All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[sr36]

The post that generated all the anger was this.



I don't see any reference to Islam or the Muslim community. It is tragic, unfair and sad that the Muslim community are unfairly associated with terrorism. I don't think vindaloo expressed any form of discrimination here and was unfairly jumped on, probably based on his prior posting and views.

I think that the tensions that are in this thread are also present and probably more magnified in the wider community.

I think many of us here, myself the most, need to take a deep breath. It's been a hard six or so months.

In the context of this thread it was clear what he meant and became clearer when he clarified it. I'm confident that you'd be livid about anti-Semitism if it was the equivalent assumption about Jews.

As the only one of us whose actually lived the context, you've got every reason to be emotionally invested and drained by it all. The real victims of war aren't us angry keyboard warriors - it's those who are personally affected. It must be a ******* tough time. Hopefully it finishes soon - unfortuantely I don't think its aftermath will finish for decades. Bloody tough times for both Israelis and Palestinians.

 

[vindaloo]

The post that generated all the anger was this.



I don't see any reference to Islam or the Muslim community. It is tragic, unfair and sad that the Muslim community are unfairly associated with terrorism. I don't think vindaloo expressed any form of discrimination here and was unfairly jumped on, probably based on his prior posting and views.

I think that the tensions that are in this thread are also present and probably more magnified in the wider community.

I think many of us here, myself the most, need to take a deep breath. It's been a hard six or so months.

Thanks Zev, and no I have never clarified I meant Islamic Terrorism. Isn't white nationalism just as likely as per Burgess ASIO report. The guy was wearing an Australian Rugby League top, from that moment it looked like ASIO was going to have its work cut out for it.
The other thing is Zev, I don't know many Jewish people so to meet one is something of a novelty for me but being on the other side of Melbourne from your area, but I'll make it clear to you that I don't have any problems with Islam and that's pretty much a fact. although is has been insinuated that I'm Islamaphobic or anti-arab which is nonsense. Well, I have friends, acquiantences, work colleagues who are Arab and there's NEVER been a problem with me or my views in my experience. Every day I'm having face to face connections with very diverse people, and they all really like me for some reason! In here though, it's clear cut. But all the evidence in the real world suggests me being Islamaphobic is a ludicrous suggestion. I've even said many times the War on Iraq was a disgrace, I never supported it, or that I never voted or liked the politicians who were a part of it.


Ultimately, it's starting to seem that for whatever reason, I should be held to a higher account, something to do with power plus prejudice or something or rather, as if I was the CEO of BHB Bulletin. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[gouki88]

The third sentence is also interesting. It's done to coerce gov'ts or the population.....it's never done by gov'ts. Somehow living under the threat of being bombed and starvation is not being terrorised. As they say, "To the victors, the spoils".

It is generally recognised in terrorism scholarship that the term terrorism is not suitable for the actions committed by states, because it does not capture the extent to which they can cause massive harm

 

[Markfs]

Thanks Zev, and no I have never clarified I meant Islamic Terrorism. Isn't white nationalism just as likely as per Burgess ASIO report. The guy was wearing an Australian Rugby League top, from that moment it looked like ASIO was going to have its work cut out for it.
The other thing is Zev, I don't know many Jewish people, I'll make it clear to you that I don't have any problems with Islam. As far as me being Islamaphobic or anti-arab which has been insinuated. Well, I have friends, acquiantences, work colleagues who are Arab and there's NEVER been a problem with me or my views in my experience. Every day I'm having face to face connections with very diverse people, and they all really like me for some reason! In here though, it's clear cut. But all the evidence in the real world suggests me being Islamaphobic is a ludicrous suggestion. I've even said many times the War on Iraq was a disgrace, I never supported it, or that I never voted or liked the politicians who were a part of it.

Ultimately, it's starting to seem that for whatever reason, I should be held to a higher account, something to do with power plus prejudice or something or rather, as if I was the CEO of BHB Bulletin. It's getting ridiculous.

Windy,

I genuinely like your posts. You do analysis of your previous posts which rarely seem to capture their content, but I must admit that I dont really concentrate on your content anyway. I see it more as entertainment. The other aspect is that you give your position on various matters like the iraq war and islamaphobic, when you assume someone out there cares about your position. Having said that, I would never ban you if i was a mod... you reflect a large portion of australiana.....

 

[Markfs]

It is generally recognised in terrorism scholarship that the term terrorism is not suitable for the actions committed by states, because it does not capture the extent to which they can cause massive harm

what is the "it" that causes massive harm....terrorism by men with knives or terrorism by bombing of urban areas?

 

[gouki88]

what is the "it" that causes massive harm....terrorism by men with knives or terrorism by bombing of urban areas?

It is generally a matter of both scale (states can cause much greater & prolonged harm) and principle (states are obliged to not behave in such a manner). States and state-sponsored actors can and have behaved in terroristic ways, but I think that steps into war crime territory myself

 

[Markfs]

Genuine lol. I will pay that one.

Nah, Markfs isnt half as bad, the terrifying or perhaps admirable depending on your point of view reality is I think he genuinely believes the wackadoodle stuff he comes up with, its level of nuance and sophistication recalling a bad year 7 english report in it's sumptuous ignorance, rather than just reaching around for any available grenade to throw for the lulz.

well i'm glad that you read my posts. I saw that earlier that you referred to someone being attention-seeking. Arent we all seeking attention in this forum? Surely someone playing the role of being a horse is out for attention. If we werent trying to get the attention of others, we wouldnt be posting on a forum. That seems common sense to me, as you would say.

 

[Markfs]

It is generally a matter of both scale (states can cause much greater & prolonged harm) and principle (states are obliged to not behave in such a manner). States and state-sponsored actors can and have behaved in terroristic ways, but I think that steps into war crime territory myself

To me that origina definition of terrorism seems to exclude non-gov't terrorism - excuse the irish. I would think that the kids in gaza experiencing life in a prison all their lives and then being bombed and starved for 6 months are experiencing terrorism. The war crimes thing seems to me to be some technical term that has no impact on the common joe in the street.

 

[Markfs]

i think getting a thumbs up from windy is a possible example of terrorism...

 

[vindaloo]

To me that origina definition of terrorism seems to exclude non-gov't terrorism - excuse the irish. I would think that the kids in gaza experiencing life in a prison all their lives and then being bombed and starved for 6 months are experiencing terrorism. The war crimes thing seems to me to be some technical term that has no impact on the common joe in the street.

It seems Maggie and Mark and others in the past few pages are having a discussion on what defines terrorism.

One poster makes for a tendency in the thread?

I was being polite in my previous post. You're a germ.

Others have alluded to terroism commited by Israel of which you had no qualms about. You seem to want to hold me to a higher account for some reason.
Sorry for the one example I gave, I knocked off work early and was about to do a workout, winning bigfooty arguments is sometimes not number 1 on my agenda.

BTW all the insults you've leveled at me reflect poorly on you and not me. You know this.

 

[Mauvais Cheval]

well i'm glad that you read my posts. I saw that earlier that you referred to someone being attention-seeking. Arent we all seeking attention in this forum? Surely someone playing the role of being a horse is out for attention. If we werent trying to get the attention of others, we wouldnt be posting on a forum. That seems common sense to me, as you would say.

hey I'm glad you read my posts too Marky Mark. Read, at least, if not understand.

I love this post because it is exhibit A of why your posting is so bad. Anyone posting is attention seeking, therefore anyone posting is as much an attention seeker as Windy Poo; Or you for that matter. A master class in reductionist vacuosity.

That's the second time you have had a dig about my horseness. Not a fan of equines Mark?

 

[gouki88]

To me that origina definition of terrorism seems to exclude non-gov't terrorism - excuse the irish. I would think that the kids in gaza experiencing life in a prison all their lives and then being bombed and starved for 6 months are experiencing terrorism. The war crimes thing seems to me to be some technical term that has no impact on the common joe in the street.

You can think whatever you want, they are experiencing things worth than terrorism

 

[JB1975]

It seems Maggie and Mark and others in the past few pages are having a discussion on what defines terrorism.



Others have alluded to terroism commited by Israel of which you had no qualms about. You seem to want to hold me to a higher account for some reason.
Sorry for the one example I gave, I knocked off work early and was about to do a workout, winning bigfooty arguments is sometimes not number 1 on my agenda.

BTW all the insults you've leveled at me reflect poorly on you and not me. You know this.

I’m glad to hear that winning BF arguments isn’t high on your agenda.

How much disappointment could one person take?

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

When I was a child, my older brother lets say picked on me, if I dobbed on him to mum, I was the one in trouble for dobbing.

Dobbers - phwww

Presuming similar rates of physical decay, there will be a day you will be strong enough to snuff out your brother with a pillow

Play the long game

 

[ZEV]

In the context of this thread it was clear what he meant and became clearer when he clarified it. I'm confident that you'd be livid about anti-Semitism if it was the equivalent assumption about Jews.

Look, given the sad and tragic circumstances I am a little ashamed to say I had a chuckle at this…

 

[sr36]

Others have alluded to terroism commited by Israel of which you had no qualms about. You seem to want to hold me to a higher account for some reason.
Sorry for the one example I gave, I knocked off work early and was about to do a workout, winning bigfooty arguments is sometimes not number 1 on my agenda.

BTW all the insults you've leveled at me reflect poorly on you and not me. You know this.

It's an emotive term that often gets used inaccurately due to its emotional impact.

But that's not what you were doing. You were using it accurately, but making a prejudiced assumption.

 

[Mauvais Cheval]

Presuming similar rates of physical decay, there will be a day you will be strong enough to snuff out your brother with a pillow

Play the long game

That may not be a viable assumption though. Eldests have to develop a certain degree of resilience and pure rat cunning to forge a path, while younger siblings get to coast along in the slipstream and this can make them soft and susceptible.

Might have to arrange some ponies for you leon123 just to make sure.

 

[sr36]

That may not be a viable assumption though. Eldests have to develop a certain degree of resilience and pure rat cunning to forge a path, while younger siblings get to coast along in the slipstream and this can make them soft and susceptible.

Might have to arrange some ponies for you leon123 just to make sure.

Don't trust the inconsistency of decaying over time, Leon, or those troublesome ponies. Just get a gun.

 

[Markfs]

You can think whatever you want, they are experiencing things worth than terrorism

i agree. it seems strange to me that we use a technical term like war crimes to categorise it but we cant refer to it as terrorism. At any rate, the categorisation is of little importance

 

[leon123]

That may not be a viable assumption though. Eldests have to develop a certain degree of resilience and pure rat cunning to forge a path, while younger siblings get to coast along in the slipstream and this can make them soft and susceptible.

Might have to arrange some ponies for you leon123 just to make sure.

hey donkeys are my friends (none of these miniature dwarf horse creatures called ponies). Donkeys are super tough, they bight, they kick and stomp. Not only that, they enjoy a beer and have super-cool ears

 

[Markfs]

hey I'm glad you read my posts too Marky Mark. Read, at least, if not understand.

I love this post because it is exhibit A of why your posting is so bad. Anyone posting is attention seeking, therefore anyone posting is as much an attention seeker as Windy Poo; Or you for that matter. A master class in reductionist vacuosity.

That's the second time you have had a dig about my horseness. Not a fan of equines Mark?

i actually thought equines were horses and the like.....is there special pronoun use that i need to comply with? Actually, lets end it here. This doesnt interest me.

 

[sr36]

i agree. it seems strange to me that we use a technical term like war crimes to categorise it but we cant refer to it as terrorism. At any rate, the categorisation is of little importance

There's a lot of reasons Mark. Courts and laws being the most practical. We're not going to nor should we bar virtually every Israeli entry into Australia due to having been part of the IDF - regardless of how this war unfolds, but we will bar everyone we know to have been a Houthi rebel. They're very different groups in terms of our view of legitimacy. One group has a legitimate internationally recognised legal right to exist and their citizens a right to work for them. It's a different category for a good reason. Even if that doesn't matter if you're an innocent victim of either's actions

 

[Markfs]

its strange to me that religious people are supposed to be concerned about the next life or whatever their outer-worldly focus, and yet they wear funny hats or have strange hair. It seems to me that they need to stress their importance but i'm not religious.

 

[Markfs]

There's a lot of reasons Mark. Courts and laws being the most practical. We're not going to nor should we bar virtually every Israeli entry into Australia due to having been part of the IDF, but we will bar everyone we know to have been a Houthi rebel. They're very different groups in terms of our view of legitimacy. It's a different category for a good reason. Even if that doesn't matter if you're an innocent victim of either's actions

I know the practicalities but I do wonder about your example and the person who pushes the button to drop the bombs.... state sanctioned, I suppose. Give unto caesar as jesus might say...

 

[sr36]

I know the practicalities but I do wonder about your example and the person who pushes the button to drop the bombs.... state sanctioned, I suppose. Give unto caesar as jesus might say...

If someone is deemed guilty of war crimes whilst working for the IDF or the Iranian military, it's a different story. But it won't and shouldn't be the whole of their military employees - regardless of whether the military apps atud oversteps Australia's lines. Admittedly it may be the whole Iranian military or anyone who has worked for them currently due to our sanctions - not sure.