All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[IlovethePies]

How do the US benefit from his death?

The US, through its proxy Israel, is seeking to assert full domination over the Middle east because it is such a geostrategically crucial area in terms of resources (oil ) but also in terms of its location (close to both Europe and Central Asia), and therfore critical global trade routes. The US and its NATO allies all support Israel because they are all seeking a redivision of the Middle East. One of the main obstacles to their unrestrained domination is Iran, which has a network of proxy forces, and is also building alliances with both Russia and China (which are also targets of the US goverment)
Political instability in Iran creates opportunities for the US, through its Israeli client regime, to create provocations against Iran, and potentially create a casus belli for all out war against Iran.

 

[ZEV]

I just did. And I stand by what i posted.
Absolutely.
The US government is funding Israel to carry out genocide.
I don't see the Iranian government carrying out genocide anywhere.

Just checking… you do realize that Hamas is a proxy agent of Iran….

 

[Markfs]

Australian citizens are at risk of being prosecuted under Australian law if they commit, or are complicit in crimes being perpetrated by the Israeli Defence Forces in Gaza.

Since the commencement of the Gaza war, when the Israeli government issued an order to 360,000 military reservists to engage in the onslaught of Gaza, multiple dual Australian-Israeli citizens returned to Israel to fight in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF). This development saw some Australian media outlets appearing to celebrate the fact that Australian citizens were being called up to join the brutal onslaught of the beleaguered population of Gaza.

Although the IDF does not release official statistics in relation to serving foreign nationals, the Australian Centre for International Justice has reported estimates of up to 1,000 Australians currently serving in the IDF or being active reservists.

I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for more courts... but i doubt our spineless gov't would do anything. Personally, I think that if you fight for another country, you should give up australian citizenship.

 

[IlovethePies]

Just checking… you do realize that Hamas is a proxy agent of Iran….

What is your point? Hamas is not carrying out genocide.

 

[IlovethePies]

Australian citizens are at risk of being prosecuted under Australian law if they commit, or are complicit in crimes being perpetrated by the Israeli Defence Forces in Gaza.

Since the commencement of the Gaza war, when the Israeli government issued an order to 360,000 military reservists to engage in the onslaught of Gaza, multiple dual Australian-Israeli citizens returned to Israel to fight in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF). This development saw some Australian media outlets appearing to celebrate the fact that Australian citizens were being called up to join the brutal onslaught of the beleaguered population of Gaza.

Although the IDF does not release official statistics in relation to serving foreign nationals, the Australian Centre for International Justice has reported estimates of up to 1,000 Australians currently serving in the IDF or being active reservists.

I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for more courts... but i doubt our spineless gov't would do anything. Personally, I think that if you fight for another country, you should give up australian citizenship.

This is just another example of capitalist hypocricy. Any Australian who signed up for Islamic fundamentalists was immediately condemned as a criminal and wherever possible prosecuted with the full force of the law. But when Australians sign up for the terrorist IDF, they are celebrated as heros.
Proves one thing only: the "war against terrorism" is a total fraud.

 

[ZEV]

What is your point? Hamas is not carrying out genocide.

They killed 1200 Israeli's in a day. They were only stopped by a military operation. The one you call a genocide.

They have clearly stated their intent is the destruction of Israel.

They have clearly stated that they will continue to attack Israel.

 

[IlovethePies]

They killed 1200 Israeli's in a day. They were only stopped by a military operation. The one you call a genocide.

They have clearly stated their intent is the destruction of Israel.

They have clearly stated that they will continue to attack Israel.

There are just so many ways to reply to this absurd post.
1) The IDF was responsible for killing hundreds of Israelis on that day, due to "friendly fire" (the "Hannibal" protocol)
2) Killing hundreds of innocent Israelis was a horrible tragedy, but compared with the massacre of over 40 000 Palestinian innocents, it is not comparable.
3) the political phenonomen of Hamas is the result of decades of Israeli oppression, economic strangulation and repeated murderous military assaults on the Palestinians who have been trapped in Gaza ever since 1948 when Zionist terrorists drove the Palestinians out of the land they had occupied for centuries into the enclave of Gaza.
4) Hamas is not the aggressor. The aggressor is the militarised Israeli state which, through the statements of its demented right wing representatives, have repeatedly expressed their intention to annihilate the Palestinian population, whom they regard as "animals"
5) oh...and one other small point...there is overwhelming evidence that the Israeli government was well aware of an imminent attack by Hamas on October 7, and was even aware of the exact nature of the attack, but took the decision to stand down border guards on that day - in other words, to allow the attack to proceed, in order to create the pretext for the genocidal onslaught that we are currently witnessing.

 

[Markfs]

israeli leadership across the spectrum has come out fighting against the ICC's decision to charge the chief murderer.....in a typical israeli tactic, they have questioned the morality of the action....these guys really like irony..

hopefully they will fly netinyahoo to the hague in an old us helicopter....but unfortunately he's been cloned and there are dozens of little nets ready to continue with this strategy of extermination

 

[Markfs]

There are just so many ways to reply to this absurd post.
1) The IDF was responsible for killing hundreds of Israelis on that day, due to "friendly fire" (the "Hannibal" protocol)
2) Killing hundreds of innocent Israelis was a horrible tragedy, but compared with the massacre of over 40 000 Palestinian innocents, it is not comparable.
3) the political phenonomen of Hamas is the result of decades of Israeli oppression, economic strangulation and repeated murderous military assaults on the Palestinians who have been trapped in Gaza ever since 1948 when Zionist terrorists drove the Palestinians out of the land they had occupied for centuries into the enclave of Gaza.
4) Hamas is not the aggressor. The aggressor is the militarised Israeli state which, through the statements of its demented right wing representatives, have repeatedly expressed their intention to annihilate the Palestinian population, whom they regard as "animals"
5) oh...and one other small point...there is overwhelming evidence that the Israeli government was well aware of an imminent attack by Hamas on October 7, and was even aware of the exact nature of the attack, but took the decision to stand down border guards on that day - in other words, to allow the attack to proceed, in order to create the pretext for the genocidal onslaught that we are currently witnessing.

Its a strange thing but I've seen quite a few examples of the israeli right talking about killing the palestinian animals and treating every palestinian as a member of hamas, but i havent seen someone from hamas or any palestinian go on about exterminating israel. Not once in the last 6 months. All i've seen are various israelis and various world politicians and media telling the world that hamas wants to destroy israel.

I've seen videos of israeli soldiers humiliating palestinians, and killing them of course, but I havent seen a palestinian in gaza make a threat against the israelis in the many street interviews that I've watched on aljazeera. They have complained about getting shot, or they have called on their god to extract revenge but I havent seen a palestinian go off his brain as i've seen israeli settlers do. I know the israeli apologists will say that i need to watch more US tv.

And let me add to your list that hamas has also resulted from the israeli strategy to encourage it and fund it so that it could be used as a reason NOT to give the palestinians their land back. The israelis created hamas, Its influence was in decline in gaza and their resurgence is because of the israeli murders.

 

[Markfs]

The clooneys have a target on their heads. Expect some bad things to happen to them in the coming years.

 

[sideswipe]

The US, through its proxy Israel, is seeking to assert full domination over the Middle east because it is such a geostrategically crucial area in terms of resources (oil ) but also in terms of its location (close to both Europe and Central Asia), and therfore critical global trade routes. The US and its NATO allies all support Israel because they are all seeking a redivision of the Middle East. One of the main obstacles to their unrestrained domination is Iran, which has a network of proxy forces, and is also building alliances with both Russia and China (which are also targets of the US goverment)
Political instability in Iran creates opportunities for the US, through its Israeli client regime, to create provocations against Iran, and potentially create a casus belli for all out war against Iran.

Almost a certainty it was a CFIT. Fog and varying terrain are not the friends of a helicopter pilot.

Suggesting that it was an assassination? That would be a neat trick deep inside Iran.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[JB1975]

As I listen to the butcher express his disgust at being called a butcher, and as I encounter people who see nothing egregious about Israel's campaign, I can only conclude that they don't look upon the Palestinians as human.

They've denied the humanity of these people for so long that they no longer see the crime of murdering them in their thousands.

Israel has degraded itself.

 

[ZEV]

Its a strange thing but I've seen quite a few examples of the israeli right talking about killing the palestinian animals and treating every palestinian as a member of hamas, but i havent seen someone from hamas or any palestinian go on about exterminating israel. Not once in the last 6 months. All i've seen are various israelis and various world politicians and media telling the world that hamas wants to destroy israel.

I've seen videos of israeli soldiers humiliating palestinians, and killing them of course, but I havent seen a palestinian in gaza make a threat against the israelis in the many street interviews that I've watched on aljazeera. They have complained about getting shot, or they have called on their god to extract revenge but I havent seen a palestinian go off his brain as i've seen israeli settlers do. I know the israeli apologists will say that i need to watch more US tv.

And let me add to your list that hamas has also resulted from the israeli strategy to encourage it and fund it so that it could be used as a reason NOT to give the palestinians their land back. The israelis created hamas, Its influence was in decline in gaza and their resurgence is because of the israeli murders.

 

[JB1975]

Every time I'm reminded of the extremism and hatefulness of Hamas, I also remember that Netanyahu has privileged Hamas at the expense of more moderate voices.

While propping up Hamas and allowing the transfer of millions of dollars to it, Netanyahu also played the game of marginalising the Palestinian Authority.

It's almost as if Israel wants to create as extreme a threat as possible, to justify the most extreme possible response.

 

[Markfs]

i haven't heard much of israel's starvation strategy......is it working? They probably need to flatten rafah to really get the ball rolling. The good thing about israel's current strategy is that irrespecitve of how many palestinians they can kill now, the population that survives will be affected for decades. Just think about the lost limbs...the psychological trauma...the kids who have seen family members with crushed heads....you have to admit that israel is doing a great job and I just dont agree with some of these claims that it is losing.

 

[Markfs]

Every time I'm reminded of the extremism and hatefulness of Hamas, I also remember that Netanyahu has privileged Hamas at the expense of more moderate voices.

While propping up Hamas and allowing the transfer of millions of dollars to it, Netanyahu also played the game of marginalising the Palestinian Authority.

It's almost as if Israel wants to create as extreme a threat as possible, to justify the most extreme possible response.

i think israelis dont need this extremism to get rid of the palestinians. They lost that need decades ago. It's really something to cater to the americans who are sitting there in middle america living in a make believe world of freedom justice and liberty. And in the end, the oldies dont care either. The illusion has been smashed for the young, but they will leave college and turn out like their parents. Reminds me of the hippies of the 60s who turned into the generation that is now funding israel's weapons.

 

[Black_White]

Poor Netanyahu. It will be years before he can have his day in court.
Because they have to catch Putin first!
What a toothless tiger they are.

 

[Markfs]

The prosecution has applied for arrest warrants. The court needs to agree to it..... and there are preliminary matters before the court...money in accounts....free trips to jerusalem.....overnight stays with gal gadot....parts in the next ironman movie...and then some possibilities after the decision....lifetime harassment....

 

[Markfs]

Biden was speaking in defence of Netty at Jewish American Heritage Month when he was defending Netty....figures... The last time he spoke, I'm sure he was at some jewish event somewhere. Does he ever bother to go to an italian club...or a greek disco?

 

[Markfs]

Some US Republican lawmakers were even more forceful in their criticism of the ICC prosecuting Israel on Monday.

“My colleagues and I look forward to make sure neither Khan, his associates nor their families will ever set foot again in the United States,” Republican Senator Tom Cotton wrote on X.

And so it begins...the reason elected officials are shit scared of israel is because it doesn't allow dissent. We may feel sorry for the people in gaza being in a collective jail for 20 years, try looking in the mirror....

 

[JB1975]

Some US Republican lawmakers were even more forceful in their criticism of the ICC prosecuting Israel on Monday.

“My colleagues and I look forward to make sure neither Khan, his associates nor their families will ever set foot again in the United States,” Republican Senator Tom Cotton wrote on X.

And so it begins...the reason elected officials are s**t scared of israel is because it doesn't allow dissent. We may feel sorry for the people in gaza being in a collective jail for 20 years, try looking in the mirror....

The more Israel has degraded itself, the more the US has become more obvious in its own degradation.

There has been a turning for the worse. The international rules-based order set up after WWII was always a fragile and unreliable thing; now it's being treated with as much disdain as a Palestinian life.

 

[Markfs]

The more Israel has degraded itself, the more the US has become more obvious in its own degradation.

There has been a turning for the worse. The international rules-based order set up after WWII was always a fragile and unreliable thing; now it's being treated with as much disdain as a Palestinian life.

i think you're being a bit dramatic about this. Israel really hasn't changed the goal since the beginning in 48. It has just got a bit braver over the years and used its lobby in the US and the US has responded since the 67 war when the israelis showed that it could set an agenda in the middle east.

I would argue that australia has degraded itself more since WW2 ingratiating itself with the US, hoping to stay as a mate and get protected against the chinese. We've followed the US into half a dozen wars that we wouldnt have normally. We got lied to about iraq and took it on the chin ...howard always struck me as a guy who would clean shoes with his tongue. I said at the start of this war ....way back earlier in the thread that i couldnt see why we were blindly backing israel. I knew the general reasons then and they've just become more clear over the journey.

I understand your concept of degradation is different and has something to do with morality but I think israel and myself would argue that morality doesnt exist on the world stage. Idealism gets crushed and we'll see that in the coming months. The US election will happen, the kids will go back to school and palestinians will probably be in a worse place than they are today. And israeli leaders wont go near a jail.

You'll notice that the whole of the israeli leadership on both sides have backed netty. They all have a common goal and their petty differences arent going to come between them and the promised land...the control of greater israel. The palestinians in gaza and the west bank could learn a lesson in solidarity from these guys.

 

[JB1975]

i think you're being a bit dramatic about this. Israel really hasn't changed the goal since the beginning in 48. It has just got a bit braver over the years and used its lobby in the US and the US has responded since the 67 war when the israelis showed that it could set an agenda in the middle east.

I would argue that australia has degraded itself more since WW2 ingratiating itself with the US, hoping to stay as a mate and get protected against the chinese. We've followed the US into half a dozen wars that we wouldnt have normally. We got lied to about iraq and took it on the chin ...howard always struck me as a guy who would clean shoes with his tongue. I said at the start of this war ....way back earlier in the thread that i couldnt see why we were blindly backing israel. I knew the general reasons then and they've just become more clear over the journey.

I understand your concept of degradation is different and has something to do with morality but I think israel and myself would argue that morality doesnt exist on the world stage. Idealism gets crushed and we'll see that in the coming months. The US election will happen, the kids will go back to school and palestinians will probably be in a worse place than they are today. And israeli leaders wont go near a jail.

You'll notice that the whole of the israeli leadership on both sides have backed netty. They all have a common goal and their petty differences arent going to come between them and the promised land...the control of greater israel. The palestinians in gaza and the west bank could learn a lesson in solidarity from these guys.

Morality is part of it. I'm concerned that it's difficult to be the most moral army in the world whilst engaged in an immoral campaign of savagery.

Degradation is also about keeping up appearances. The US has made itself look more foolish and hypocritical than usual, and these things often have longer-term consequences.

No doubt that Netanyahu won't see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a cell, but the latest developments make it clear that Israel has been joyously bathing itself in war crimes.

Again, hard to quantify...but I think appearances matter.

 

[Markfs]

Morality is part of it. I'm concerned that it's difficult to be the most moral army in the world whilst engaged in an immoral campaign of savagery.

Degradation is also about keeping up appearances. The US has made itself look more foolish and hypocritical than usual, and these things often have longer-term consequences.

No doubt that Netanyahu won't see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a cell, but the latest developments make it clear that Israel has been joyously bathing itself in war crimes.

Again, hard to quantify...but I think appearances matter.

Most americans who travel overseas do it as part of the military..... they live in bases and they go into towns set up to service their bodily functions. They come from schools that teach them nothing about anything outside america other than the wars won.

The Dixie Chicks said that they were embarassed to be american and they copped it, even though they were right about the iraq war..

In short, americans couldnt give a stuff what happens at the hague.

Will europe and australia, japan, korea lose faith in the US. If it stops running the world they might, but it wont be because of morality. They have long gone past that.

 

[Markfs]

Recent criticisms by Penny Wong of India are rather bizarre when put in the context of israel.

Penny sticks her chin out and says things about indian minorities at a time when we are trading more with india. Doesn't money always set the agenda?

Why was she so gutless with Israel? Has she been verballed by the US to do some dirty work for them regarding india? You might argue that our relationship with India is so good that it can tolerate a small amount of finger wagging. Maybe we see ourselves as equals? On the other hand, Israel just doesnt tolerate dissent in any form from gentiles. Maybe it's more of a master-servant relationship.

Of course, when you're trying to understand why pollies do certain things, you always need to go back to basics and see if the australian electorate has significant voters who came to australia from india because of their treatment there. That fundamental balance between the money to be made from trade and the donations to party coffers by lobby groups. If there's anything that I've learnt in last few months that it's that twin relationship that underpins the morality of politicians. Of course, the evidence for payoffs and threats are less obvious.