, ankles and knees decreasing and groins, concussions, shoulders, calfs and quads all increasing.

The AFL just chose to focus their publicity on the hamstrings, ankles and knees decreasing and ignore the rest of the data....

Who gets sacked when a team is playing crap? The coach ofcourse since he has failed to get the best out of the players for whatever reason.

Are you actually suggesting we sack Buckley 3 rounds into the first season of a 3 year contract?? I know you hate the succession plan and what went on with it with a passion, but this is seven shades of shit crazy!

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

Re: Where did we loose our way?

Our best centre square grp, vs their vest centre square group. We get destroyed, NOTHING to do with coaches there.

Well Kreuzer was the man, he jumped and ran and took the opportunities.
We have looked poor in the back half since the NAB cup... that's coaching.

 

[DermiesLuvChild]

Eddie: Bucks not that one !! You still have 3 years to go !

Bucks: Oh, I thought it was Micks espresso machine.

Eddie: No worries. Keep up the good work.....remember I want 15 to 1. Then in October we buy that stadium in Royal Parade & turn it into an amusement park.....lock it in.

 

[half_back_flank]

Who gets sacked when a team is playing crap? The coach ofcourse since he has failed to get the best out of the players for whatever reason.

good to see you haven't overreacted.

 

[MISFITS]

Keefe??
He got beaten...yes..
When Reid went down he was the only one who put his hand up to man up on Waite..
He kept fighting. Him and Maxwell were the only 2 up back.
I would persist with Keefe.!

The rest iob the comments are true..
Sinclare and the the newys look boyish.