A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[Garlic muncher]

Depth? Thats what they are doing with the northern academies and clubs.
As much as it is about tv money its also about growing the junior base. Dont let the tin foil hat slip to much.

You are exactly right, growth in a junior base would expect to see a growth in income at the top end, the Northern academies are an attempt to replicate the TAC cup in a way, an advantage Victoria has had for many years, players that don't make the top grade head back to suburban clubs and lift standards.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Bud, what is your criterion for this game? Chasing the TV dollar?

Sure, the AFL head honchos will receive mega remuneration morphing Aussie Rules into an entertainment TV ratings game. I fully expect them to "grow" the game on the planet Jupiter. And you only have to see the grifters and hucksters running the AFL - investments bankers and Establishment favorite sons from the big end of town trying to impress their peer group.

Since when did not establishment sons and investment bankers not run the game ?

Do they have at heart the interests of the average Joe fan? Answer - Hell, no.
...

Enough of them do from time to time and no matter what you think of the AFL commission, have a look how the game was going pre commission ?

TV interests are totally antithetical to the interests and focus of the traditional footy fan. Yet they pay the money and the toll because when it comes to religion us fans will always kick in to the collection plate. We have no choice...

That is for the AFL to put the brakes on, they need to tread the fine line between the tribal game attending fan and TV watcher, late Sunday arvo games are for mine a no no unless a Monday public holiday or school Holidays.

 

[WestCoast05]

But aren't they all Brits/Sorf Efrikans? Fans of diving divas and shirt lifters?

Yep, obviously you know a bit about Perth.

Perth's northern suburbs, which sprawl in a strip along the beaches, would be more suited to an A-league haha.
Not sure on the actual amount of supporters up there.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Yep, obviously you know a bit about Perth.

Perth's northern suburbs, which sprawl in a strip along the beaches, would be more suited to an A-league haha.
Not sure on the actual amount of supporters up there.

Yet some of the biggest junior clubs in the country are all up in the northern suburbs of Perth - Joondalup/Kinross, Whitfords, Sorrento, Quinn's all have around 1,000 kids playing each as well as pretty big junior clubs in Ocean Ridge, wanneroo etc

 

[Kwality]

Depth? Thats what they are doing with the northern academies and clubs.
As much as it is about tv money its also about growing the junior base. Dont let the tin foil hat slip to much.

... here is some good news for footy in Sydney, good for the game, no reason for more teams, growing the depth:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/gws/gws-giants-widen-search-for-footballs-hottest-talent/news-story/260dade09f9b369b1b3023740ef267f0

In his time at Essendon, Quinn worked with one of the AFL’s greatest indigenous players in Michael Long and has two super talents at GWS with Zac Williams and Nathan Wilson.

He believes the Aboriginal talent in Western Sydney is virtually untapped.

“There are more indigenous Australians living in Western Sydney than the whole of the Northern Territory, yet none of them are playing AFL,” Quinn said.

“We need to change that. I’ve always thought indigenous Australians have better visual perception than non-indigenous people. I look at players I’ve worked with over the years like Michael Long and Dean Rioli and Andrew Lovett. They all seem to have this special awareness and time and vision more than other mere mortals.

 

[Kwality]

The same as in qld. The afl rolling out their auskick programs, every where & giving the kids options at a young age. The full effects of those programs will not be seen untill several years down the track

Hasn't worked for basketball.

 

[Colonial]

Hasn't worked for basketball.

To be fair the nbl as a league is not something kids dream about. And im a kings fan

 

[bombersfan4000]

Hasn't worked for basketball.

Did in the 90s

 

[Kwality]

To be fair the nbl as a league is not something kids dream about. And im a kings fan

& the best of the players get a US scholarship ... the Auskick claim is trotted out as if its a fact, its not !!

The best of the soccer juniors don't play A-league.

 

[Colonial]

& the best of the players get a US scholarship ... the Auskick claim is trotted out as if its a fact, its not !!

The best of the soccer juniors don't play A-league.

True. But to get the big money in those sports you really have to leave the country. Not so much for Aussie Rules players.

 

[Kwality]

True. But to get the big money in those sports you really have to leave the country. Not so much for Aussie Rules players.

Also true, but I'd couch it in terms of playing your sport at the highest level.
More teams have dragged down the standard/depth of our great game, dragged down the highest level of AFL footy.
If money is the measure, Patty Mills was a talent in Aussie Rules, & is currently earning approx. $US 4m per annum in the world of basketball & will be suiting up at Rio in the medal chase. Auskick?

 

[Colonial]

Also true, but I'd couch it in terms of playing your sport at the highest level.
More teams have dragged down the standard/depth of our great game, dragged down the highest level of AFL footy.
If money is the measure, Patty Mills was a talent in Aussie Rules, & is currently earning approx. $US 4m per annum in the world of basketball & will be suiting up at Rio in the medal chase. Auskick?

Nah. Theres always a team that comes last. And there have been worse teams than the current crop of spooners with less teams in the comp.

Auskick provides a pathway to a game they can earn big dollars and stay at home. Only league comes close to that.

 

[telsor]

You are exactly right, growth in a junior base would expect to see a growth in income at the top end, the Northern academies are an attempt to replicate the TAC cup in a way, an advantage Victoria has had for many years, players that don't make the top grade head back to suburban clubs and lift standards.

Except with the academies, there will be very little development of those who don't make the grade.

We're told those clubs will only run the academies if they get the benefits, so it follows that as soon as they work out a kid isn't going to make it/get selected, then they'll be cut from the program. Why waste resources on players who aren't going to pay for you.

The AFL should run it, and take the top 50 or so kids per area through until they're 18, unlike the clubs who will only care about *maybe* a dozen (including the possibles).

 

[Kwality]

Except with the academies, there will be very little development of those who don't make the grade.

We're told those clubs will only run the academies if they get the benefits, so it follows that as soon as they work out a kid isn't going to make it/get selected, then they'll be cut from the program. Why waste resources on players who aren't going to pay for you.

The AFL should run it, and take the top 50 or so kids per area through until they're 18, unlike the clubs who will only care about *maybe* a dozen (including the possibles).

Is it fair to put this only on academies?

Who develops the kids that are rejected in any system, don't they need to find a game somewhere commensurate with their ability. Its a real world out there, not many red carpets for the less talented.
All very well to expect the AFL to step up, but this level of footy is the land of the volunteer, aka club land, not the moneybags set that run our game today.

The AFL fund the TAC Cup on a different level to anything outside Vic, what is the score thru the earlier age groups?

 

[telsor]

Is it fair to put this only on academies?

Who develops the kids that are rejected in any system, don't they need to find a game somewhere commensurate with their ability. Its a real world out there, not many red carpets for the less talented.

TAC cup has 12 teams, so right until the end of the year there are 12 sets of players in order to field teams (So min 300, more likely 400-500) going through the training and development. From that 50-60 would be picked up, so around 10-20% of those squads.

Do you think clubs that are only doing it for their own recruitment purposes would put the effort into 5-10 times as many players as they're likely to need?

All very well to expect the AFL to step up, but this level of footy is the land of the volunteer, aka club land, not the moneybags set that run our game today.

The AFL fund the TAC Cup on a different level to anything outside Vic, what is the score thru the earlier age groups?

How much do you think they fund it (and other comps)? What do you base that on?

 

[Garlic muncher]

Except with the academies, there will be very little development of those who don't make the grade.

We're told those clubs will only run the academies if they get the benefits, so it follows that as soon as they work out a kid isn't going to make it/get selected, then they'll be cut from the program. Why waste resources on players who aren't going to pay for you.

The AFL should run it, and take the top 50 or so kids per area through until they're 18, unlike the clubs who will only care about *maybe* a dozen (including the possibles).

There is 500 kids plus in the Swans academy across a range of age groups from under 12's to under 18's ( roughly), a couple may make it, there are over 500 kids who every year get specialist training and return to their suburban or rural clubs much better off across a range of things.

The Swans know that 95% wont make it but they know that it creates a flow on effect generationally and the younger kids having seen the older academy members do their thing, pick those skills, attitudes, efforts etc earlier.

In other words they are growing up learning banana kicks, kicking left foot earlier, left hand handball etc because older members of their club, older brothers or older brothers mates ( academy members) have to use them, kids growing up in certain parts of NSW would not normally be exposed to this.

The academies make sense on so many levels it is just absolute folly to mess with them.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Perfect example of the Swans Academy is Heeney, however further afield in the North of the State at Kempsey... .......http://www.macleayargus.com.au/story/3972688/kempseys-afl-stars-in-big-win-over-nt/

To get kids out of a place like Kempsey playing in what these days are quite strong NSW teams is a pretty impressive.

 

[telsor]

There is 500 kids plus in the Swans academy across a range of age groups from under 12's to under 18's ( roughly), a couple may make it, there are over 500 kids who every year get specialist training and return to their suburban or rural clubs much better off across a range of things.

The Swans know that 95% wont make it but they know that it creates a flow on effect generationally and the younger kids having seen the older academy members do their thing, pick those skills, attitudes, efforts etc earlier.

In other words they are growing up learning banana kicks, kicking left foot earlier, left hand handball etc because older members of their club, older brothers or older brothers mates ( academy members) have to use them, kids growing up in certain parts of NSW would not normally be exposed to this.

The academies make sense on so many levels it is just absolute folly to mess with them.

500 kids of all ages...
2 points.

Those under 17 don't compare with the TAC cup, which was the point I was referring to.

How many are of each age? I'd guess there would be a lot at the lower ages, when there are more questions over their ability/dedication/etc and assistance would be fairly minor, and those numbers are sharply cut as they age so that by the time they're TAC cup age, there would be down to the dozen or so who have any chance of getting in.


As for 'The Swans know'...Considering the vast majority of kids are playing in (AFL sponsored/supported) junior comps, the 'generational growth' is bought and paid for by Victorian football, not the Swans (although really, we pay for them as well, so it amounts to the same thing).

 

[Ticky009]

Perfect example of the Swans Academy is Heeney, however further afield in the North of the State at Kempsey... .......http://www.macleayargus.com.au/story/3972688/kempseys-afl-stars-in-big-win-over-nt/

To get kids out of a place like Kempsey playing in what these days are quite strong NSW teams is a pretty impressive.

That's a nice link GM, hadn't seen that one, thanks for posting. Now I'm gonna nick it and add it to our academy thread.

 

[Kwality]

TAC cup has 12 teams, so right until the end of the year there are 12 sets of players in order to field teams (So min 300, more likely 400-500) going through the training and development. From that 50-60 would be picked up, so around 10-20% of those squads.

Do you think clubs that are only doing it for their own recruitment purposes would put the effort into 5-10 times as many players as they're likely to need?



How much do you think they fund it (and other comps)? What do you base that on?

The equivalent comp in WA is WAFL U 19s, & to my knowledge Subi receive no direct funding from the AFL - happy to be wrong. No academy preferential selection applies, not that I think it should.

 

[Kwality]

500 kids of all ages...
2 points.

Those under 17 don't compare with the TAC cup, which was the point I was referring to.

How many are of each age? I'd guess there would be a lot at the lower ages, when there are more questions over their ability/dedication/etc and assistance would be fairly minor, and those numbers are sharply cut as they age so that by the time they're TAC cup age, there would be down to the dozen or so who have any chance of getting in.


As for 'The Swans know'...Considering the vast majority of kids are playing in (AFL sponsored/supported) junior comps, the 'generational growth' is bought and paid for by Victorian football, not the Swans (although really, we pay for them as well, so it amounts to the same thing).

Funded thru NSWAFL ? Growing the game?

Don't QBE put their hand in their pocket:
We are also continuing our support of the QBE Sydney Swans Academy, an initiative designed to identify talent from as young as nine years old and shape them into future Swans players. It has become an integral part of the growth in the code in Sydney since its inception in 2010, and has done a great job developing the code at grassroots level by encouraging kids to participate in AFL.

https://www.qbe.com.au/about/community/sponsorship-hub/sydney-swans

 

[Garlic muncher]

More teams have dragged down the standard/depth of our great game, dragged down the highest level of AFL footy.

I actually thought about this and it occurred to me that if there was such a thing as a fair genuine national comp then there would actually be more than 18 teams, for starters there would be the 12 VFL teams minus of course South and Fitzroy who are now in the northern states in one form or another but a fair genuine national comp would include some of the biggest WAFL clubs, clubs who year after year would be bigger than the smaller VFL teams and in all probability beat them or come close depending on the year

How many WAFL and indeed SANFL clubs deserved a gig ?, Port Adelaide for a Start was no smaller than North or the Bulldogs, neither was East Fremantle, West Perth or even East Perth.

So really in an ideal National comp we would have ended up with around 20 teams, i am not really sure whether we would actually consider the depth dragged down by these traditional clubs.

What has dragged the standard down is the style of football which encourages athletes over footballers.

 

[Kwality]

I actually thought about this and it occurred to me that if there was such a thing as a fair genuine national comp then there would actually be more than 18 teams, for starters there would be the 12 VFL teams minus of course South and Fitzroy who are now in the northern states in one form or another but a fair genuine national comp would include some of the biggest WAFL clubs, clubs who year after year would be bigger than the smaller VFL teams and in all probability beat them or come close depending on the year

How many WAFL and indeed SANFL clubs deserved a gig ?, Port Adelaide for a Start was no smaller than North or the Bulldogs, neither was East Fremantle, West Perth or even East Perth.

So really in an ideal National comp we would have ended up with around 20 teams, i am not really sure whether we would actually consider the depth dragged down by these traditional clubs.

What has dragged the standard down is the style of football which encourages athletes over footballers.

The alternative view is whats best for footy, no entitlement, shock horror.

12 teams, meeting once at home, once on the road IMHO. NO clubs deserve a gig - in 1986 Subi won the WAFL flag, no DESERVE tag IMHO, it was a case where state based footy was moving to a national comp.
The Eagles were a compromise, why would Subi premiership players embrace playing for their 1986 opposition let alone their 1986 Grand Final opponents in East Freo (arguably the best performed club in WA footy at that time) - same for the formation of the Crows.
Woosha & Jako weren't asked to turn their backs on the Eagles despite their obvious Freo links in the mid 90s - compromise was the key to the transition to a national game.

At that time (1986) Origin* was the games peak comp, despite the narrow self serving parochial claims of we footy fans of that era, that the local club, in the local comp was the game, albeit without ALL the best players competing, somehow some of the best was good enough, e.g the VFL without indigenous footballers.

I'm on about the player pool. e.g 12 teams, say 40 on each list, the best 480 players not the 7-800 footballers.

*https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/afl/a/31999713/state-of-origin-30-years-on-part-one/
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/afl/a/32008373/state-of-origin-part-two/

The Foxtel Cup was an example of the clubs from everywhere comp. No one went, it didn't rate. Is this your idea of 'ideal', not for mine ... we all know its not that simple BUT second rate is not Aussie Rules at its best as the past few years have clearly demonstrated IMHO.

 

[telsor]

The equivalent comp in WA is WAFL U 19s, & to my knowledge Subi receive no direct funding from the AFL - happy to be wrong. No academy preferential selection applies, not that I think it should.

WAFC does, both directly and indirectly (through the WA clubs) and WAFC gives money to Subi (et al).

 

[telsor]

Funded thru NSWAFL ? Growing the game?

Don't QBE put their hand in their pocket:
We are also continuing our support of the QBE Sydney Swans Academy, an initiative designed to identify talent from as young as nine years old and shape them into future Swans players. It has become an integral part of the growth in the code in Sydney since its inception in 2010, and has done a great job developing the code at grassroots level by encouraging kids to participate in AFL.

https://www.qbe.com.au/about/community/sponsorship-hub/sydney-swans

QBE do pay for part of the Swans academy, sure.

But what about Brisbane, GWS & GC? Those 3 clubs can't pay for anything without the AFL signing off on it and funding it.

Even QBE...Why do they fund the Swans? For the PR of course (as with any advertiser), and why do they get that PR? Because the AFL pushes it on the NSW public (TV deal forcing low rating/loss making broadcast onto FTA TV, 'encouraging' friendly media and government support). All of which is fine to help grow the game/support, but for 2 things...The on field manipulation and people pretending they're stronger than they are.