A Dare.....

[SydCrow]

Look I do agree with what you've said and I think a major issue is the fact that we oversetimated where this list was at at the end of last season. We felt we had the best list we've ever had and one that was capable of finishing top 4 and a real chance for the flag. We therefore thought the vets would be the icing on the cake and may well take us deep into the finals and possibly to a GF. We didn't anticipate how dramatic the decline in form would be for the likes of Edwards and Burton and to a lesser extent Macca. And we didn't make the hard call on Hentschel either.

And obviously we didn't count on the fact that so many of our players who needed to take the next step to becoming senior players ie Knights, Porps, Vince or players who were senior players but needed to take on leadership roles ie Bock, Thommo would have interrupted/limited preseasons.

The problem is if we're looking at premiership teams having those 100-150 game players - it comes down to whether or not the club made a realistic appraisal of our list and it's capabilities. If you believe they did and it's only injuries that stopped us pushing into the top 4 then keeping the senior players on was the right call. If you believe the appraisal was wrong and that realisitically our next premiership flag push was when our new crop of young players start to become regular AFL players, then the decision was wrong and we should have moved on at least 1 or 2 senior players andfocussed on getting our youngsters gametime and fasttracking their development to get to that point. It all comes down to what you believe to be the true appraisal of where we were at at the end of 2009.

if you look at fast tracking the youngsters we have I think you could say that Henderson and Jaensch have had a lot of footy for rookies (probably due for a rest soon) and Davis has had a fair crack. Gunston should get some more games. Cook had a run and Smack hasn't earned one. Young had a taste and might have got more without injury. Shaw, Talia and Craig were injured. Wright, Riley and Thompson maybe an outside chance but not demanding selection. Have I forgotten anyone? Davis is probably the only one who could make a compelling case for more game time. So, even with our veterans still on the list, the youngsters are being developed.

You could argue that if we had retired 2 or 3 of them, we would have a couple more kids to add to the list.

 

[cmndstab]

Well you highlight for me the influence they have had this year Burton has ended up barely even playing, Edwards gone half way through the year, Mcleod pretty much has only played half the year and Goodwin is now missing the last third of the season, you know why they were kept on.........DEPTH and to save face because the AFC didnt want to completely bottom out, it was the wrong desicion, Im sick of safe and not taking a risk and avoiding controversy and non explinations to the members/supporters from the AFC.

Let's say we hadn't kept them on, and look back at what would have happened. Let's say that we delisted even one of them. Burton would have been the correct choice given he's contributed nothing to us this year. It couldn't have been Goodwin - think of all the arguing about whether VB is good enough or if Danger is old enough, and take it back to the start of this season where VB barely got on the training track. It would have been a disaster. Both McLeod and Edwards have contributed well at times in the season. Hentschel is the other possibility I guess. So let's say we choose to delist one of Burton or Hentschel at the end of last season.

First thing's first, we would have had an extra pick in the draft, somewhere in the 70s. It has been noted that there were only two players left on our "wanted" list at the end of the draft - #31 was Luke Thompson (who we ended up with anyway), and #32 was someone else who slips my mind but was taken before our first rookie pick (possibly by the Gold Coast? I forget now). We would have taken Thompson with our first extra national draft pick, which would have bumped Wright and Jaensch up in our rookie picks. Rendell has commented he would have chosen to pass on the third rookie pick if Thompson had not been available for the first pick, so therefore we can assume that in this scenario he passes on the third rookie pick. Net result - we end up with the identical squad we have now. The only main benefit is that Thompson has spent the season on the main list and so we've had an opportunity to play him if we wanted to.

Fast forward to the 2010 draft - a so-called "compromised" draft. With an extra veteran already gone, we've got one less delisting/retirement this season, and therefore one less forced pick. However, in our current situation, we have the option to upgrade Luke Thompson and consider that as one of our picks. Thompson is probably unlikely to upgraded yet but the option is there if we're concerned about having to pick too deep.

Then we look at the effect of depriving experience. Burton has played six games this year, Hentschel three. I guess if Burton had been out, it would likely have meant four extra games to Walker. Not sure who Hentschel was holding out of the squad for his three games.


Of course, had we delisted more than one, we would have likely picked up our 32nd choice with our final pick in the draft. Almost certainly wouldn't have made a difference this season but perhaps in later seasons.

If Goodwin had been the one delisted, Schmidt would likely have played more of the year - and let's be honest, he's a depth player. NVB would almost certainly be captain at the moment, and since the popular opinion here seems to be that captains are captains for their entire career, that would be the end of the Dangerfield discussion for a while. If it were Edwards, then probably Cook would have played more games before Sloane was available again, as he was really the only uninjured midfielder on the main list not getting a game in that period. Hardly disasterous that those two events didn't occur. Meanwhile it's safe to say we'd be a couple of games poorer on the ladder at least without their influence, likely on the way to the wooden spoon with four difficult games still to go here. I don't give a damn about the value of pick 4, I never want a wooden spoon for the Crows. Ever.


Overall, the whole "veterans should have been delisted" thing is a bit of a non-event. Other than the Walker debacle earlier in the season, it would have made absolutely no difference on how we've gone this season. Admittedly, the emergence of our rookie players has helped enormously in making this coming draft simpler - being able to upgrade Jaensch, Henderson, and possibly Schmidt, Thompson or Wright (Riley seems unlikely at this stage, though not impossible...) will mean we're not forced to pick deep into a draft missing an entire round of picks. It will also give us the opportunity to pick up a fresh batch of mature-age league-level players on our rookie list, which proved successful last season.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Goodwin was an All Australian last year - any thought of him not playing on in 2010 would have been complete and utter madness.

 

[cmndstab]

The problem is that we get these talented youngsters who never take the step up to the next level. van Berlo and Reilly are classic examples who looked like becoming guns but are really just run of the mill AFL players. Bock did for a while but his fitness is not AFL standard atm. Vince did for a season but this year has regressed badly (apart from the Geelong game).

Did Reilly ever look like becoming a gun? Admittedly it was a bit before my hardcore Crows-following days, but my recollection of him was that he always looked kind of average in his early days. Not sure about his early SANFL form, that's long gone from my memory. I think it's only his position in the draft that had people thinking so highly of him originally.

Bock is a superstar who has been cruelled by injury this year. Assuming he stays at the Crows next year, some people on here are going to look back at what they've said about him this year and blush. He's a brilliant player.

Jury is still out on Vince, if he can recapture his 2009 form he'll be well above a run of the mill AFL player. Van Berlo has had a miserable two years with injury but assuming he can get past that there's no reason to think he won't be a very good player. Tell you what, if you told me when we gave up a second rounder to pick him up that he would be in the box seat to take the captaincy in six years time I'd have taken that

 

[VSTone]

Bock is a superstar who has been cruelled by injury this year. Assuming he stays at the Crows next year, some people on here are going to look back at what they've said about him this year and blush. He's a brilliant player.

I agree he's a damn good footballer...but he's part of a team that has been
piss poor since he's been back...

until he does something to change the course of a game then he's just another passenger that others with much less talent have to cover...
and maybe it wont be until next year that he gets his s**t together...
you get the big bucks for taking responsibility...nothing else...

he's playing like a link player at the moment...CHB is all about getting the f***ing ball....for your team mates... seen him do it once in two matches
that's phenomenal output... from a gun... a pop gun... needs a rocket
sorry

 

[Allefgib]

Overall, the whole "veterans should have been delisted" thing is a bit of a non-event. Other than the Walker debacle earlier in the season, it would have made absolutely no difference on how we've gone this season. Admittedly, the emergence of our rookie players has helped enormously in making this coming draft simpler - being able to upgrade Jaensch, Henderson, and possibly Schmidt, Thompson or Wright (Riley seems unlikely at this stage, though not impossible...) will mean we're not forced to pick deep into a draft missing an entire round of picks. It will also give us the opportunity to pick up a fresh batch of mature-age league-level players on our rookie list, which proved successful last season.

I think your ignorning what the supporters mentality to this season would have been. Far lower expectations. The old guys were all kept on because there was a belief we were ready to challenge for top 4 and potentially a flag. We seemed to be arrogant enough to assume we couldn't do it the hard way by rebuilding the list fully.

I think you're also ignoring the impact lowered expecatations may have had on the early season woes. The wheels fell off and becuase our expectations were so high and we had backed ourselves into a corner over the decision to keep all the vetrans it took a long time to change our mentality and realise we needed to drop them from the senior side. Once those changes start to happen, there was some pain, but there was also progress.

I don't think anyone is saying we would have won more games if we had not kept on all the old guys. I think people are trying to say it would have been better progress if we had.

 

[VSTone]

how many of our first 22 have been injured this year?
practically all of them

big pre-seasons are good if the players can cut it

quite clearly this seasons pre-season was way too big for most
and cost the team dearly...

then we finally get some momentum and the selectors go and screw with it
... pure genius

no wonder supporters are miffed

 

[King Elvis]

Goodwin was an All Australian last year - any thought of him not playing on in 2010 would have been complete and utter madness.

If fit, he would've been AA this year as well.

And don't worry about Bocky, we were trying to play him into form/fitness if the finals happened for us, now, it doesn't matter.

 

[BACCS]

........to Neil Craig say to the players this week we are going to throw caution to the wind because clearly whatever we are doing isnt working and tell the players your free to play your natural game with flair and arrogance and a bit of hardness and toughness, take the game on and lets see what happens, honestly what have we got to lose???

We could kick straight, that might help.

 

[cmndstab]

I think your ignorning what the supporters mentality to this season would have been. Far lower expectations. The old guys were all kept on because there was a belief we were ready to challenge for top 4 and potentially a flag. We seemed to be arrogant enough to assume we couldn't do it the hard way by rebuilding the list fully.

I think you're also ignoring the impact lowered expecatations may have had on the early season woes. The wheels fell off and becuase our expectations were so high and we had backed ourselves into a corner over the decision to keep all the vetrans it took a long time to change our mentality and realise we needed to drop them from the senior side. Once those changes start to happen, there was some pain, but there was also progress.

I don't think anyone is saying we would have won more games if we had not kept on all the old guys. I think people are trying to say it would have been better progress if we had.

I'm far from convinced that your second paragraph reflects reality (the Walker/Burton saga is the only example I can think of...) but at least it's a remotely plausible argument that keeping on the veterans had any kind of negative effect.

I'm not really considering what our expectations were. Yes, the veterans were expected to be the cream on top of a top-4 ready squad, but the fact is they wouldn't have been there if the club didn't believe they could contribute to the side.

I'm also less than convinced that we would have had better progress if the veterans had not played. I'm strongly opposed to the prevailing sentiment that simply giving kids games because nobody else is there to take their spot is in any way beneficial.

 

[Allefgib]

Edwards is another who they took a long time to consider dropping - when arguably his from did not warrant continued selection.

My post holds true for my own personal perceptions. No issue with people having different opinions. I'd be suprised if there were not others who shared some of my views.

 

[jenny61_99]

Edwards is another who they took a long time to consider dropping - when arguably his from did not warrant continued selection.

My post holds true for my own personal perceptions. No issue with people having different opinions. I'd be suprised if there were not others who shared some of my views.

But don't you think a Champion of the Club who's played 300+ games gets a little more leeway than your average Joe? Can't you see that's what happened here? It wasn't as if 9 weeks passed before anything was said to him. He would have been told - maybe after 5 - that he had 3 weeks to get it right (or something like that).

 

[Macjoe]

Awesome discussion of this issue, Commander. When it occured I couldn't see any major downside - I thought, not completely correctly as it turned out - that the really young kids were not going to be ready, needed another year or so.

As things turned out:

...Overall, the whole "veterans should have been delisted" thing is a bit of a non-event...

It's not black or white, however. Allefgib's interpretations of the effect of the decision resonate with my thoughts when I'm in the "glass half empty" mood.

... the impact lowered expecatations may have had on the early season woes. The wheels fell off and because our expectations were so high and we had backed ourselves into a corner over the decision to keep all the vetrans it took a long time to change our mentality and realise we needed to drop them from the senior side. Once those changes start to happen, there was some pain, but there was also progress.

I don't think anyone is saying we would have won more games if we had not kept on all the old guys. I think people are trying to say it would have been better progress if we had.

I don't think we would have made "better progress", because I think we have made about as much progress with the development of the squad as possible in the end - our younger players are running out of steam already. We may put game time into some depth players, that would be good - but the main squad development necessary seems to have occured.

Did Reilly ever look like becoming a gun? ...

Oh, yes. There were some matches in 2005, where he ran off the half-back/wing as an outside player to link and score, benefitting from the really good inside work of our star midfield, when it looked like he could walk on water. There was some serious drooling going on then.