Aboriginal Statistics?

Kwality

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#26
Still can't believe Collingwood had just two Indigenous players represent them between 1896-1994.
If you go back to the days of the State based competitions, compare Collingwood with WAFL club South Fremantle (no, I dont support them) who have a proud history of indigenous players
http://www.sffc.com.au/assets/SFFC/The-Aboriginal-Connection.pdf
The Rioli clan started coming down to play at South (Sebby), Maurice went via South to Richmond in the VFL days, Dean went via South to Essendon in the AFL era.

Certainly one of the best ever indigenous footballers Stephen Michael played 243 games at South.
http://www.sffc.com.au/assets/SFFC/SFFC-Indigenous-Players.pdf
 

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35Daicos

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#27
I don't believe that Graeme Lee should be included in the list. Don't remember any reference to him having aboriginal heritage connection when he played with Wynyard, Launceston and East Devonport in the 1960s & 1970s. In that same era however, players like Eddie Thomas (East L'ton/Wynyard) and Neil Maynard (North L'ton) were acknowledged as such members of the community. I'll get in touch with St Kilda FC and seek clarification about Lee's entry.
Thanks for that, the croucher, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. The AFL don't name Lee (or Darren Bolton) on any of their lists, I've included them only because they are named on the Aboriginal Football website (http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-5545-0-0-0&sID=222357). I can vaguely remember discussing the issue with Darren (Moncrieff) from that website. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's being updated anymore.

Bolton is an interesting one. This list on the South Fremantle site:- http://www.southfremantlefc.com.au/assets/SFFC/SFFC-Indigenous-Players.pdf
names him. I'm puzzled though, as I see elsewhere that he was a Peel Thunder player. Perhaps there were 2 Darren Bolton's in the WAFL at that time and that has caused the confusion, or (more likely) Fremantle moved him from Peel Thunder to South Fremantle for the 1999 season.
 

35Daicos

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#28
This seems to confirm that Darren Bolton (Fremantle) belongs on the official list of AFL Indigenous Players:- http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/koorimail/issues/pdf/285.pdf

(Page 1) Noongar footballer Allistair Pickett has taken out the highest honour in Western Australian Australian Rules, the Sandover Medal. He is shown here celebrating with Peel Thunder
teammates Daniel Wells (right) and Darren Bolton, two other Noongars who were equal second and fourth respectively in the Sandover count.

(Page 58) Pickett said the fact that he and Wells and Bolton were Indigenous was also important. "There's a real bond there and we're a pretty tight unit off the field, so
that made it even more special. I was rapt for the boys, he said.

I don't know why but it won't let me save the 2 individual pages I wanted to attach here. The PDF is a 15.1 MB file, so downloading it to check it out may not be for everyone!
 

35Daicos

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#29
Regarding Darren Bolton I sent an email to Michael Lovett at the AFL last night regarding his case and also mentioned Norm Le Brun, providing a link to the posts here and letting him know of the Glenn McFarlane article. I've received a couple of responses already, and here is what was said in them regarding this:-

Thanks for that Rob. I have passed your email on to Col Hutchison and Cameron Sinclair to check but it looks like you are correct in both instances.
==========================================
Col/Cam:
Rob Harris has sent this through and it appears he is correct with both players (Darren Bolton and Norm Le Brun). Can you let me know and I'll get back to Rob.
Thanks,
Michael.


Michael,
Yes, that would appear to be a legitimate claim.
Regards
Col


Rob,
Col says your information is correct.
I'll get it updated for the 2014 Guide.
Cheers,
Michael.
==========================================
To Saint Kidding, I certainly let Michael know that the hard work regarding the Le Brun "revelation" was not done by me, that it was someone else's "handiwork" and that I was simply alerting him to what had been uncovered.
 

Kwality

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#30
Well done Daics.

Can I ask if you believe including the VFL era with the national comp produce stats that are relevant?

The national comp has seen indigenous footballers from across the country strutting their stuff. VFL footy rarely saw their talents, they were playing though, just not in Victoria.

I am cynical of abuse of stats, a bit like the premierships issue, e.g the Blues & Port both have 1 x AFL flags & heaps of state based flags.
 

35Daicos

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#31
Well done Daics.

Can I ask if you believe including the VFL era with the national comp produce stats that are relevant?

The national comp has seen indigenous footballers from across the country strutting their stuff. VFL footy rarely saw their talents, they were playing though, just not in Victoria.

I am cynical of abuse of stats, a bit like the premierships issue, e.g the Blues & Port both have 1 x AFL flags & heaps of state based flags.
G'day Kwality.

It's not an issue that I lose any sleep over at all. It seems to bother plenty of SA and WA people who have a big chip on their shoulder, though. I've read the thread on the main board where this is being discussed, and it's just the same old thing being rehashed.

I'm well aware there were some fine footballers (indigenous and otherwise) who never went to Victoria to play, but Graham Farmer still played 101 games in this competition, Michael Tuck played 426, Carlton still have 16 premierships etc. Same competition, different name and with a few teams added.
 

Kwality

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#32
G'day Kwality.

It's not an issue that I lose any sleep over at all. It seems to bother plenty of SA and WA people who have a big chip on their shoulder, though. I've read the thread on the main board where this is being discussed, and it's just the same old thing being rehashed.

I'm well aware there were some fine footballers (indigenous and otherwise) who never went to Victoria to play, but Graham Farmer still played 101 games in this competition, Michael Tuck played 426, Carlton still have 16 premierships etc. Same competition, different name and with a few teams added.
You ignore the relevance of the stats, its simply misleading to quote the VFL stats then wax lyrical about increased numbers of aboriginal players playing the game at the highest level.

Interesting your view of WA & SA people who regard Vics in much the same light, but thats not relevant to statistics IF you see then shedding light on any subject, as Mark Twain wrote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
 

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#33
I don't believe that Graeme Lee should be included in the list. Don't remember any reference to him having aboriginal heritage connection when he played with Wynyard, Launceston and East Devonport in the 1960s & 1970s. In that same era however, players like Eddie Thomas (East L'ton/Wynyard) and Neil Maynard (North L'ton) were acknowledged as such members of the community. I'll get in touch with St Kilda FC and seek clarification about Lee's entry.
I don't know how you're getting on as far as talking to the Saints is concerned, but I just "stumbled upon" this in an article in The Age on star boxer Daniel Geale:-

Like Tasmania's first AFL/VFL footballer with indigenous heritage, St Kilda's Graeme ''Gypsy'' Lee, Geale descends on his mother's side from a famous northern Tasmanian Aboriginal matriarch, Dolly Dalrymple.
 

RogersResults

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#34
You ignore the relevance of the stats, its simply misleading to quote the VFL stats then wax lyrical about increased numbers of aboriginal players playing the game at the highest level.

Interesting your view of WA & SA people who regard Vics in much the same light, but thats not relevant to statistics IF you see then shedding light on any subject, as Mark Twain wrote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
The degradation of the meaning of words contributes to a pervasive and general ignorance. The linked Wikipedia entry misses the subtlety of Twain's quip.
(Taking Wikipedia as a primary source of information warrants a world-wide collective kick up the backside.)

The number of players of a particular ethnic identity playing in a competition or the number premierships won by a team in a competition are facts (if recorded accurately) not "stats" or "statistics".

Statistics is the science of interpreting and analysing numerical data. Numerical data if true and accurate can be used to reach conclusions through a scientific process of statistical analysis.

You often hear this piece of nonsense, "You can prove anything with statistics". No you can't. A statistical analysis can't make something false, true. What is usually meant by the phrase "You can prove anything with statistics" (often coming from someone defending an illegitimate position of power or privilege) is "I don't like the facts". (Which is what Twain was getting at.)

Sometimes simple numerical facts can settle an argument - e.g. which Australian state has the highest population - others like percentage of indigenous players in particular competitions and eras requires consideration and analysis of other factors beyond the numerical data - relative rates of the dispossession of Aboriginal peoples in different regions, policies regarding segregation and assimilation in different eras and regions, 'racial' categorisations under the false science of 'race' in past eras and laws that treated Aboriginal people differently from the rest of the population etc.

Finally, the Australian Football League is a competition administered by the same body since it was founded at the end of 1896. All records from the start of the competition in 1897 are Australian Football League records. The records don't start and stop with name alterations or the admission of new clubs or the relocation of clubs. Historical circumstances have meant that the competition begun in Victoria (with a regional team outside of the main metropolitan city) in 1897 has evolved into the first national Australian Football competition. References by supporters of clubs that have acceded to the League after 1986 to "VFL" and "AFL" eras with suggestions that records should only exist from the year the League had to order new stationary (1990) and ill-thought through notions of introducing retrospective status categories of premierships awarded by the League, only re-enforces the unfortunate stereotype of the residents of the states playing Australian Football outside of Victoria as having an 'inferiority complex'.

Supporters of any team playing in the AFL should be proud of being part of a premier competition with 117 years of continuity and currently the highest attendance at matches on a population basis of any national football competition (of any code) in the world.

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/finance-biz/business-intelligence/global-attendances/

(Note: Not a Wikipedia reference. ;))
 

Kwality

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#35
Fair dinkum Roger, trying to base a rogering on a linking to wikipedia to denigrate anything, anywhere, anytime is puerile, even more so on general interest forum as footy is.

Needing to derail the discussion on aboriginal statistics in the AFL with a link that is trumpeted as
(Note: Not a Wikipedia reference. ;))​
begs the question: are you trying to claim a level of intellectual superiority or an expertise in abusing statistics?​
I plead guilty to offering the link to the famed Mark Twain quote in passing, not offering wikipedia as the definitive link in any way, shape or form.​
 

RogersResults

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#36
Fair dinkum Roger, trying to base a rogering on a linking to wikipedia to denigrate anything, anywhere, anytime is puerile, even more so on general interest forum as footy is.

Needing to derail the discussion on aboriginal statistics in the AFL with a link that is trumpeted as
(Note: Not a Wikipedia reference. ;))​
begs the question: are you trying to claim a level of intellectual superiority or an expertise in abusing statistics?​
I plead guilty to offering the link to the famed Mark Twain quote in passing, not offering wikipedia as the definitive link in any way, shape or form.​
Too many people have come to rely on Wikipedia as the only source of information. Many of the entries are not vetted with any authority. The entry on "lies, damned lies and statistics" shows no recognition of Twain's satiric purpose and only further adds to the confusion of what statistics are.

Perhaps in was your intention by providing the link to demonstrate the general ignorance on what statistics are, if so I apologise.

Now rather than 'derailing' the discussion .....

"Sometimes simple numerical facts can settle an argument - e.g. which Australian state has the highest population - others like percentage of indigenous players in particular competitions and eras requires consideration and analysis of other factors beyond the numerical data - relative rates of the dispossession of Aboriginal peoples in different regions, policies regarding segregation and assimilation in different eras and regions, 'racial' categorisations under the false science of 'race' in past eras and laws that treated Aboriginal people differently from the rest of the population etc."

I would think that might be a starter to share knowledge beyond the raw data of numbers.
 

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Kwality

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#37
& the attempt to roger based on the wiki link was ...

With your comment I do agree:
I would think that might be a starter to share knowledge beyond the raw data of numbers.

Daics professes to be about the stats; are the raw numbers reflective or simply a tool abused to support a pre ordained view. e.g
I'm well aware there were some fine footballers (indigenous and otherwise) who never went to Victoria to play, but Graham Farmer still played 101 games in this competition, Michael Tuck played 426, Carlton still have 16 premierships etc. Same competition, different name and with a few teams added.
 

5aint

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#38
Hey so i know I'm a bit behind times here but Don Keyter is my great uncle, i've stumbled accross a few posts and articles claiming he's an indigenous player...but ive never known any Aboriginal heritage in my family i can't quite follow or not whether you guys do or don't believe he is Aboriginal but i'm interested Is there a way to find out where this claim came from in the first place, was it a newspaper?
 

35Daicos

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#39
Hey so i know I'm a bit behind times here but Don Keyter is my great uncle, i've stumbled accross a few posts and articles claiming he's an indigenous player...but ive never known any Aboriginal heritage in my family i can't quite follow or not whether you guys do or don't believe he is Aboriginal but i'm interested Is there a way to find out where this claim came from in the first place, was it a newspaper?
Thanks for bringing this up here. I wasn't aware of this "development", but I see AFL Record Season 2018 (Guide) no longer includes him on the list of Every Known Indigenous Player. His name has been on the list in past year's editions, so the AFL were obviously made aware of this sometime in the last year or so. I've no idea where that claim came from originally, but there's been a fair few examples over the years of VFL/AFL players who were mistakenly believed to be indigenous, and included on such lists.

I see this topic has been covered in a recent article on the Swans' website (you are probably aware of it): Ruckman and centre-half forward Don Keyter is remembered as a selfless footballer and a “tireless battler” as The Argus newspaper aptly reported in 1958 – and until recently he was also credited as being the first Indigenous player to pull on a Swans jumper.

Keyter enjoyed a career spanning 86 games and 81 goals over six seasons from 1953-58.

The story goes that he arrived in the northern Victorian town of Merbein on the back of a picker’s train for the local grape harvest.

The rest, as they say, is history – however the history books appear to have one important detail incorrect.

The Sydney Swans have been contacted by Don Keyter’s niece, who says the family would be proud to have Indigenous heritage, however, their lineage is from South Africa.

It seems Keyter’s father was from South Africa, while his mother grew up in Mildura after her family immigrated from England.

The Keyter family wanted to set the record straight, to ensure the correct player is celebrated as the Swans’ first of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander heritage – and that player is Elkin Reilly.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2018-05-28/lifting-the-lid-on-our-heritage
 

5aint

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#40
Thanks for the reply i am aware of all of the below, i just wanted to find out where the original belief came from that he was Indigenous. My mum (also his neice) and my nana (Dons sister) used to say they weren't 100% or too sure of my Nanas mums (Dons mums)heritage so i found this interesting and wondered where it came from..ill keep searching
Thanks for bringing this up here. I wasn't aware of this "development", but I see AFL Record Season 2018 (Guide) no longer includes him on the list of Every Known Indigenous Player. His name has been on the list in past year's editions, so the AFL were obviously made aware of this sometime in the last year or so. I've no idea where that claim came from originally, but there's been a fair few examples over the years of VFL/AFL players who were mistakenly believed to be indigenous, and included on such lists.

I see this topic has been covered in a recent article on the Swans' website (you are probably aware of it): Ruckman and centre-half forward Don Keyter is remembered as a selfless footballer and a “tireless battler” as The Argus newspaper aptly reported in 1958 – and until recently he was also credited as being the first Indigenous player to pull on a Swans jumper.

Keyter enjoyed a career spanning 86 games and 81 goals over six seasons from 1953-58.

The story goes that he arrived in the northern Victorian town of Merbein on the back of a picker’s train for the local grape harvest.

The rest, as they say, is history – however the history books appear to have one important detail incorrect.

The Sydney Swans have been contacted by Don Keyter’s niece, who says the family would be proud to have Indigenous heritage, however, their lineage is from South Africa.

It seems Keyter’s father was from South Africa, while his mother grew up in Mildura after her family immigrated from England.

The Keyter family wanted to set the record straight, to ensure the correct player is celebrated as the Swans’ first of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander heritage – and that player is Elkin Reilly.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2018-05-28/lifting-the-lid-on-our-heritage
 

35Daicos

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#41
Thanks for the reply i am aware of all of the below, i just wanted to find out where the original belief came from that he was Indigenous. My mum (also his neice) and my nana (Dons sister) used to say they weren't 100% or too sure of my Nanas mums (Dons mums)heritage so i found this interesting and wondered where it came from..ill keep searching
I did have a pretty good look in the newspapers (on Trove) to see if there was any mention of his being Indigenous and I didn't see it mentioned at all. So where the idea came from is certainly a mystery at the moment. Good luck in tracking it down!

Norm Byron* and Norm Le Brun are a couple of examples of players from the competition's earlier days who were mistakenly in the VFL/AFL records for many years as being Indigenous, and Geelong's Lincoln McCarthy and Richmond's Toby Nankervis are more recent examples where mistakes were made (but corrected rather quickly).

* I see Norm Byron's name is now back on the list of Every Known Indigenous Player in the AFL's Season Guide. What has happened there, I have no idea!! After information came to light several years ago (see this post) the AFL removed his name from the list in the 2014 book. So how did it get back there?!!
 
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