Ages

[ImperialPurple]

Just following on from something rgauci posted in another thread regarding players ages. Below is a list of the ages of our players at 30th Sept, 2007 (ie the end of this coming season). The ones with the asterisks are the ones out of contract this year.

Yes, we have a "fairly old" list as others often like to remind us, but take out Macca, Cookie and Parker at the end of 2007, and replace them with 3 x 18 year olds in the national draft and that average comes down.

However, 28/44 of our players are in the 20 - 26 range, and could reasonable expect to be still playing together in 5 years time (natural attrition aside). Add in another 4-5 years from JCarr, Grover and Blackie, and that's a 31/44 core of players who can continue playing together for the next 4-5 seasons.

There's also 19/44 who are 23 and under, with more to come at the end of the year with the retirements (probable) of Parker, Cookie, Macca + delisting of probably another 3-4 players. We added some good youngsters last year, and I would expect them to add another batch again this year keeping the list turning over quite nicely.

Also, I don't think the depth of the list will be compromised terribly, as the players we lose via retirement can and will be replaced by guys on the list who have done their apprenticeships and development as WAFL / fringe players.



<20

Clayton Collard - 18
Garrick Ibbotson* - 19
Calib Mourish - 19
Brock O'Brien - 19
Chris Smith (r) - 19


20 - 23

Marcus Drum* - 20
Robert Warnock* - 20
Benet Copping (r) - 20
Ryley Dunn - 21
Andrew Foster (r) - 22
Adam Campbell* - 22
Paul Duffield - 22
Michael Johnson - 22
David Mundy - 22
Ryan Murphy - 22
Byron Schammer* - 22
Ryan Crowley* - 23
Andrew Browne* - 23
Darren Rumble (r) - 23


24 - 26

Steven Dodd - 24
Daniel Gilmore* - 24
Brett Peake* - 24
Aaron Sandilands* - 24
Luke McPharlin* - 25
Matthew Pavlich* - 25
Scott Thornton - 25
Luke Webster* - 25
Robert Haddrill* - 26
Paul Hasleby* - 26
Roger Hayden* - 26
Des Headland* - 26
Justin Longmuir - 26
Chris Tarrant - 26


27 - 29

Josh Carr* - 27
Antoni Grover* - 27
Dean Solomon - 27
Heath Black* - 28
Matthew Carr* - 28
James Walker* - 28


30+

Jeff Farmer* - 30
Peter Bell - 31
Shaun McManus* - 31
Troy Cook* - 31
Shane Parker* - 34



Anyway - food for thought.

 

[Cheetah]

Well done IP, that would have taken a while?

Of the 20-23 age group, I believe 9 on the list will go on to play a significant amount of games for our club. I am not saying the others won't have an impact but just that I have not seen enough of them one way or the other to comment.

From the recruiting departments point of view if 3 of the 5 in the under 20 bracket when on to become 50 plus game players for the club, you would consider it a great return. For some inexplicable reason I believe we will get a better return than this with Mourish and Smith the dark horses.

We have again recruited well to the rookie list and although I have not seen him play I like what I've heard about Rumble. I think Andrew Foster is also a very good pick up and the Rookie listings will again bear fruit for the club as they have done in the past.

 

[sabre_ac]

24 to 30 are the peak ability periods.
The majority of our main contributers are in that range...Just what you would expect from a side challenging for the flag this year.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Exactly sabre.

I remember watching the 2004 GF and being amazed at how "old" the Port and Brissie players were in comparison to our guys. In 2005/6 the weagles were a bit of an aberration - and that will obviously hold them in good stead to remain at the top of their game for the next 5 or so years also - but Sydney are no spring chickens.

If you think back to 2003 - Pav was 21, Hase 22, McPharlin 21, JLo 22, Des 22, Sandi 20, Schammer 18, Hayden 22, Haddrill 22. The expectation on them, and disappointment in the "failures" of 2004/5 were huge, but these guys were still young fellas. They're not any more. If you take it a step further, Crowley was a no-one, Dodd was still a rookie, Mundy, Johnson, Peake, Murphy were not even on the list... with an extra 4 years in age and 50-100 games more under each of their belts, we are very well placed not only in 2007, but well beyond.

 

[dominguez]

Not many midfielders in there between 18 and 22, but apart from that we look to have a list capable of doing well for the next 4-5 years.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Jut following up from what I saw at training dom, these guys aged 18-22 were training with the mids today:

Ibbotson
Drum
Dunn
Duffield
Johnson

with Schammer missing, and I'm assuming Andrew Foster is a midfielder. There's Clayton Collard and Chris Smith also. That's 8 guys, from whom you'd hope at least a couple have what it takes.

 

[dominguez]

Jut following up from what I saw at training dom, these guys aged 18-22 were training with the mids today:

Ibbotson
Drum
Dunn
Duffield
Johnson

with Schammer missing, and I'm assuming Andrew Foster is a midfielder. There's Clayton Collard and Chris Smith also. That's 8 guys, from whom you'd hope at least a couple have what it takes.

There certainly is some talent among the names you mentioned IP, but they are all guys who started from other positions who we are trying to turn into midfielders (which is probably an indication that the coaching staff think we need to find some midfielders).

When I say midfielders I mean the likes of Hasleby/JCarr/Bell, midfielders who might be able to play in other positions, not guys who can play in other positions but might become midfielders. When you think of the elite midfielders in the comp (Judd, West, Goodes, Black, Kerr etc) they have always been midfielders.

Ibbotson seems a long way away, but from memory plays mostly across half back.
Drum looks best suited at half forward or half back.
Dunn wouldn't have played on ball since TAC cup in 2003.
Duffield is a possibility, he probably won't play for Freo early in the year so hopefully souths will expose him to the midfield as much as possible.
Johnson- I can't see it happening, possibly as an outside receiving wingman, but I don' think he will ever be a good clearance player.
Schammer lacks core strength, he is pushed off the ball too easily. That could improve though.
Foster I'm pretty sure is a midfielder, as an established player I look forward to catching a sharks game to see how he goes.
Collard to me is the air apparent to the Wiz. I have only seen him play a half, but not sure he has the endurance to play extended periods on the ball. If he could turn into a midfielder with a similar style to McLeod/Burgoyne we are in for some exciting times.
IIRC Smith is a midfielder who played a role similar to Medhurst at the under 18's, hopefully he gets plenty of time in the middle at wafl level.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Yeah I agree. I hope they stack this year's draft with mids, we have a fair few KPP's stock-piled.... but that's what we've been saying for a few years now.

 

[Ripper]

I reckon you are not thinking aggressively enough, Dom.


If Johnno cut's a swathe through the midfield like He does out of defence , He will be THE weapon.

He can tackle, mark , and rarely gets beaten one on one even at ground level and seems to be able to glide away form congestion effortlessly.

I would not like to be the opposition Coach trying to match up on him.

Only Instead of those booming accurate kicks going to wing-HF , they will be going straight down Pav , Taz , Potato's throats.

 

[dominguez]

Yeah I agree. I hope they stack this year's draft with mids, we have a fair few KPP's stock-piled.... but that's what we've been saying for a few years now.

We would have to have the most key position depth in the comp. Campbell is going to have to be in sandover form to get a run. Drum, Mundy and Johnson have all been thrown up as midfield options, at other clubs they would be groomed for CHB.

Polak's betrayal looks to be a good thing, especially with Warnock's weight gain.

 

[dominguez]

I reckon you are not thinking aggressively enough, Dom.


If Johnno cut's a swathe through the midfield like He does out of defence , He will be THE weapon.

He can tackle, mark , and rarely gets beaten one on one even at ground level and seems to be able to glide away form congestion effortlessly.

I would not like to be the opposition Coach trying to match up on him.

Only Instead of those booming accurate kicks going to wing-HF , they will be going straight down Pav , Taz , Potato's throats.

Get off my case Ripper, IP is on my side!



Seriously though, does he have the pace off the mark to be a midfielder, I doubt it. Aslong as we are winning I am happy for them to experiment, but flirting with a players form can be dangerous. Schammer, Croad, Farmer, Polak, McPharlin have all failed when given new roles, unless you are really dominating a position it can be hard to learn a totally new one.

I'd like to see him as a loose defender coming off the back of the square to receive a handball from Josh/Hase, as opposed to starting along side them in the square. Black as a loose man inside defensive 50, Johnson roaming outside defensive 50. You know it sounds good!

 

[ImperialPurple]

Get off my case Ripper, IP is on my side!



Seriously though, does he have the pace off the mark to be a midfielder, I doubt it. Aslong as we are winning I am happy for them to experiment, but flirting with a players form can be dangerous. Schammer, Croad, Farmer, Polak, McPharlin have all failed when given new roles, unless you are really dominating a position it can be hard to learn a totally new one.

I'd like to see him as a loose defender coming off the back of the square to receive a handball from Josh/Hase, as opposed to starting along side them in the square. Black as a loose man inside defensive 50, Johnson roaming outside defensive 50. You know it sounds good!

Well yeah - but I can also see where ripper is coming from and I must say it does sound exciting...

(Excuse me while I remove the splinters from my bum... )

 

[Ripper]

Get off my case Ripper, IP is on my side!



Seriously though, does he have the pace off the mark to be a midfielder, I doubt it. Aslong as we are winning I am happy for them to experiment, but flirting with a players form can be dangerous. Schammer, Croad, Farmer, Polak, McPharlin have all failed when given new roles, unless you are really dominating a position it can be hard to learn a totally new one.

I'd like to see him as a loose defender coming off the back of the square to receive a handball from Josh/Hase, as opposed to starting along side them in the square. Black as a loose man inside defensive 50, Johnson roaming outside defensive 50. You know it sounds good!

The boy is good enough to play anywhere.
Only Judd , Kerr & Buckley have ever come R/U in a F&B at around 40 games and they were not in a PF quality side.

Get the PF tape out and have a look at Johnno the mainly midfielder in the 3rd Qtr where we dominated play.

 

[theGav56]

Dom, Bell is the only one of our "specialist" midfielders that we are in need of finding a replacement for in the near future, and Scahmmer is the heir apparent. At 21 he may get pushed off the ball a bit, but that will/is changing. Haze and J Carr will be fine for another 5 years you would think, barring injury. I also thought that Dunn was a specialist mid, and while he may not have been played in that position at WAFL, isn't your point about where they naturally play and have learned their game? Good cover for Hasleby. I actually think we are as well positioned to cover our midfield guns as we have ever been.

 

[dominguez]

Get the PF tape out and have a look at Johnno the mainly midfielder in the 3rd Qtr where we dominated play.

Will do jackaroo.

 

[Ripper]

Will do jackaroo.

 

[dominguez]

Dom, Bell is the only one of our "specialist" midfielders that we are in need of finding a replacement for in the near future, and Scahmmer is the heir apparent. At 21 he may get pushed off the ball a bit, but that will/is changing. Haze and J Carr will be fine for another 5 years you would think, barring injury. I also thought that Dunn was a specialist mid, and while he may not have been played in that position at WAFL, isn't your point about where they naturally play and have learned their game? Good cover for Hasleby. I actually think we are as well positioned to cover our midfield guns as we have ever been.

Things are looking good for 2007 and 2008 but after that there would be a little uncertainty surrounding our onball division if Hasleby/Josh were injured/suspended. I think we definately need to take a true midfielder early in the 2007 draft.

The problem I have with Dunn is that he looked great as a 17 year old because he was built like a man playing against boys. Whether he can step up at afl level is the $64,000 question.

We are certainly in a better position than ever to cover any position on the park, but our list was poorly managed for some time.

 

[kp junior]

Only Judd , Kerr & Buckley have ever come R/U in a F&B at around 40 games and they were not in a PF quality side.

Wasn't Haselby runner up B& F in his 1st or 2nd year? By the way, does anyone where you can find a list of Doig medal results year by year?

 

[dominguez]

Hasleby certainly won the rising star in 2000, not sure of where he finished in the B&F though.

 

[Ripper]

We may need divine intervention. Where is thePope when you need him.

 

[theGav56]

The problem I have with Dunn is that he looked great as a 17 year old because he was built like a man playing against boys. Whether he can step up at afl level is the $64,000 question.

More than happy to reserve my judgement on a young player who has had the amount of injury time Dunn has had.

I am really interested in the topic of where players have mainly player their junior football determining where they are played at AFL. It seems harsh to me, but I know a lot of posters think that because a player has been a half back (Drum) then that is where he is going to be played. I expect that coaches at Junior level would be trying to give their players a broad experience of positions etc. To try and lock a player like Collard in as a Forward pocket at AFL level would be ridiculous. Or Murphy as a backman because that's where he played before coming here.

In the end I think our numbers of young, developing midfielders is fine. the question is whether they are of the quality we need. Haselby and Carr were both very early picks. Bell was our first player on the list (but a different scenario) and has shown he is class. Hopefully a couple of our players can step up, but I think we need a developing star midfielder in the next couple of years.

 

[Freo Shark]

Looking at this from a controversial pov. If we dont win a Cup in the next 3-4yrs we're rebuilding again.

Then the value of Pav may well be greater in his trade value than his on-field value over the next 2-3yrs. It may well be something Schwabby may encourage and thereby hopefully provide a extension to the window or kicker to the rebuild??

My thoughts anyway.

 

[theGav56]

Shark, in 3-4 years time we will have another crop of 12 youngsters, which is a fair proportion of our list. Plus the guys from this year, who seem like they are reasonable types. So rebuilding is an ongoing equation.

And, in the end, if The Pav heads elsewhere then that would be a tough pill, but there would be no way a half decent club would look at offering someone of his ilk.

 

[dominguez]

Looking at this from a controversial pov. If we dont win a Cup in the next 3-4yrs we're rebuilding again.

Then the value of Pav may well be greater in his trade value than his on-field value over the next 2-3yrs. It may well be something Schwabby may encourage and thereby hopefully provide a extension to the window or kicker to the rebuild??

My thoughts anyway.

I would be disappointed if the club offered our captain up for trade as a 29 year old who has remained loyal for over a decade.

If we haven't won a flag in 3-4 years it is more likely that Schwab would be the one departing.

 

[Freo Shark]

I dont like the idea of Pav ever playing for another club.

But as a discussion point alone, look at the 24-26 group alot of them will be in the twilight of their careers in say 2-3yrs. The Carrs, will be gone or nearly so. We dont know what youngsters we'll have. We could easily be rebuilding, or looking for a edge to tip us over ?

Maybe just maybe it maybe worth letting him go rather than fight tooth and nail to keep him, if hes that hard to convince and bond and have to go thru every renewal period with this drama, .

Dom, If Schwabby hasnt got us a cup then its not necessarily his fault..try the coaches..try the players.