Business & Finance Accounting

[Power King]

Following on from the engineering and physiotherapy threads, thought I'd make one regarding accounting. Interested to hear people's experiences, particularly from accountants and accounting students themselves.

Simply curious to find out how one becomes an accountant? Do you need one specific degree in order to work as an accountant (like you need a physiotherapy degree to be a physiotherapist, a law degree to be a lawyer etc), or can you do any degree so long as it has accounting units? How interesting do/did you find your time at uni? How are you enjoying it as a career?

Only reason I'm making this thread is out of sheer curiosity since these are questions I've wondered about before but only now have I bothered to investigate.

 

[frantelle]

Just finished my commerce degree with majors in Financial Accounting and Corporate finance, I'll try answer the questions as accurately as I can.

I do want to become an investment banker at some point hence the corporate finance major, but in Perth its next to impossible to do so without doing accounting first.

Simply curious to find out how one becomes an accountant?

I might not be the best person to answer this. I've got a grad job a top tier firm starting January next year. There are basically 3 tiers of accountings firms that can take grads on. The tiers are determined by size of the company through employee numbers, revenue etc
Top Tier- usually referred to as the big 4, include PWC, Ernst & Young, Deloitte and KPMG
Mid Tier - lots more firms which include WHK Howard & Moore Stephens
Lower Tier - Lots of independent firms everywhere

I suppose before you are professionally recognised as an accountant you will have to complete a CA or CPA which is a professional accreditation. I can't tell you much about CPA as I won't be completing but a CA is about 5 'modules' that take about a third of a year each and you have to complete it within 3 years (might just be rules of my grad job though). You can't complete it until you have been working underneath someone who is CA accredited for 3 years. Most firms are usually CA or CPA so its not an issue. Generally the bigger firms are CA from what I have seen.

There is also going straight into industry (e.g. being an accountant for a mining company or a bank) and from my experience again the larger companies tend to push you towards CA. As for the argument which is better between CA and CPA really depends on who you talk to and what you want to get out of it. The basic differences I am aware of is that a CA requires a shitload more work. I have been told by a few people with a CPA that a CA is more valuable but have never heard it the other way around. As far as I know, if your happy to do accounting having a CPA is fine. I want to do CA because I want to do the finance equivalent and my CA will knock off a few modules for that.

Do you need one specific degree in order to work as an accountant (like you need a physiotherapy degree to be a physiotherapist, a law degree to be a lawyer etc), or can you do any degree so long as it has accounting units?

Not necessarily, it certainly helps though. However during my Vac work at EY and application process at PWC they will certainly look at anyone that has some sort of impressive maths degree, whether its statistics, maths, engineering or something else. If you can get a double degree with combining some of the above and do well you will walk into a very good accounting job.

Also not unheard of a law student or law/ commerce student getting a placement in the tax department of the big 4.

How interesting do/did you find your time at uni?

TBH it can get pretty dry at times. I didn't mind the combination of theory, practical maths and problem solving however some units tend to focus on one aspect more then the other. After a few years you see a lot of the same princples come up again and certainly makes it easier.

How are you enjoying it as a career?

Haven't started so can't really comment. Got 2 mates who are doing audit at a top tier firm and corporate finance at a mid tier firm. My friend in audit is enjoying it because its something different every few weeks with new people etc and not being in the same desk day in day out.

My friend in corporate finance is really enjoying it and it would be something I would certainly enjoy as well.

Going from the functions etc I've had everyone at the top tier firms seem incredibly friendly and you will find most employees are usually quite young as its usually mostly grads and people with 5 or less years experience which always makes the work environment more enjoyable.


Hope that helps, happy to answer any other questions.

 

[Showbag]

It was never a goal to become an accountant, more advice from careers teachers, parents and now prompting from my wife. I did 3 years at Uni doing a double major including accounting, worked in payroll/ HR for a few years then did my CPA, which is 6 subjects and took 3 years.

My first real accounting job with an ASX listed firm was certainly a shock. Especially when my new boss resigned after a month and I reported directly to the board for the next three months. Most of my job is ok, but there are key times such as budgeting/ forecasting/ dealing with auditors and you realise something you've looked at for weeks is totally wrong and it's your numbers, that's when you just hate it! Mostly looking forward to increasing the working with people side of my job and getting away from spending the whole day chained to a desk. Accounting is somewhere for me to start, hopefully I don't get stuck in it too long.

 

[ObaMartins]

Having to do business subjects AHHHHH

The sheer stupidity of both the subjects and the majority of people doing them is painful.

I love the Economics, Accounting and Finance subjects. But getting through Management and Marketing subjects can be a struggle.

 

[magic_johnson!]

My mum's an accountant.
She works a shitload and it's all very boring. The books arn't in english. MJ no compute.

She also hates CA. "they think they're better than everyone else" apparently

 

[Dingoe]

hey PK!

I completed a commerce degree with a major in accounting last year and have started work as a grad at small to mid tier firm with about 35 employees.

To be honest, actual uni life was awesome, but doing the work was a drag and quite dull. I have now been working for about half a year and love it (and the money)! Actually doing the work makes it so much more realistic and interesting than working out of books.

I will be starting my CA at the start of next year (i decided to give myself a year off study!). The firm is predominantly a chartered accounting firm but they dont mind whether anyone does CA or CPA.

I wanted to drop out of uni many times but i stuck it out and I am so happy that i completed the degree.

Anyway, hope this helps a little bit and any questions feel free to ask.

 

[AG]

I'm doing the CPA now. Main reason I chose it over the CA is my uni tute said it requires less work and time and employees aren't too fussed these days about which one you do. Maybe for the big 4 or a specific reason like frantelle has but it doesn't really matter imo.

Agree with what Dingoe said about uni being a drag and the actual work being good. Accounting/finance or architecture where the two career choices I tossed up with when I finished school, in the end I chose accounting and it was the right choice. I like working with numbers, understanding how different businesses operate, righting up financial reports, doing BAS statements etc.

 

[beez]

I love the Economics, Accounting and Finance subjects. But getting through Management and Marketing subjects can be a struggle.

I was exactly the same, was good at and enjoyed the basic accounting and economic side but hated all the marketing crap.

I'm doing the CPA now. Main reason I chose it over the CA is my uni tute said it requires less work and time and employees aren't too fussed these days about which one you do. Maybe for the big 4 or a specific reason like frantelle has but it doesn't really matter imo.

I was told the same thing when tossing up between CPA/CA. I am lazy in general and wasn't really interested in getting the best job with the best firm and earning 100k+ and having a high pressured job, so I just did the basic CPA.

Ended up getting a job that I love that has nothing to do with my CPA at all.

 

[yeah_nah]

You can work as an "accountant" with no qualifications, however if you want good money you will want to do a CA/CPA.

I work at a small accounting firm and am currently in my 2nd year at Uni.

Uni contact hours are great, only 12 hours a week. But you actually do need to put in a bit of effort to get good results (I have been scraping through with no effort at all but think I will step it up a bit this semester)
Some of the units are absolutely shit but I do enjoy some of the accounting units.

Work is a bit of a mixed bag, some days I will find the day flys and I enjoy it, others just seem to drag on.

I work in a small firm, we do mostly taxation but do a little bit of everything else as well. I can't imagine myself staying in tax once I finish all my studying..

Pay is alright. What I'm doing is basically an apprenticeship for Accounting and I'm getting $17p/h

Certainly not a job that everybody would enjoy and I guess thats why theres a large number of students who start Commerce and decide to either change course, drop out or change majors part way through their degree.

Personally I think I want to open my own business (no idea doing what at this stage) but doing Accounting and a CA is a good basis for that.

 

[yeah_nah]

I'm doing the CPA now. Main reason I chose it over the CA is my uni tute said it requires less work and time and employees aren't too fussed these days about which one you do. Maybe for the big 4 or a specific reason like frantelle has but it doesn't really matter imo.

Agree with what Dingoe said about uni being a drag and the actual work being good. Accounting/finance or architecture where the two career choices I tossed up with when I finished school, in the end I chose accounting and it was the right choice. I like working with numbers, understanding how different businesses operate, righting up financial reports, doing BAS statements etc.

Haha same here actually, I think I wouldve done architecture but iirc it was about 7 years to become an architect

 

[Caesar]

She also hates CA. "they think they're better than everyone else" apparently

It's true. We call CPAs Certified Parking Attendants.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants regards their programme more highly because it's the academic equivalent of a postgraduate diploma, whereas the CPA despite their study/exams is just a membership of a professional body. Also, the CA is recognised overseas by a number of other Commonwealth countries, including the UK Institute of Chartered Accountants (the CPA is purely domestic).

If you intend to work in public practice the CA is a lot more highly regarded, particularly by mid- and top-tier firms (in fact, if you're doing a grad traineeship they usually stipulate you have to do the CA and not the CPA). If you intend to work in the commercial field though, the CPA is completely fine. Only accountants know (or care about) the difference between the two anyway.

If you're going to work in public practice, join the Corporate Assurance division. Even other accountants think that the tax weenies are nerds.

 

[Power King]

The main thing I was curious about was whether or not you needed a specific degree in order to become an accountant. Cheers for clearing that up, carry on.

 

[larkis]

I work at a small accounting firm and am currently in my 2nd year at Uni.

How did you manage to get a job at an accounting firm? I'm not really pro-active at uni but wouldn't mind trying to start get my foot in the industry (also a 2nd year accounting student.)

 

[Caesar]

How did you manage to get a job at an accounting firm? I'm not really pro-active at uni but wouldn't mind trying to start get my foot in the industry (also a 2nd year accounting student.)

Accounting probably more than any other industry is one where it is dead easy to get a traineeship while you are still studying. Firms love to hire undergrads. In Perth you should be able to fall a job with no real trouble at all.

Check out your uni's career website, and job websites. If your uni has a career day, go there - the bigger firms will all have stalls. All the big four firms (EY, PwC, Deloitte, KPMG) will have details of their undergraduate intake programmes on their websites (they usually have bulk intakes every January and June). Bigger firms will be more competitive to get into, but there's a lot of other firms out there (and arguably some of the mid-tiers are better to work for anyway).

The other alternative is the ICAA Achievers programme. They place you in a firm for a few weeks of paid work experience in the uni holidays. If you're halfway decent you'll be offered a job at the end.

The one downside is that if you want to work, it generally means studying parttime. Most job offers you get will be fulltime work, which is 38hrs a week plus overtime in busy periods. Depending on the firm you will get a couple of weeks exam leave a year, plus a few hours a week off to attend lectures when uni is in session. However, expect to be taking most of your classes in the evening, and sacrificing your marks a bit. If you're not fussed about getting Ds or better in everything then it's workable take 3 subjects a semester and still get through your degree in 4 years.

If you want to keep fulltime uni, some smaller firms may be interested in hiring you for a couple of days a week, but that's a lot harder to find. Bottom line is the work is there if you want it, you just have to be aware that working fulltime and studying parttime is not really a picnic - especially if you don't live at home.

It puts you in a great position when you graduate though - experience is priceless. When I was in accounting I'd prefer to have a 19yo trainee with a year's experience under his belt than a graduate fresh out of university any day.

 

[ants79]

All this debate about CPA vs CA and nobody has mentioned the NIA.

 

[WALL-e]

All money making organisations that don't offer massive amounts in value to the accountant.

 

[larkis]

Accounting probably more than any other industry is one where it is dead easy to get a traineeship while you are still studying. Firms love to hire undergrads. In Perth you should be able to fall a job with no real trouble at all.

Check out your uni's career website, and job websites. If your uni has a career day, go there - the bigger firms will all have stalls. All the big four firms (EY, PwC, Deloitte, KPMG) will have details of their undergraduate intake programmes on their websites (they usually have bulk intakes every January and June). Bigger firms will be more competitive to get into, but there's a lot of other firms out there (and arguably some of the mid-tiers are better to work for anyway).

The other alternative is the ICAA Achievers programme. They place you in a firm for a few weeks of paid work experience in the uni holidays. If you're halfway decent you'll be offered a job at the end.

The one downside is that if you want to work, it generally means studying parttime. Most job offers you get will be fulltime work, which is 38hrs a week plus overtime in busy periods. Depending on the firm you will get a couple of weeks exam leave a year, plus a few hours a week off to attend lectures when uni is in session. However, expect to be taking most of your classes in the evening, and sacrificing your marks a bit. If you're not fussed about getting Ds or better in everything then it's workable take 3 subjects a semester and still get through your degree in 4 years.

If you want to keep fulltime uni, some smaller firms may be interested in hiring you for a couple of days a week, but that's a lot harder to find. Bottom line is the work is there if you want it, you just have to be aware that working fulltime and studying parttime is not really a picnic - especially if you don't live at home.

It puts you in a great position when you graduate though - experience is priceless. When I was in accounting I'd prefer to have a 19yo trainee with a year's experience under his belt than a graduate fresh out of university any day.

Really appreciate this information.

In regards to my own personal situation - I've never had a job, part time or causal (worked a few days to help with archiving/ administration) at my Mother's work hence I just want to get some experience.

In regards to working full time and studying during the weekends and nights - it's certainly possible but it would be a bit of a culture shock. I've done night classes before for the experience and convenience of turning three or four days of uni into two.

In regards to marks, my policy has always been to just insure I pass. I know firms care about your marks, however what's more noticeable is the intangibles that you can bring to the firm such as communication skills (which I need to work on anyway and as racist as it sounds, it's an advantage being Australian), work ethic and a passion for improving yourself. Just small things like that could put me in front of other people.

I have a free day off tomorrow and I'll have a look at all the information above and talk it over with my parents and friends and see what they think because the way university is going, I'm not feeling confident with it at all. it's just all the report making (just the huge variety and the amount of ways they mark you down) and my finance units (never had a strong foundation of finance before doing the units which has lead to huge gaps of knowledge).

 

[Axcellence]

Not worth it...

Better off being an engineer / salesman (preferably a property agent).

Unless of course, you enjoy accounting and want to open an accounting firm (in that case, check with a psychiatrist first).

 

[yeah_nah]

How did you manage to get a job at an accounting firm? I'm not really pro-active at uni but wouldn't mind trying to start get my foot in the industry (also a 2nd year accounting student.)

One of the partners at the firm use to go to the same high school as I went to, they contacted my school and told our accounting teacher he was looking to hire a year 12 student who was looking to do commerce at University.

I was one of about 10 who applied for it and after the interview got the job.

I got pretty lucky really as the job pretty much found me

Its quite hard to find a job as a student because not a lot of firms would want to hire you because of the hours you're at uni and training you up etc. The easiest way is if you have contacts. ie parents friends who own a firm, friends who work at a firm or something like that. I know my work doesn't really advertise these sorts positions but since I started 2 years ago we have hired 2 more people who are still at uni.

 

[Caesar]

In regards to marks, my policy has always been to just insure I pass. I know firms care about your marks, however what's more noticeable is the intangibles that you can bring to the firm such as communication skills (which I need to work on anyway and as racist as it sounds, it's an advantage being Australian), work ethic and a passion for improving yourself. Just small things like that could put me in front of other people.

Definitely. Big firms get a bit picky over academic credentials during the interview process (because they can afford to be) but for everybody they're a secondary consideration. It's a customer service business - if you present well, communicate well, and are personable then that's far more important.

Once you're in, they really don't care what you get as long as you pass everything.

I have a free day off tomorrow and I'll have a look at all the information above and talk it over with my parents and friends and see what they think because the way university is going, I'm not feeling confident with it at all. it's just all the report making (just the huge variety and the amount of ways they mark you down) and my finance units (never had a strong foundation of finance before doing the units which has lead to huge gaps of knowledge).

It's a practical profession. You will learn more about accounting & business in your first 12 months of work than you do in 3 years of university. And I will echo what others have said - the job is infinitely more interesting than the theory. Personally, I doubt I would have made it through my degree if I hadn't been working.

It's a big decision, and it's bloody hard work - particularly for someone who is used to the uni lifestyle. But the rewards are there - when I left my last job, a grad would typically need 2 years experience and his CA before he started earning more than the most experienced trainees (who were still at uni).

If you're interested but unsure, I'd recommend contacting the ICAA and finding out about their Achievers programme. Nothing better than spending a couple of weeks in a firm, talking to the other undergrads, seeing the work they do, and figuring out if the lifestyle interests you.

Not worth it...

Better off being an engineer / salesman (preferably a property agent).

Unless of course, you enjoy accounting and want to open an accounting firm (in that case, check with a psychiatrist first).

There is no way in hell I would ever be a property agent. Everybody hates you, your weekends aren't your own, and there's the constant stress of being on commission. I really enjoy working with clients, but I think you'd really have to be good at/love sales in order to enjoy that job.

Engineering... well it depends what you're after. Engineering is a technical profession, and you can be an engineer your whole life doing engineering work and continue to rise in your profession and make a lot of money. Accounting, the technical side is a means to an end - either owning your own business in public practice, or rising to senior management in commercial. A ridiculous proportion of the executive management of ASX 100 companies started out in accounting.

You can choose a technical career path if you like, and become an expert on taxation or corporate reporting or whatever. But for the majority of accountants, almost as soon as you become a CA you start to do less and less hands-on accounting and the job becomes more and more about project management, staff management, and client service.

 

[r dub 19]

I don't do accounting... but anyway

As caesar briefly touched on, I think it is better to start at a mid tier firm (william buck/bdo etc) while you are at uni and then apply for a graduate position at the big companies(rio/bhp/mqg etc). My view is that going to work for one of the big 4 means you will have a lot more competiton to "climb the ladder". Most people I have spoke to say working for the big 4 isn't all it's made up to be as you do quiet alot of work for little pay. My friend started working at a midtier firm in his second year and now works for a big resource company as a graduate on 74k a year. They also are paying for his CPA.

 

[frantelle]

Just hand in your resume's to mid and lower tier firms, with a cover letter explaining your situation and what your looking for. I got a few offers from mid teir firms for 1.5 - 2.5days work per week which would easily allow anyone doing straight commerce to continue full time study. If your looking for something that has a bit of flexibility I wouldn't bother looking into the big 4 unless you know someone there as they can be really picky and are just looking for an excuse to cross someones name off the list.

If you can try and find a friend/family member who owns there own business and ask if you can help them doing the bookkeeping BAS etc. I had done a few years of this sort of stuff at my job and its something that really helped get me into an interview for every job I applied for. They were always interested and pleased that I had done some of the mindnumbing sort of work before as it was similar to the sort of work you would be expected to do (depends on size of the organisation and the department).

 

[frantelle]

My view is that going to work for one of the big 4 means you will have a lot more competiton to "climb the ladder". Most people I have spoke to say working for the big 4 isn't all it's made up to be as you do quiet alot of work for little pay.

This is certainly the case if you decide to stay at a big 4 firm. However you will find something ridiculous like 80% of a graduate intake will be gone after 4 years. Working in a big 4 opens millions of doors and eventhough its a bit of a bad start (usually average pay and longer hours) it pays off in the long run.

Really depends on what your looking for as to where you want to start and which sort of path you want to take. My situation is pre-determined basically and this is the best path for me, but considering the work and hours its certainly not for everyone.

 

[Opportunity Cost]

If you get a chance to work full time and do your uni part time I reccommend you definately take it. I'm in my second year of uni and did exactly that. I work in State government (Audit) and do two units a semester.

Business is a relatively easy degree so I don't really do any study other than when is needed for tests and assignments. If this wasn't the case I really think I would have struggled because after a long day at work I can think of nothing worse than studying.

It works well for me, when I have a lecture or tute, I just leave work and head down to uni for it (works out at about 7 hours a week). When it comes to exams, I get around two weeks off to study (paid).

The pay is decent at the moment (around 40k) considering I only work around 30 hours a week because of uni. When I graduate, if I chose to stay where I am, I skip the 'graduate' level straight away (would allready be getting payed more than a graduate anyway).

I have a couple of mates doing the same at an accounting firm (connected to the Big 4) and they have it a lot harder than I do. They get less time during the week to go to classes and also get payed a lot less. When I started I think I was on 11k more a year (around 200 a week).

 

[yeah_nah]

Sorry trigg but I can't see why anyone should do it part time unless they have to (money is the only reason I can see)

Doing this degree part time means 6 years at uni.
Assuming 2 people start their careers at the same time, a full time student could have completed their CA in the time the part time student graduates from university.