AFL overtaking NRL in QLD

[The_Wookie]

I think the issue is who is the "reported over 1,000 at docklands hq" to the extent that is true.

I am sure there are efficiencies to be had but I am also sure there is far less "fat" than you a Dermie think

bear in mind the AFL operates AFL Victoria, AFL/W and VFL/W Umpires, timekeepers and scorekeepers, the Victorian Under 18s competitions (boys and girls), as well as the AFL and AFLW, the VFL and VFLW - and if that 1,000 includes Marvel Stadium staff.....

 

[Bjo187]

bear in mind the AFL operates AFL Victoria, AFL/W and VFL/W Umpires, timekeepers and scorekeepers, the Victorian Under 18s competitions (boys and girls), as well as the AFL and AFLW, the VFL and VFLW - and if that 1,000 includes Marvel Stadium staff.....

Most of those would sit under the 1000 odd casual employees, that are in addition to the 1000 + full time employees in the docklands office and around Australia I believe. Also, I thought all the catering at marvel was outsourced to a contractor.

Looking at the financial report the cost of expenses at AFL house has gone from $200 mill in 2014 to now $400 mill per year. So the percentage on expenses to revenue (considering the revenue is truly in the 900 mill mark) shows the percentage of expenses to revenue has increased a decent amount.

This is typical in not for profit organisations and government, they just keep hiring coz the bottom line isn't as important.

 

[Walshawk]

It would be interesting if a brand spanking new stadium gets built (Vic Park) for the Olympics, whether a second team in Brisbane might be worthwhile, simply to take advantage of the fact that the interest and demand in sports events in the stadium will be at an all-time high, and to try and prevent NRL getting some mileage out of the stadium too.

The Sydney Olympic stadium had a lot of issues, but the glow of it being the Olympic stadium bumped up some of the crowds in the early years: https://afltables.com/afl/venues/stadium_australia_gm.html

If you get a stadium with 60% higher capacity, you want it filled. The Lions will only fill it for a few games in seasons where that are near the top of the ladder. Any second team would struggle to pull 15k. If Brisbane do NOT get a new stadium, and are stuck with the 36k Gabba, that is actually more reason to introduce a second team.

 

[RedV3x]

If you get a stadium with 60% higher capacity,

A 60k capacity stadium is a really good future size. A bit small for the Olympics but a good size for the future that should meet the varied demands of a world class stadium.

The Lions will only fill it for a few games in seasons where that anre near the top of the ladder.

It will be pretty much like the Perth Stadium and the situation in Perth.

Any second team would struggle to pull 15k.

What Perth found is that the new stadium really benefited Fremantle in their support

If Brisbane do NOT get a new stadium, and are stuck with the 36k Gabba, that is actually more reason to introduce a second team.

North Brisbane playing out of a new stadium would be definitely more attractive than a tired old Gabba.
Why are you even suggesting such a situation.
Brisbane needs a new stadium for the Olympics,
The Gabba needs a replacement.
The cost effective solution is obvious.

 

[The_Wookie]

Looking at the financial report the cost of expenses at AFL house has gone from $200 mill in 2014 to now $400 mill per year. So the percentage on expenses to revenue (considering the revenue is truly in the 900 mill mark) shows the percentage of expenses to revenue has increased a decent amount.

Personnel Expenses are less of a percentage of the expenses now than they were in 2014.




AFL expenses

 

[GC2015]

The Dolphins were in their second season this year and spent the entire year in the 8 and just had to win the last game of the season to make it. They were in the 8 much of the first season as well for that matter.

I think people got sucked in by the novelty factor in the first season....the big test will be if they have a couple of poor seasons

They are far more likely end up another Titans than anything and have no chance of being a big club unless they have a Storm like couple of decades.

I'd agree with that. Unfortunately for the Dolphins, they don't appear to have gotten off to the fairytale start that's probably required to become a big club in the future. Now they'll be without their biggest marketing tool in Wayne Bennett and unless the on field results improve, they are probably going to fall into irrelevancy like you've suggested.

The Lions took a big hit from the Suns coming on board despite them being a distinctively different city. It would be nuts to add another team in Brisbane. Just let the Lions become another super club if they grow "too big". SEQ will still have the same number of teams as Perth.

The NRL's problem is that Brisbane is one of only two cities the sport is dominant so having one team was problematic....but the horse had bolted by the time they added a second in.

I've seen people suggest the Lions took this supposedly big hit when the Suns entered the league. Context/data is important when discussing a topic like this and 2010 was a very destructive year for the Lions because they recruited Fevola straight after making it back into the finals for the first time since 2004 and it all went downfill very quickly for the Lions in that 2010 season when they started like a house on fire and ended up finishing the year in 13th place.

Then the Lions had an even worse year in 2011 by only winning 4 games and finishing 15th on the ladder. They went from 26k members in 2010 to 22k members in 2011 when the Suns entered the league. We're talking about a decrease of 4k members over a 12-24 month period that was absolutely disasterous for the Lions. Sure, there may have been some Brisbane members who drifted towards the newly established Suns during that time, but there's no doubt that the Lions inflicted a fair bit of harm on themselves in those years. With all that in mind, I think it's unfair to suggest that the Lions took this huge hit purely because the Suns entered the league without recognising everything else that was going on/contributing at the time. I don't even think a 4k decrease in members is that big of a hit, to be honest.

Anyway, would the AFL be better off having one massive club in a reasonably large city that's traditionally dominated by another sport or would following the two-team per city model that we've seen in every other major city of Australia be the best way to grow the game in Brisbane/Queensland? I think you could make a very strong argument that, right now, it's better to have the Lions doing it on their own by continuing their momentum and just growing their fanbase to a ridiculously strong level. If we get to the point where the Lions legitimately have close to 100k members then you probably have to seriously consider starting a second AFL team in Brisbane, but that's still at least a few years away.

So you think the NRL should have added a second team to the Brisbane market years ago when the Lions first started showing good signs around 2019?

 

[dave10]

So we can almost certainly lock in a GABBA rebuild for the Olympics. I assume a ~50,000 seater probably on the cards. Aside from local congestion and domestic traffic flows issues, it will mean a state of the art AFL stadium for the Lions is delivered which is great for QLD football.

Downside is that the stadium will likely be off limits for two years meaning the Lions will need to find alternative home ground arrangements. This is a pity given now’s the time for the Lions to be capitalising on their success and growing the game and their fanbase.

It does pose opportunities however. It could mean the Lions / AFL use this opportunity to take their club around QLD a bit and showcase the game and club to their wider fans. Thinking obviously the Gold Coast, possibly Cairns (?)…… Who knows.

It’s a situation that will impact the club considerably but at same time if minds are positive to possibilities, this could present a silver lining that is a one off opportunity.

 

[Bjo187]

Personnel Expenses are less of a percentage of the expenses now than they were in 2014.

View attachment 2181106


AFL expenses

View attachment 2181099

I get in 2014 - that 227 of 528 is 42.9 percent, where as in 2023 - 441 of 960 is 45.9 percent, meaning roughly a 3 percent increase on employee spend (unless I'm calculating it wrong). This is strange if they didn't take the opportunity during covid to trim some fat like other sporting organisations did (never waste a good crisis) and is the problem with picking an in house nice guy as the new ceo, he didn't have the willingness to restructure.

Another issue during this time is, player salary percentage of revenue is also going up for the men (plus chuck in the new expense of the women on top of that). So the cost of running the business as a whole, is more now than ever.

So we can almost certainly lock in a GABBA rebuild for the Olympics. I assume a ~50,000 seater probably on the cards. Aside from local congestion and domestic traffic flows issues, it will mean a state of the art AFL stadium for the Lions is delivered which is great for QLD football.

Downside is that the stadium will likely be off limits for two years meaning the Lions will need to find alternative home ground arrangements. This is a pity given now’s the time for the Lions to be capitalising on their success and growing the game and their fanbase.

It does pose opportunities however. It could mean the Lions / AFL use this opportunity to take their club around QLD a bit and showcase the game and club to their wider fans. Thinking obviously the Gold Coast, possibly Cairns (?)…… Who knows.

It’s a situation that will impact the club considerably but at same time if minds are positive to possibilities, this could present a silver lining that is a one off opportunity.

Where are you hearing this? That would be terrible for the lions and not only 2 years, but more like 4 years out of their market in Brisbane. I have found it strange liberal politicians are continually commenting on the stadium pre review, why not let the review do it's job?

I did hear from someone they'd build the new gabba on top on the new train station across the road, as they need to keep the current gabba for cricket at the Olympics. Overall though kicked out of your home city for 4 years? I'd take no new stadium at all if that was the offer, it would be incredibly damaging to the club.

 

[RedV3x]

I'd take no new stadium at all if that was the offer, it would be incredibly damaging to the club.

in the history of Australian Football this could be the worst setback along with the banning, world wars, Covid and government decisions.
It's incredibly frustrating that the best and most effective, sensible and long term option would be a boost to AFL at a time when the NRL is demanding over a $1 billion just for NRL teams.

 

[Walshawk]

So we can almost certainly lock in a GABBA rebuild for the Olympics. I assume a ~50,000 seater probably on the cards. Aside from local congestion and domestic traffic flows issues, it will mean a state of the art AFL stadium for the Lions is delivered which is great for QLD football.

Downside is that the stadium will likely be off limits for two years meaning the Lions will need to find alternative home ground arrangements. This is a pity given now’s the time for the Lions to be capitalising on their success and growing the game and their fanbase.

It does pose opportunities however. It could mean the Lions / AFL use this opportunity to take their club around QLD a bit and showcase the game and club to their wider fans. Thinking obviously the Gold Coast, possibly Cairns (?)…… Who knows.

It’s a situation that will impact the club considerably but at same time if minds are positive to possibilities, this could present a silver lining that is a one off opportunity.

If they rebuild the Gabba (I can’t see iIt happening), it will be around four seasons with no stadium. But if there is less opportunity for Brisbanites to attend each match, the last thing you would want to do it take games away to other places. It would decimate the club’s membership and fan base.

Nobody knows what the outcome of the 100 day review will be. Let’s hold fire until an announcement is made.

 

[RedV3x]

Let’s hold fire until an announcement is made.

Or, let's make as much noise as possible so they make the sensible decision.

 

[dave10]

If they rebuild the Gabba (I can’t see iIt happening), it will be around four seasons with no stadium. But if there is less opportunity for Brisbanites to attend each match, the last thing you would want to do it take games away to other places. It would decimate the club’s membership and fan base.

Nobody knows what the outcome of the 100 day review will be. Let’s hold fire until an announcement is made.

It was announced on 9 news Brisbane last night, Gabba rebuild is the preferred option….,

 

[Fire]

It was announced on 9 news Brisbane last night, Gabba rebuild is the preferred option….,

I can find nothing that would confirm this...

 

[dave10]

I can find nothing that would confirm this...

Go back and watch 9 news QLD, aired at 6pm last night… It was breaking news at the top of their bulletin.

Edit: For your information.

 

[Bjo187]

I just saw this, John leaguie Coates popped up once again a few months ago sticking the boots into the afl. He got his way with Miles last time, Quirk who ran the review said he was relentlessly trying to ensure no new oval stadium was built. Hopefully the new committee don't give him a second of attention, the guy is a complete moron with his own agendas.

 

[RedV3x]

I just saw this, John leaguie Coates popped up once again

John Coates is all for sports except successful professional sports that could inspire kids to play those sports and thus produce many more professional sports people.

I always wondered why Brisbane was put forward as the Olympic games city especially now as they don't seem that interested in doing it properly.
Did anyone mention that Perth has THE Stadium already built and the transport infrastructure - much better option.

 

[Walshawk]

It was announced on 9 news Brisbane last night, Gabba rebuild is the preferred option….,

Nothing was announced. It was just a TV headline to grab attention. The 100 day review is five days in. 95 to go.

 

[dave10]

Nothing was announced. It was just a TV headline to grab attention. The 100 day review is five days in. 95 to go.

I can almost certainly guarantee it will be the Gabba. The Premier has categorically said no new stadium. He doesn’t want QSAC. That leaves……… The Gabba.

 

[The Educator]

I'd agree with that. Unfortunately for the Dolphins, they don't appear to have gotten off to the fairytale start that's probably required to become a big club in the future. Now they'll be without their biggest marketing tool in Wayne Bennett and unless the on field results improve, they are probably going to fall into irrelevancy like you've suggested.


I've seen people suggest the Lions took this supposedly big hit when the Suns entered the league. Context/data is important when discussing a topic like this and 2010 was a very destructive year for the Lions because they recruited Fevola straight after making it back into the finals for the first time since 2004 and it all went downfill very quickly for the Lions in that 2010 season when they started like a house on fire and ended up finishing the year in 13th place.

Then the Lions had an even worse year in 2011 by only winning 4 games and finishing 15th on the ladder. They went from 26k members in 2010 to 22k members in 2011 when the Suns entered the league. We're talking about a decrease of 4k members over a 12-24 month period that was absolutely disasterous for the Lions. Sure, there may have been some Brisbane members who drifted towards the newly established Suns during that time, but there's no doubt that the Lions inflicted a fair bit of harm on themselves in those years. With all that in mind, I think it's unfair to suggest that the Lions took this huge hit purely because the Suns entered the league without recognising everything else that was going on/contributing at the time. I don't even think a 4k decrease in members is that big of a hit, to be honest.

Agree with that. From a distance, the Lions collapsing in a heap would have done most the heavy lifting but I have heard of a degree of cannibalising

Anyway, would the AFL be better off having one massive club in a reasonably large city that's traditionally dominated by another sport or would following the two-team per city model that we've seen in every other major city of Australia be the best way to grow the game in Brisbane/Queensland? I think you could make a very strong argument that, right now, it's better to have the Lions doing it on their own by continuing their momentum and just growing their fanbase to a ridiculously strong level. If we get to the point where the Lions legitimately have close to 100k members then you probably have to seriously consider starting a second AFL team in Brisbane, but that's still at least a few years away.

yeah I just don't think circumstances are set up for a second Brisbane club like other cities. Both SA and WA were traditional Aus Football states - the former had a dominant club and storied history and the latter a distinct area and natural geographic rivalry - and both introduced second clubs within a decade of the first. Both of these clubs had significant growing pains in (AFL) infancy

Sydney has distinct regional divide and is a significantly bigger city that can't be well serviced by the existing teams centre of gravity. ......it can be built on over time but as we can see, it is going to be a long haul

.the problem with adding a second team to brisbane is it is either going to be to early or too late if you get what I mean. Too early and it undermines the Lions and too late and it there is no space left to grow.

Best bet is just to back the Lions in to keep growing with the upside risk of ending up a giant.

I reckon two team town set ups with genuine balanced rivalry are the most self reinforcing set ups. Parochial one team towns work well too but just have the bottoming out risk (i.e. general interest lost because of sustained poor performance.

Brisbane has the gold coast as a psuedo city derby....best to just lean in to that

So you think the NRL should have added a second team to the Brisbane market years ago when the Lions first started showing good signs around 2019?

They probably missed the boat in the late 90s with the crushers.....once they waited too long it was probably doomed.

I don't think it would have significantly mattered to the Lions though. More that, when you only have two heartland metros to start with, you want more than 1 substantial club. And you are very unlikely to get a genuine balanced rivalry with the Broncos now (i.e like SA and WA have) unless there is long term sustained success for the Dolphins. In the long run, I doubt the Dolphins will ever be as big as the Sharks even.

 

[The Educator]

I just saw this, John leaguie Coates popped up once again a few months ago sticking the boots into the afl. He got his way with Miles last time, Quirk who ran the review said he was relentlessly trying to ensure no new oval stadium was built. Hopefully the new committee don't give him a second of attention, the guy is a complete moron with his own agendas.

View attachment 2181683
View attachment 2181684

One of the dumber things I have heard.

Spend $2 billion on a temporary stadium with no legacy is better value for money for the host city than building a new stadium for 70% more that meets a critical need because it will benefit two other sports (i.e provides the host city an actual legacy).

It is hard to imagine that an olympic city has ever had a situation where hosting an olympics lined up so perfectly with imminent need for a new oval stadium. .....and instead the current placeholder is to build a $2B temporary one

 

[RedV3x]

One of the dumber things I have heard.

I think it's time for some people to grow up.
So many people exposing the benefits of sports, world sports, supporting Australia at sports, supporting introduced sports, supporting Australia at various world cups for introduced sports but mention AFL might indirectly benefit, then we cannot have a highly popular Australian sport becoming more popular. AFL might takeover Australia which would somehow be demonstratively bad unlike soccer or NRL taking over Australia which would thrust us into global mediocrity
.

 

[Walshawk]

I can almost certainly guarantee it will be the Gabba. The Premier has categorically said no new stadium. He doesn’t want QSAC. That leaves……… The Gabba.

Are you seriously taking a politician at his word? He also said that the 100 review would not even consider new stadiums. Yet it will. He also previously opposed the Gabba rebuild.

If the review recommends something other than the Gabba, they will go with that. He can simply blame the review outcome for any turnaround. He has three years and 11 months remaining as Premier. His pre-election words will be long forgotten by late 2028.

 

[The Educator]

Are you seriously taking a politician at his word? He also said that the 100 review would not even consider new stadiums. Yet it will. He also previously opposed the Gabba rebuild.

If the review recommends something other than the Gabba, they will go with that. He can simply blame the review outcome for any turnaround. He has three years and 11 months remaining as Premier. His pre-election words will be long forgotten by late 2028.

It is not like he will have the one newspaper in town harping on about the broken promise either

 

[Bjo187]

Actually the courier mail are big advocates of a new and proper stadium, they've been pushing it hard for a while which is a surprise.

 

[dave10]

Are you seriously taking a politician at his word? He also said that the 100 review would not even consider new stadiums. Yet it will. He also previously opposed the Gabba rebuild.

If the review recommends something other than the Gabba, they will go with that. He can simply blame the review outcome for any turnaround. He has three years and 11 months remaining as Premier. His pre-election words will be long forgotten by late 2028.

Ok, let’s see. I bet it’s the Gabba.